Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

SEARCH
the Forums & Piano World

This custom search works much better than the built in one and allows searching older posts.
(ad) End Stage Fright
End Stage Fright
(ad) Pianoteq
Latest Pianoteq add-on instrument: U4 upright piano
(ad) Pearl River
Pearl River Pianos
(ad) P B Guide
Acoustic & Digital Piano Guide
PianoSupplies.com (150)
Piano Accessories Music Related Gifts Piano Tuning Equipment Piano Moving Equipment
We now offer Gift Certificates in our online store!
(ad) Estonia Piano
Estonia Piano
Quick Links to Useful Stuff
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers
*Organs

Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano Accessories
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Piano Books
*Piano Art, Pictures, & Posters
*Directory/Site Map
*Contest
*Links
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Screen Saver
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords
Topic Options
#370376 - 08/19/03 04:42 PM That squiggly line
ericz Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/02/03
Posts: 20
Loc: Los Angeles
I gather that when a chord has a squiggly line next to it itís supposed to be played as an arpeggio. Iím a little confused as to exactly what this means. Exactly how is this supposed to be played, i.e. how fast, which direction, etc? Some time soon hopefully Iíll get a piano teacher to answer these silly questions, but for now you guys are all Iíve got.

Thanks!

Top
(ad) Piano & Music Accessories
piano accessories music gifts tuning and moving equipment
#370377 - 08/19/03 06:03 PM Re: That squiggly line
Luke's Dad Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/28/03
Posts: 1426
Loc: Mid Atlantic
If it's the mark I'm thinking of, then it means the chord should be rolled from top to bottom in quick succession.
_________________________
Purveyor of Yamaha, Petrof, Pearl River, and Kohler & Campbell pianos.

Top
#370378 - 08/19/03 06:04 PM Re: That squiggly line
Luke's Dad Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/28/03
Posts: 1426
Loc: Mid Atlantic
Either that, or your two year old has broken into the black pens again! \:D
_________________________
Purveyor of Yamaha, Petrof, Pearl River, and Kohler & Campbell pianos.

Top
#370379 - 08/19/03 06:06 PM Re: That squiggly line
CrashTest Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/23/01
Posts: 4110
It is usually from the bottom note up, one by one, but sometimes, it can be from the top note down. This is usually indicated by a down arrow, and is mostly found in contemporary scores.

Top
#370380 - 08/19/03 06:07 PM Re: That squiggly line
Nunatax Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/13/03
Posts: 704
Loc: Belgium
 Quote:
Originally posted by Luke's Dad:
If it's the mark I'm thinking of, then it means the chord should be rolled from top to bottom in quick succession. [/b]
Erh, isn't it from bottom to top? Might be me getting a little crazy but that's what I always thought ;\)

Rgds,
Michiel
_________________________
Some can tell you to go to hell in such a manner that you would think you might actually enjoy the trip, but that is far more polite than civil - JBryan

Top
#370381 - 08/19/03 06:57 PM Re: That squiggly line
Ted Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/03/02
Posts: 1500
Loc: Auckland, New Zealand
It's also important where the beat goes. I've always understood that it means a rapid upward roll with the beat note at the top and each note held after playing; any variation from this should be written in full at least once. Actually it's probably a good idea to do that anyway.
_________________________
"It is inadvisable to decline a dinner invitation from a plump woman." - Fred Hollows

Top
#370382 - 08/19/03 09:43 PM Re: That squiggly line
virtuoso_735 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/08/03
Posts: 996
Loc: California
Could the squiggly line be a trill. Probably not, since your description didn't fit, but I'll tell you how to play it if it was a trill. Play the chord, but the top note is played continues playing, going up a whole or half step and back to the original note. Remember to play it within the beat.
_________________________
"If music be the food of love, play on." -William Shakespeare

Top
#370383 - 08/19/03 10:29 PM Re: That squiggly line
love the late romantics Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/13/03
Posts: 297
Loc: Cowtown
Just to clear things up since there have been conflicting answers.
If you are refering to a vertical swiggly line that is to the left of a chord it means that the chord should be arpeggiated(sp?) or rolled really quickly from the bottom note to the top note.
I hope that that is the musical symbol that you are refering to.

LTLR
_________________________


A rock pile ceases to be a rock pile the moment one man contemplates it bearing within him the image of a cathedral.

Top
#370384 - 08/20/03 12:13 AM Re: That squiggly line
Kreisler Offline



Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 13706
Loc: Iowa City, IA
Yes. The squiggly line indicates a rolled chord. It's almost always rolled from bottom to top.

It's rolled in a speed consistent with the character of the piece. For example, Brahms Op. 116#1, roll it fast. Brahms Op. 116#4 and Op. 116#6, roll 'em slow. (I was practicing 116 today. \:\) )
_________________________
"If we continually try to force a child to do what he is afraid to do, he will become more timid, and will use his brains and energy, not to explore the unknown, but to find ways to avoid the pressures we put on him." (John Holt)

www.pianoped.com
www.youtube.com/user/UIPianoPed

Top
#370385 - 08/20/03 12:23 AM Re: That squiggly line
Palindrome Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/22/01
Posts: 3910
Loc: Chicago, IL USA
My understanding is that the meaning depends upon the era the music was written in. Baroque arpeggios are top note played first (listen to the Aria in the Goldberg Variations, measure 11), classic and later works are bottom note played first (listen to the arpeggio that begins the last movement of the Beethoven's Op 57 [Appassionata] sonata - the bottom chord, which has a wiggly line, is rolled up, the right hand chord, without a line [and marked "secco", or "dry"] is then struck).
_________________________
There is no end of learning. -Robert Schumann Rules for Young Musicians

Top
#370386 - 08/20/03 08:12 AM Re: That squiggly line
Kreisler Offline



Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 13706
Loc: Iowa City, IA
That's just a quirk of the Gould recording. Most recordings just roll it bottom to top like normal.
_________________________
"If we continually try to force a child to do what he is afraid to do, he will become more timid, and will use his brains and energy, not to explore the unknown, but to find ways to avoid the pressures we put on him." (John Holt)

www.pianoped.com
www.youtube.com/user/UIPianoPed

Top
#370387 - 08/20/03 08:36 AM Re: That squiggly line
newpianoplayer Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/12/01
Posts: 362
Loc: CANADA
You should hold each note down after you roll them
_________________________
Please excuse me. I have to go practice

Top
#370388 - 08/20/03 09:42 AM Re: That squiggly line
Palindrome Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/22/01
Posts: 3910
Loc: Chicago, IL USA
 Quote:
Originally posted by Kreisler:
That's just a quirk of the Gould recording. Most recordings just roll it bottom to top like normal. [/b]
No, it's not. It's the way Kirkpatrick realizes it in a downward direction in his (1938) edition of the score, and I thought it was the way I'd always heard it. Frederick Neumann, in his Ornamentation in Baroque and Post-Baroque Music (Princeton, 1978) devotes a 19 page chapter to the arpeggio, and states that arpeggios can go either up or down, but that down is more rare. He thinks that Kirkpatrick adoped the downward reading because the melody note, at the top of the chord, needs to be on the beat. Neumann recommends that the arpeggio be executed upward, with the other notes before the beat, (getting the melody note on the beat) but that seems to go against C.P.E. Bach's dictum that ornaments are played on the beat.
_________________________
There is no end of learning. -Robert Schumann Rules for Young Musicians

Top
#370389 - 08/20/03 11:30 AM Re: That squiggly line
Luke's Dad Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/28/03
Posts: 1426
Loc: Mid Atlantic
 Quote:
Originally posted by Nunatax:
 Quote:
Originally posted by Luke's Dad:
If it's the mark I'm thinking of, then it means the chord should be rolled from top to bottom in quick succession. [/b]
Erh, isn't it from bottom to top? Might be me getting a little crazy but that's what I always thought ;\)

Rgds,
Michiel [/b]
Sorry, backwards thinking I yesterday had. You are absolutely correct! Sorry for that hiccup between my mind and the computer! \:\(
_________________________
Purveyor of Yamaha, Petrof, Pearl River, and Kohler & Campbell pianos.

Top
#370390 - 08/20/03 03:09 PM Re: That squiggly line
ericz Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/02/03
Posts: 20
Loc: Los Angeles
To clarify, itís the vertical squiggly line next to a chord. Thanks for all the helpful responses. To summarize, it sounds like the answer is ďplay the notes in rapid succession, from the bottom up (usually), holding all notes for the duration with the emphasis on the top note.Ē Hopefully I got it right. I really need a teacher.

Top
#370391 - 08/02/05 12:53 PM Re: That squiggly line
Anodos Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/14/05
Posts: 63
Loc: Washington state
But does the top note go on the beat?

 Quote:
To clarify, itís the vertical squiggly line next to a chord. Thanks for all the helpful responses. To summarize, it sounds like the answer is ďplay the notes in rapid succession, from the bottom up (usually), holding all notes for the duration with the emphasis on the top note.Ē Hopefully I got it right. I really need a teacher.
I'm looking at two pieces that have arpeggios notated: Liszt's Sonetto 104 del Petrarca, and an Earl Wild transcription of Rachmaninoff's "In the Silent Night." In both pieces, there's a melody in the right hand, and arpeggiated chords in the left. The first of Rachmaninoff's Moments Musicaux also has this type of notation on the last page.

My first impulse was to roll the chords from bottom to top, with the right-hand melody note last. The problem with this is that it sometimes makes it hard to keep the melody moving along. Ideally, I think I should be able to make the melody sound like a soprano singing with arpeggiated accompaniment -- not straining to fit in with the left hand. So I was starting the arpeggiated chord before the beat, in order to end it and play the melody note on the beat.

A friend suggested another approach: Play the melody note and the first (lowest) note in the bass together, on the beat, and quickly roll the left hand chord up.

So, I'm confused! I think I've heard these pieces played with the arpeggiated chord beginning on the beat, the melody note last, which causes the melody note to lag behind the beat when there's a rolled chord in the accompaniment. But I'm not sure if that's correct -- or whether it's really a matter of style instead of a question of correctness. I'd be grateful for some enlightenment. Thanks!
_________________________
"If I had fingers, I'd be dangerous."

Top
#370392 - 08/02/05 01:32 PM Re: That squiggly line
aznxk3vi17 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/13/02
Posts: 701
Loc: Johns Hopkins University
Simply put:

Unless otherwise specified, play rolled chords from bottom to top. The ONLY case I have ever seen with top to bottom is the aria in the Goldberg Variations.

Top
#370393 - 08/02/05 02:15 PM Re: That squiggly line
Nina Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/13/01
Posts: 6467
Loc: Phoenix, AZ
Generally, you'll start it on the beat. It's a fast roll, and you'll want to fit it in within the time given for the entire chord. (In other words, watch out that you don't slow down to make it a super-long roll, unless you're aiming for a dramatic gesture.)

Also, pay attention to where the squiggles are. If they are separated (one squiggle for the left hand, one for the right) then you roll the two chords simultaneously. If the squiggle is a single line running all the way from the left hand chord to the right hand chord, you start with the bottom-most note in the left hand, continue through that chord, then start with the bottom note in the right hand and continue through that chord... one big long roll, one note at a time.

The tops-down roll is relatively common in pop music.

Top
#370394 - 08/02/05 04:56 PM Re: That squiggly line
Anodos Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/14/05
Posts: 63
Loc: Washington state
So, is this the consensus: the bottom note on the rolled chord occurs on the beat, and the top note (the melody note) will be delayed, that is, off the beat?

I'm not sure I always like the sound of that. Are there some cases where it makes sense to have both the bottom note and melody note on the beat?
_________________________
"If I had fingers, I'd be dangerous."

Top
#370395 - 08/02/05 10:54 PM Re: That squiggly line
pepper Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/13/01
Posts: 171
Loc: SF CA
No. Start the rolled chord before the beat so the melody comes on the beat. Anticipate the beat.

Top
#370396 - 08/03/05 04:36 AM Re: That squiggly line
Ronel Augustyn Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/14/05
Posts: 527
Loc: Bloemfontein,SA
Agree with pepper, melody must be on the beat.

But I think if you look at melody, you can decide which way you should roll. The melody note always comes last, so identify the melody note and start at the opposite direction. But usually the molody is the top note, so roll from bottom to top.

Hi from South Africa!
_________________________
lallie

Top
#370397 - 08/03/05 10:42 AM Re: That squiggly line
Nina Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/13/01
Posts: 6467
Loc: Phoenix, AZ
Actually, I think the right answer to the beat question is, "it depends." \:D

Top

Moderator:  Brendan, Kreisler 
What's Hot!!
HOW TO POST PICTURES on the Piano Forums
-------------------
Sharing is Caring!
About the Buttons
-------------------
Forums Rules & Help
-------------------
ADVERTISE
on Piano World

The world's most popular piano web site.
-------------------
PIANO BOOKS
Interesting books about the piano, pianists, piano history, biographies, memoirs and more!
(125ad) Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
Sheet Music
(PW is an affiliate)
Sheet Music Plus Featured Sale
Download & Print Sheet Music Instantly
sheet music search
sheet music search

sheet music search
(ad) HAILUN Pianos
Hailun Pianos - Click for More
(ad) Lindeblad Piano
Lindeblad Piano Restoration
Who's Online
135 registered (accordeur, Almaviva, AmateurBob, 40 invisible), 1507 Guests and 43 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Stats
74206 Members
42 Forums
153513 Topics
2249583 Posts

Max Online: 15252 @ 03/21/10 11:39 PM
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Insanity
by Polyphonist
3 minutes 55 seconds ago
Yamaha P140 sluggish keys : how to fix?
by Bambell
7 minutes 48 seconds ago
Cristina Perri - HUMAN piano cover
by SAO
47 minutes 7 seconds ago
Valentina Lisitsa plays Michael Nyman!!
by ShiroKuro
Today at 10:17 PM
Chopin Op28 No 20
by Arizona Sage
Today at 10:12 PM
(ads by Google)

Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World | Donate | Link to Us | Classifieds |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter | Press Room |


copyright 1997 - 2014 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission