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Well my search for the new upright is well under way now, and typically the budget is increasing all the time hehe.

I have been looking for a top quality upright to replace my flood damaged Kawai K6 (which is still very playable in the meantime and which I still need to sell/dispose of) and have been visiting various UK dealers to try a range of instruments.

So far I have visited 4 dealers and tried the following:

Grotrian 124, 130
Bechstein Academy 124
Zimmerman Z1, Z3
C Bechstein 124 Elegance
Steingraeber 122T
Steingraeber 138
Bosendorfer 130 - out of my price range but heck why not as you don't see them very often hehe!

The Bechstein's in one dealer I found to be thin sounding in the high treble, somewhat lacking in projection, and with bass tones which were quite dark sounding and bordered on 'muddy' when playing chords in the bass. They were very expensive and to my mind did not quite match my expectations of such a premier maker. The actions were not as responsive as I would have imagined either.

Before the Bechstein-ites clamber over and kill me I must say my opinion was significantly improved when I tried another Bechstein 124 at a different dealer. This had a far better feel to the action and an overall 'crisper' clearer tone, but these pianos did not speak to me despite being extremely well made.

The Zimmermans were warmer in tone but again seemed to lack 'punch' and projection in the treble, whilst the bass tone was again warm, bordering on muddied. Priced much more reasonably than the Bechsteins (as you might imagine), these had a very nice action but again did not leap out as anything particularly special. There were noticeable breaks in both bass/tenor and tenor/treble which were not unpleasant but did leave a somewhat disjointed feel. Like having 3 voices instead of one.

I was surprised to see a Bosendorfer 130CL at one of the dealers as these seem to crop up in very small quantities. Despite being well out of my price range (at about £23k list price) I did play this and found it to be an extremely beautiful piano. One thing which may sound extremely petty I found the sharps had a somewhat 'rounded' chunky feel to them, that appeared somehow 'clumsier' and childlike when compared to the more chiselled profile of the Steingraebers' keys on adjacent pianos. I can see why people rave about the Bosie 130 piano but I don't think I would purchase one myself unless I was extremely rich and wanted a host of upright pianos. The tone was light yet warm and sweet sounding and the action very responsive, even to my clumsy and out of practice playing. Beautiful, but not for me. (Bank balance breathes sigh of relief!).

The two Grotrian-Steinweg uprights I tried were extremely pleasing. They had greater 'punch' than the Bechstein and Zimmerman pianos and felt that there was more to be had in terms of range of volume. The larger instrument was big, big, big sounding and the cabinet styling appeared such as to further exaggerate the size of the instrument which was something I found not to my taste. The bass tones were rich, dark and complex sounding whilst the treble was clear and projected well. Likewise the smaller upright shared these tone characteristics to a large extent, though the instrument was less dark sounding in the bass and more 'manageable' if that makes sense? Both were very beautiful instruments with a quite characteristic sound, making it easy to understand why people have a particular fondness for that 'Grotrian sound'. One thing I did notice however, like the Zimmermans, these instruments both had noticeable bass/tenor breaks, The bass, tenor and treble voices of both were all lovely but again felt like 3 different voices, rather than a single voice across a larger range.

Finally then to the Steingraeber and Sohne uprights...... my oh my!

I had never seen or heard any of these previously, but had read about them here and in various other forums and sources such as the Piano Book. I had gone to this particular dealer in the hope they would have some Sauter instruments, as they are one of only 3 listed Sauter dealers in the UK, but sadly no Sauters. They can order them in to purchase, but no longer carry any stock. So my quest to play a Sauter takes me to the north of England next week....

Steingraebers seem to be seen as 'bad investments' here in the UK, where conventional wisdom tells everyone to buy a Yamaha U3.....or SU7 as they hold their value.. or get a Bluthner Model B, Bosie 130 or Bechstein Concert 8 if you want a 'best quality upright'.. whatever... I now understand why these pianos are regarded, (albeit in the cliques of piano circle inner-sanctum) as possibly the best made pianos in the world. Quite simply put, they were extraordinary! The cabinetry has to be seen to be believed - whilst I am not a fan of some of their strange, almost 'marbled' looking black and exotic wood veneers, they are certainly a beautiful thing to behold.

They had a 138 upright on the floor and boy that is a big piano. If the large Grotrian had a big voice, it was nothing compared to this fella. This was a seriously dark sounding piano. The bass was really broody and moody with a power that I think would happily knock most 7ft+ grands out the door. The treble, clear and again well projected with an overall even-ness to the action and tone control that was unmatched save for one other piano in the store. I did not play this 138 monster very much however because it was a) out of my price range by a considerable margin albeit cheaper than the Bosie next to it, and b) this was far too much piano for me to handle - this piano actually felt like it required taming and that it would control you if you did not control it! Melodramatic perhaps but this is a beast of a box! Not sure how well it would work for cheerful Mozart in C major as it feels altogether 'too serious' and dark, like a storm cloud about to burst.

Of all the instruments I have tried so far, the clear favourite is the Steingraeber 122T. It is out of my budget by 30% (a budget already doubled to £10k from when I bought my Kawai) but pending the outcome of the Sauter trial I may have to find some extra funding to purchase this piano. It was extraordinary.

As with the larger 138, the attention to detail and quality of finish on this was remarkable. The keys had an even responsive feel that made everything bar the other Steingraeber feel like they had chewing gum on the undersides! I have never previously played a piano with an action so even, so crisp and so responsive. If you want pppp you can have pppp, ffff equally no problem. Where some of the other uprights felt like you had 'used everything in the tank' and left you wishing you had that little bit more to get out, this was completely the opposite. It was ridiculously controllable and yet left no doubt that there was more there if you could muster the strength to extract it - no mean feat for an upright 'only' 122cm tall.

Unlike its larger brother, this piano did not require taming, but rather seemed ideally suited to whatever you wanted to play on it. Boogie was not scowling and frowning but infectious, making me want to tap my foot whilst I thought of my old classical piano training and my old teacher tutting at such things hehe. Can't wait until I get the bumble boogie up to a respectable speed hehe. Classical pieces came to life even with my clumsy playing, the control I felt I had playing the opening bars of the Moonlight Sonata was a joy, ornaments in some Bach and Scarlatti I could just about remember were light and easily accomplished, quick and lively. To the best of my very limited ability I had no trouble achieving dreamy, thoughtful, lively, cheerful, dour, wistful- anything I could think of this piano seemed happily able to assist, almost without me having to make any conscious adjustment in playing style. It is astonishing. The only gripe I could find with this piano is that unlike my current Kawai, it does not have a sostenuto pedal or hydraulic fallboard. Small beer methinks though a possibly winning point in the favour of the Sauter M130 - should I ever find one to play short of visiting the factory.

So, the quest so far has made me a willing convert to Steingraeber. It is a clear leader amongst anything else I have yet tried. I am likely to have a dilemma ahead.... this piano is out of my budget and doesn't tick all my stylistic points but wow what a piano! I now have to travel to Leeds to play the Sauters.... they have no Mline but they do have a Rondo which shares many of the same features I am told - soundboard, ebony keys, action. I don't want a Rondo as the styling is beautiful but not for me - but it might persuade me to instead order an M130 unplayed... what a gamble - though the M130 has the sostenuto and is in my original budget just.......

It's a dangerous game this piano buying lark..... one could easily become both addicted to trying different instruments and extremely poor in the process. My girlfriend is just glad that we have no room for a grand piano and that I have not expanded my search by sampling grand pianos.... hehe what if.........

Thank you for the interesting and detailed report, Genaa! You've got me quite curious about the Steingraebers with your reference to stylistic issues... you didn't happen to snap a photo or two that you could post, did you?

As for the budget thing, well, many of us have followed the "where there's a will, there's a way" strategy of piano shopping.

Hi Monica,

I did not take any pics of my visits so far but certainly will on any return visits.... one dealer looked quite bemused by watching me writing notes on the various instruments I was playing and asked if I was buying for myself or someone not present... they probably thought I was a 'spy' sent from competing dealers to snag details of pricing etc hehe.

The 'stylistic points' I refer to when assessing the very limited downside of the Steingraeber are really quite petty things. Ideally I prefer a piano with a split lid, a hydraulic fallboard (for those times when friends children are over so they cannot 'slam' the fall shut) and a sostenuto pedal rather than celeste. These are all small things I guess as sostenuto can be largely replicated by half-pedalling I suppose (or the addition of a sostenuto pedal for around £1500 extra). I have a strong feeling I will be going back to look again at the Steingraeber so will hopefully be able to take some pics of their instruments then....

We don't hear often about premium verticals. Your impressions of the tones are particularly interesting.

Sostenuto + slow fall fallboard would make for a difficult decision, if you should prefer the Steingraeber's tone. In the states, Sauter's polished ebony 122 is c.$4k lower than Steingraeber's.

Homogeneity across the registers did not used to be so highly prized as it is now.

We love piano search stories. Please keep us updated.

Your quest report reminds my of my fairly recent search for a top upright. Several posts are in the archives. Try searching under lilylady upright (s)

I too loved the Steingraeber upright although it took me a while to get used to the action. Once I did, I was in love. Alas it was a shiny one, although new one to my furniture specs could be ordered. Your prices there are much more tame than here though!

I also liked the Grotrians. Very much. I didn't notice the breaks that you mentioned though. I did notice the breaks on the Bechstein Concert 8's.

Sauters were very nice. The M series was great although I still don't even use the sostenuto pedal on my grand. I look forward to your assessment of them. Here it was quite expensive as well.

One that I also really liked, and would suggest playing, is a Bluthner. They have a rich pure tone. The 48(9) in was quite big enough.

Enjoy the search!

lilylady's threads are DEFINITELY worth reading, Genaa, so please do search the archives. (I really should've bookmarked them, darn it!)

fwiw, here's my thoughts on the two stylistic issues you mentioned. I don't have a slow-close fallboard (M&H doesn't offer them), and when I was shopping I initially felt that was a disadvantage. Truth be told, with the piano in my house, the lack of a slow-close fallboard doesn't bother me at all. I actually like being able to lower it quickly if I'm in a rush, and I've never had a problem with guests or kids banging their fingers with it.

What I *do* have on the M&H is a split lid fallboard, or at least it's what I think you're talking about... there's a hinged piece all along the edge that hangs down about an inch when the fallboard is up. And THIS is something I wish I didn't have!! It must be the hinges or something, but every once in a while I'll get an annoying buzz, and I have to riase and lower the fallboard piece up and down a couple of times to get rid of it. I personally think hinges and pianos are a bad mix and anything that minimizes the number of screws on a piano is a Good Thing from a design perspective.

Geneaa,
Since you are from the UK, do they not have Broadwood and Son's? you have looked into all the best piano makes so far that nmae is all I know in my childhood, it is nostalgic , and I wonder How it ranks if it is still on the market. Thanks..

I did try searching the archives but only came up with a couple of posts of Lilylady's and I am not sure I am getting the whole lot - I can only search open forums however as I am not a payed-up subscriber - does that affect the search?

Any further links would be very welcome!!

Cheers,

Searching the archives efficiently requires the skills of a librarian, which I lack. But I've learned that it helps to focus. Go to "search," then enter "quality upright" as the SUBJECT of the thread (not "entire message"), and then enter "lilylady" under forum member name. That will get you a handful of hits, some of which are relevant.

Lilylady\'s upright search thread

The link above, for example, is (as best as I can figure out) lilylady's second thread in her search. In that thread she links to the first thread she started.

Good luck!

Off-topic slightly - but, I have to thank Monica for something she said in the above post.

I've been looking for someone to help me as an assistant to my projects in my studio - I have masses of information collected and lots of projects I have done in file drawers and on the computer. And, I've been working on "Piano Power" for quite a while. The organization of all of this eludes me - I make progress, I get lost, make progress, get side tracked.

You described the kind of person who would have a handle to making an overview and categorize and subcategorize my materials. I need the plan - I can do the work. The plan is elusive for me.

You have given me a big clue here, Monica, when you said..."Searching the archives efficiently requires the skills of a librarian, which I lack."

Thank you so much!

Betty

Off to Leeds to see some Sauter pianos next week....I can't wait!!

What a wonderful search, Genaa. Since I just finished mine, one thing I noticed too is that the soft fallboards on uprights seem to be Asian-inspired. Virtually all of the Tier 3 Asian models had them, but I can't remember seeing one on any of the high-priced European uprights, albeit there are not that many in Southern Cal. I likened it to the Japanese putting cup-holders in their cars 20 years ago.

I can just see some German piano engineer a la BMW saying, "Soft fallboards? We don't put soft fallboards in uprights. We make them good enough so the fallboards never fall down, and if you can't close the lid properly, you shouldn't own it."

But back to the search. I noticed you played Tier 1 uprights that seem out of your budget, which is obviously wonderful to do, but, as you noted, part of a very dangerous game. Are you also planning to dip down into Tier 2, like Schimmel or Seiler? Incidentally, we don't even have Tier 1 uprights here in showrooms, except Steinway, because someone at that price range would buy a grand.

Finally, what's going to happen if after playing the Sauter and any others out there, you just have to own that Steingraeber 122?

The Steingraeber has a clear, warm and singing tone springled with delightful overtones.

Today I indulged in playing my 1955 Steingraeber upright neglecting some important things I had to do. I just get hooked and can´t leave the piano.

Thanks for the further replies folks.

It is certainly dangerous to play expensive pianos hehe - but as I am planning to treat myself, and (no further floods permitting!) this is the purchase of a lifetime so am aiming at instruments that are clearly better than my current standard of playing by a long long way.

I would have liked to play some Seiler instruments but there are none anywhere near me to try - dealers are listed but don't carry stock unless you order and pay up front it seems, if I don't like the Sauter and really cannot afford the Steingraeber then I will look harder for some of the other makers not yet tried.

If I am still not satisfied and remain haunted by the lovely Steingraeber then I will save up for a year or so to generate the extra money required.

I have the clip of your 1955 Steingraeber Pianistical and agree it sounds beautiful - I can well imagine how you could get stuck at the keys for hours hehe

Genaa,

Pls update on this post after travelling to Leeds. Looking forward on your "detailed" review on the Sauter piano too.

I had the opportunity to play a Ragazza and a Rondo yesterday and Wednesday.

I did not spend a long time playing the Ragazza as the Rondo was the closest 'match' to the M lines I am most interested in. However the bulk of the comments below apply equally to both Ragazza and Rondo.

Both had extremely fine cabinetry - the finish was superb and the attention to detail is clear to see.

Both pianos had the R2 repetition action, which at first I found a little heavy compared to the Kawai I have at home, however I quickly got used to that and found both pianos to be extremely responsive.

I would describe the action as 'deep, crisp and even', you get the feeling of being able to play deep into the keys and really control the tone being produced - completely unlike the sensation of 'pushing a button and a sound comes out' which some less well made instruments can feel like!

There is plenty of power in both instruments and yet the ability to play remarkably softly also exists and is easy to control.

I played mainly on the Rondo, as it shares much of the same features as the Masterclass 130. The soundboard is val di fiemme spruce, as in the Mlines and Omega grands. The sharps are ebony and the action has brass damper barrels like the Mlines. Perhaps someone with sufficient tech knowledge can explain the possible purpose of using brass-damper barrels, I am guessing to increase the efficiency of the dampers through increased mass, but would love to learn more!

The tone took me by surprise at first, I am not sure what I was expecting but I find it difficult to describe! It is certainly unusual compared to a lot of other pianos I have tried. It is clear, remarkably clear, but without being bright or thin at the top end. Similarly, the bass notes are clear and articulate, even when playing clustered notes, but there is also warmth there and real depth to the tone.

I find it remarkably difficult to accurately describe the tone characteristics, but to use an analogy I have seen in other threads, where some pianos are descibed as having a 'pearly' tone compared to the 'diamond cut' tone of others. If a pearly tone has a certain 'creamy' character to it, and a diamond tone 'sparkly and multifaceted' then I guess the Sauter tone (to my ears at least) was like a gem stone cut with a very simple, clean cut, a perfectly transparent, beautifully clear-cut sound, extremely 'pure'. Quite entrancing I must say, it draws you in as if to take you somewhere. More like a lens you look 'through' at something, than a stone you look at or into. Perhaps like Amber maybe - that would tie in with Lilylady's 'woodsy' desription hehe!

There is a real 'depth' to the tone, quite distinct from a simple 'bright' characteristic, as may be applied to a typically prepped Yamaha upright for example. Try one if you can - it really is something else! Just to ensure I wasn't imagining things I tried a U3 in the same room and found it to be extremely one-dimensional sounding in comparison. I also tried a Bluthner model B, which although a very sweet tone, sounded in comparison like a piano being played with the practice pedal engaged - so muted sounded as to seem muffled and inarticulate. The Sauter could play just as softly and sweetly as the Bluthner, but also had the ability to really open up and over-power, a tremendous volume and tonal range.

The short version "WOW! what an extraordinary piano - so much so I ordered the M-line 130 on the basis of playing the Rondo"

You didn't need to mention the name. This had to be a Sauter. Isn't it terrific that no matter how dense the structure of the music, you can hear everything that's going on?

I would say "Try one if you can afford it". You may find it maddening if you can't.

BTW, I'm a nosy sort, so I'll ask the question straight up. What was your final price?

Hi Turandot,

Have sent you a pm with price details