Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Pianist Corner Im getting by with my digital piano but...

I realized that you just cannot beat a real grand or even upright piano.

The key action and the sound is just way different and I find playing a real piano more difficult than what I can play on my digital like the back of my hand.

I know that one day, some day, I will need to invest in a real upright or grand piano, but what brand?
I go to several stores and of course, the salemen only talk about how great their Steinways, Kawais, or Yamahas are, but I want an objective guide to buying a DECENT priced piano good enough for a professional to play and be satisfied but not so expensive that I have to take out a bank loan like Im buying a car.

Anyone here have any comments or advise as to what is the thinking man's piano that is good enough for a professional (Im not the professional) but not extreme like a 15000+ plus piano?

I only know of the names: Yamaha, Kawai, Steinway, Bluethner, Zimmerman. My parents and some friends of ours have a Zimmerman and I dont know, maybe they have the low end , but it is not the greatest piano, what is good out there and what would you get sensibly? Thanks.

It is better that you post this on the Piano Forum.


Regards,

Hi briiian13, the best "objective guide" out there is Larry Fine's "The Piano Book." You can order it right here on PW through the link on the right side of the page.

briian13:
not so expensive that I have to take out a bank loan like Im buying a car.

Not that I am wishing to encourage debt, but I'd sooner take out a bank loan to buy a decent piano which (if well-maintained) should give good service for 20 years at least, rather than an anonymous mobile collection of metal and plastic that is worth 50% of its new price after 3 years and tending towards pretty much nothing after that :rolleyes: .

-Michael B.

Try to find a little used piano of the high tier brands (including Yamaha's U1 and uppwards). Then you probably get the best buy. Every piano depriciate during years, but if not heavily used, some 10...20 years mean nothing, but making the tuning more stable.

And in order to save the piano, use your digital for finger stretching exercising, learning new pieces etc.

Which kind of digital do you have? New digitals with graded hammer have really much better actions than many uprights (eveness, response, fast repertitions) but there are of course things that differ in the feeling.

The biggest difference lies IMO in the use of the sustain because of the full resonance of an acoustic.

What you cannot play on a digital, you can not play on a real piano . vice versa may be the case.

Hi, thanks for all advice.
I have a Kawai ES4.
As I get better and continue practicing on it, I find certain small limitations on it, I will be looking at pianos in the near future.

I strongly disagree that the key action and
sound is "way different" on a weighted digital,
as opposed to an acoustic. There should
be no problem switching from digital
to acoustic and back again, at any
time. Anything you learn on a digital
is completely transferable to an acoustic.

A good keyboardist is a good keyboardist,
no matter what kind of keyboard instrument
he plays on primarily: a fine harpsichordist
or organist will be a fine pianist without
any special piano training.

Gyro, that is completely ubsurd. Organ and harpsichord is a totally different thing altogether from piano. I mean, one could make a transition to organ and/or harpsichord, but it would not be overnight.
Anyhow, Brian, you need to get a grand piano because uprights really aren't that great either. I played on one for a while, but I outgrew it in eight months, and it had to be replaced with a grand. you can find grand pianos like Kawaii and Yamaha that are not really expensive yet are quality pianos that will last you for many years to come. I would highly recommend this especially if you wish to carry on with your piano studies. I'm in college right now, and I know I probably would have trouble if all I had was an upright and a keyboard to practice on.

thanks contra.

just one question. i do love the look of a grand and everything but why do pianists say that a grand can allow them to do more things?
how do you outgrow an upright , what was it preventing you from doing?
just curious, i always wondered this as i hear that alot by many skilled players.

A grand piano action feels different and has a better repetition system than the upright piano. Also, longer grands tend to have better sound quality and a wider range of dynamics.

These grand piano "advantages" do not apply to very small grands, though. Some prefer the sound (and sometimes even feel) of a larger upright to a 5' and smaller grand-- myself included.

MK's suggestion to get your hands on the copy of the Piano Book and the most recent pricing supplement is always a good place to start. Not unlike digitals, peoples' preference for acoustic pianos is highly individual-- two great pianists may like two very different actions or sound qualities.

I outgrew my upright because I needed to do things like play with a wider range of dynamics with a large volume which is a difficult thing to do on an upright. also, grands have more control to their action, so the player has more choices as to what he/she wants to do with the music.
BTW, I have a 6'7" Yamaha concert grand that is only twenty years old, and it cost me only 10,000. I saw a Kawaii grand, about 6'3", at a store that was only about 6,000. It played great. So, it's possible on find a cheaper grand piano that will serve your needs.

What is actually being said here is
that you'll sound better on an expensive
grand, which is true. But your playing
has not really changed. The problem with
this attitude is that the person will then
use more expensive pianos to "improve"
his playing, but his playing has not
really improved at all. He sounds better
because an expensive grand will make
him sound better, but his playing has
not really gotten any better.

There was a recent post by someone who
just bought a Steinway grand and now
feels that he dare not even play his
$500.00 Privia digital anymore because his
"touch"--which has dramatically "improved"
since he got the Steinway--will then
be "ruined" by the "completely different"
action of the digital. But his touch
has not really improved at all; he just
sounds better on the Steinway because
it is 100 times more expensive than the
digital. I tried to point this out to
him, but he's absolutely convinced that
the Steinway has dramatically improved
his playing, and there's no force on the planet
can shake his belief in this.

I'm siding with Gyro on this one. Piano playing is to a large extent an ear-controlled art. Unless the instrument is out of tune or has major defects, a good player should be able to bring out from such an instrument, regardless of make or model, the intended musical effects.

I have never had a grand piano and I have turned out just fine. You can find extremely bad grand pianos just as easily as bad uprights (well maybe a little less easily!).

Doesn't matter how great your piano is, your playing is not going to be affected much by it -- by far the best advice is to play on as many different pianos (with a range of quality) as possible, so that you will be as versatile as possible.

I also agree - when it comes to making music, the pianist plays a bigger role than the piano. I've sat down to play digital keyboards and acoustic pianos that I thought were "crappy" - and then heard a professional-level pianist coax music out of those instruments that I couldn't dream of getting out of a Steinway D!

A good piano will give you expressive control that many digitals can't quite match (pedaling, harmonics, dynamic range). But a good pianist has to be able to make music on a piano-shaped object at times...

Piano playing is much getting accustomed to the response of the action and having control over the force/speed at which every key should be hitted.

A top tier piano is, no doubt, the best thing to play on, and hence, to excercise on. The action gives the pianist the best opportunuty to express himself, to perform runs evenly, to get out the finest nuances of pianissimo... Not to forget how to master the sustain pedal, which differs a lot from the trivial on-off on cheep digitals.

You cannot learn piano playing on an organ, a keyboard, or a harpsichord. Of course you can learn to master all these instruments, but that is different thing.

However, the touch of many modern digital pianos are better, i.e. make it easier to perform, than the touch a mediocre upright, with sticking, or heavy keys, and sloppy repetition.

So you can very well improve your playing on a digital. Contrary, on an unadjusted (very frequent phenomenon), or badly designed aucustic piano you cannot improve your technique - only increase your finger strength and stamina.

Remark, the listener will always hear how well you control your playing, and from that he will conclude about your skill. Not from the sound - harsh, bright or warm, - of the piano. The audience will not blame you for the piano being out of tune, but for a missing note, which was caused by an action with unnormal response.

When do we get numerical test results to support our opinions about different actions?

As owner of a Bechstein grand, a Förster upright and two digitals (Yamaha P80 and Kawai E3), I say very few uprights can match a top class grand what comes to the action, and especially the repetition.

But most amateurs will never reach that level of playing where this feature would be of any significance. I am still after 50 years of playing, satified with the action a GOOD upright (e.g. Bechstein, Yamaha U1)

I do not need the sostenuto pedal either.

But what else is generally better on grands:

- ergonomy
- sustain pedal motion
- music desk

P.S. Even a professional pianist cannot alter the crappy sound of a crappy piano, but he will play in a way that makes you focus on the music, not on the sound.

And if the action is crappy with "dumb" keys, of lacking dampers, or sustain pedal out of order there is no pianist that can correct that.

For my money there is far too much focus on the instrument and not enough on what we do with it. Good digital, good upright, decent grand - all fine.

And I entirely agree with Jan Erik's PS above - a good pianist overcomes the limitations of the instrument (within reason). I have turned my nose up at school uprights once or twice and then heard my (professional concert pianist and teacher) sound fantastic on the same piano. I don't moan about pianos now - I just play the thing as best I can. I recommend this approach!

A