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Just to conclude, I want to say that it seems that the last great tragedy we may be facing is a further acceptance and desensitization towards things that would have horrified humans even 100 years ago - the violence in our movies, the extremely disgusting acts on reality TV shows, the list goes on. I fear we are losing our touch with emotion (which is what makes it so easy to digest this type of media when we might have otherwise previously been driven to illness), and as a result, it is much more difficult to be imaginative, creative, and thus we are digging our own hole in many more ways than one.

So again, I apologize for drifting so far off topic, and perhaps it was for nothing, but even if its to get it all off my chest, it feels alot better. Alot of what I said is not intended to be part of the discussion, it is aimed squarely from composer to any other composers who might be reading this, so that, in some small way, I might be able to inspire them to write music that will inspire others to do many more things.

I feel inspired just by reading it, so I know it has a chance of getting through to someone. These are the thoughts that help me to find a voice in my works, a voice in the Romantic style that is crying out against the tragic environment around in it, and a voice in the Impressionist style that is, while at times similarly melancholic as that Romantic voice, also cheerful and thoughtful, looking forward to another period in human history where things like the World Wars would never have been possible, would have been unthinkable, and then perhaps the 20th century would have turned out entirely differently.

And so perhaps, by the end of this, I have given the greatest insight possible of all, and it seems all these words were truly necessary. I think we are reaching the same dangers we reached in the early 20th century, except perhaps this time the repercussions will be much more severe than they were the first time around (which as we all know were quite severe to begin with).

For it seems to me that it was the tragedy that more than anything introduced dissonance into the music, and for that reason I cannot criticize any single composer - they were just reflecting what they were taking in around them. If anyone has ever heard of the story behind Messaien's "String Quartet for the End of Time", perhaps they will really see what I mean by all this.

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Actually, that last bit reminded me about having done an essay on the topic for an Essay Writing class that was given a good mark, so perhaps the points I made in it will serve to fully explain what I'm trying to say here.
Here's a copy of the essay, sorry if the editing is a little messed up:

Last post, I promise!

Quote


A Second Renaissance Is Needed In Classical Music

Conversations, articles, and reports on the topic always tend to yield the same
result - the Classical concert-going public of today are primarily interested in hearing
music of the past. A look at the history of Western music reveals an abrupt change in
harmony style during a period of time ranging from the onset of the 20th century until
sometime after the Second World War - from largely consonant music to largely
dissonant. Consonance is a quality of music that pleases the ear, its notes ring
comfortably with one another, and there is no tension in harmony. Dissonance conversely
creates much tension, it’s harsh and biting to our ears; and yet we need some of it in our
works for variety (i.e.: resolving dissonance to consonance), and generally for a sense of
departure from the "home base" that is consonance. When dissonance is left unresolved, it
leaves an unpleasant aftertaste in the palette of our artistic minds. This is not what the
concert-going public is paying the big bucks for. Yet curiously, this is the most prevalent
quality in the Classical music of today, dubbed as “Contemporary”. Granted, this
dissonant music does appeal to the intellectually appreciative among us - much can be
said about its’ mathematical properties, among other things. One could go as far as to say
that this music appeals much more to our left brains, and while that’s all well and good,
something is wrong with the picture. For over 2000 years, music was squarely directed at
our right brains, our emotional selves, and to whatever ends, it still does in many of the
non-classical styles. One could argue that the reason Classical has evolved through its’
various styles (Baroque, Romantic, Impressionist, etc.) is because the composers at
certain time periods felt that the music of their recent past had expended itself as far as it
possibly could, that it was time for something new. The Contemporary sound has itself
been in style for well over seventy-five years now, about as long as many of those before
it. Would it not be then safe to say that Contemporary has also had its time? And if so,
where we do go from here, if it’s seemingly all been done? While there’s no exact answer
to this question, two qualities stand out as the most likely characteristics in the next,
inevitable movement in Classical music - (1) the new music will have highly integrated
electronic aspects to it (electronic music technology has long surpassed its infancy), and
(2) the music will reclaim the complex yet predominantly consonant quality it had during
its last spell, the Impressionist period.


An interesting theory, which has been shared widely in the society of music
history enthusiasts, states that the progression of music is closely linked with not only
other forms of art (such as literary and graphic), but also world events and the mentality
of citizens as a result. In the medieval times, during the rise of the church, the music was
bound closely to it, and as the (first) Renaissance came into full bloom the music did as
well. Next, Absolute music (music not bound to text) came into the world at the same
time as did the free thinkers of the Baroque and Classical periods (17th and 18th
centuries), while Romantic music closely mirrored our studious descent into the depths of
human behavior and emotion through psychology and psychiatry of the 19th century, and
its' intensity built ever higher just as the Industrial Revolution began changing the world
forever. Finally, the Contemporary movement first saw its earliest works when the dream
the world was building began to crash down. Our technology found its’ most unspeakable
uses during the World Wars, and the morale of musicians began to dwindle. How could
they write pleasant sounding music during a time of such atrocities? The pioneers of the
Impressionist movement, Debussy and Ravel, were both crushed in spirit by the First
World War. Composers such as Stravinsky, Prokofiev and Rachmaninoff all had to depart
from their homelands as a result of this war. But the foremost example lies in the
biography of the French composer Olivier Messiaen:

(3) "When the Second World War broke out, Messiaen, then thirty-one, was drafted into the army. In June 1940, he was captured by the Germans and sent to a concentration camp. Among the prisoners were three other French musicians: a violinist, cellist, and a clarinetist. Messiaen began to write a chamber music piece for them, to which he soon added a piano part. The composition of this monumental work's eight movements - the Quartet for the End of Time - helped sustain him through this terrible episode in his life. When the quartet was finished, Messiaen and his friends decided to organize a performance. The violinist and clarinetist had managed to hold on to their instruments; a cello with a missing string was found in the camp, as well as an old, out of tune piano. The concert took place on a bitterly cold night in January 1941, in front of five thousand prisoners."

Needless to say, the music he wrote did not sound like a walk in the park. And it
seems that our classical music has never quite recovered from the dissonant depths it sank
down to. This is not to say the music is bad, it is simply not appealing to our ears the way
the other styles were, and still are. It is possible that we are in a period of indecision, and
once again, current events seem to tell the tale for us. Will our world finally come out of
this 20th century phase of hostility (which is especially dangerous given the ever-
increasing advancement of technology), and will our music subsequently reflect it?
Classical composers have always been the ones composing purely for the sake of the
music itself, there has never been a commercial aspect to it, as with many modern styles.
Knowing this, we can safely assume that it will continue to follow the trends it always
has, constantly shadowing everything else happening in the world around us. By this
logic, however, if the world continued with its’ hostile tendencies, so too the music would
remain like it is now. But wait - the theory doesn’t always apply itself in this order,
sometimes it’s exactly the other way around. Sometimes the music is what’s directing the
order and progression of things, and inspiring people to become the decisive individuals
insofar as which direction the world will turn next.


If this is the case, my message becomes twice as urgent. We need to be writing the
kind of music that will inspire us all to take the steps we need to take; to get the world
where we all want it to be. And it won't be predominantly dissonant music, not by a long
shot. As intellectually appealing as it is, it's not going to inspire anyone. Sure, the music
has progressed away from the sorrowful character it had during our times of greatest
tragedy, towards a more experimental state, but this is still not enough to do more than
intrigue us for a short time. We need music that will awaken us at once, make us feel like
we can all help make the change we’re hoping for. We feel as though we are powerless
to affect change beyond the small piece of the world we are involved with, but what we
are really lacking is the inspiration. Popular music may have the ability to inspire us for a
fleeting moment of time, but it is the Classical music that can inspire us for a lifetime. As
we run out of time to make those inspired changes, before our resources are fully depleted
and our ecosystem broken, a second renaissance in Classical music is needed, now more
than ever.

Footnotes and Bibliography

(1) This paper not only stands in its’ own right, but is also an introduction to a forthcoming Research paper, entitled “The Third Music Revolution – Integration of Electronic and Acoustic Music”

(2) CD 1 Provides necessary examples of consonance’s last stand – Impressionism.
Four works of Debussy and Ravel each are provided.

(3) Quote Source: “The Enjoyment of Music”, 8th Edition, Joseph Machlis and Kristine Forney, 1999.

CD 2 provides necessary examples of one of dissonance’s most sorrowful product– Olivier Messiaen’s “Quartet for the End of Time”. All eight movements are provided. It is interesting to note that the 6th and 8th movements, the Praises to Jesus, do however contain consonant harmonies, much in the style of the Impressionists. Perhaps these were the movements that gave hope to the prisoners.

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Ok Kcoul, to answer your first and main question.
Yes. It is ok to compose in whatever styles you like to in your early development. In fact it is very helpful because you get to understand other composers ideas and how it works and how it sounds. In fact take it a step further I suggest you literally copy scores note for note...piano scores, quartets, orchestral...whatever, just literally copy it. There is nothing more beneficial then just copying note for note scores...why? because it forces you to study in detail every single note the composer wrote down and in doing so you begin to realize why it works that way and why he or she did certain things.

Now in terms of long term and getting your voice, just continue to heavily research theory and history up until the 21st century. Do your best to expose yourself to all forms of music, understand all forms of music and try to find beauty in all forms of music.

I tell you it hits you like a ton of bricks when you realize something that the whole world but you accepts as true...A while ago a hated Bach, to me he was boring, unemotional, intellectual, yadayada. Then one day I was listening to Les Miserables and there is a scene in the musical where the two main characters engage in this beautiful conterpoint. It's rhythmic...it's engaging, it's great. As I continued to listen all excited about counterpoint I heard the last piece in the first act..it's very cool because it incorporates all the previous themes in one giant counterpuntal mess, that is incredible.

So after this revelation I wanted to go discover other counterpuntal pieces...who better to go to then Bach. So I sat down to listen to some Bach and it was like with a new set of ears...all of the sudden I heard his rhythmic drive, his brilliant use of counterpoint, his genius for form and structure...he was an absolute genius, I heard his brilliant use of harmony. I just sat back and said "this is why he is considered the greatest" I had revelations with Mozart, with Beethoven, with Wagner and especially with 20th century music. And I had all these breakthroughs simply by listening with an open mind, studying and relating music with other music.

So all I am saying is while you find your own voice...do what you feel like you want but study and listen with an open mind...cause it's a journey and you'll make discoveries that you never knew were there or you'll find yourself enjoying things you never enjoyed.

Also I want to end by asking you a few questions about some statements you made above, especially about dissonance in music.

Messians story...what does that tell you about dissonance and what it means in music? To Messian he was in a situation so unbearable that his only natural reaction was to write the most unbearable music possible...it was an emotional response to his situation. So what does that tell you about the necessity for dissonance in music.

Is all dissonance a bad thing? Come on, dissonance has had importance ever since the Baroque period. Scarlatti wrote dissonant music, Bach wrote dissonant music, Mozart wrote dissonant music, Beethoven wrote very dissonant music. So why are you so against dissonance? you know, with out dissonance music would cease to be interesting...no suspensions, appogiaturas, shocking modulations, deceptive chords...you need dissonance.

You keep arguing music needs to be pleasing...that the audience wants to be pleased. Kcoul not all music is pleasing? why because life is not always pleasing. In music we need statements that describe happiness as well as tragedy, anger, and every other variance in emotion. Audiences want that too. They go to a concert to be exposed to art, emotion, and other ideas...not to always be pleased. Also I don't agree with you statement that "nobody can deny the majority of the public is not interested in hearing music of the 20th century, if anything, they want to hear music from the 19th, 18th, and even 17th century." You know many concert goers I talk to find the contemporary pieces the most enjoyable. Some find it exotic, some find it wild, some find it interesting. I always get great feedback about 20th century music on programs.

Also, not all tonal music is pleasing. Just because something is completely tonal (meaning no dissonance) it doesn't make it pleasing. It tends to make it uninteresting, banal, predictable. Sometimes it works but usually you need something to give it some kick even if it's a simple extension, suspension, borrowed chord...Sometimes I find a polychord very pleasing.

Another question is...can the intellectual process by itself be emotionally satisfying for the composer and the audience? I know I have been emotionally effected by strictly intellectual ideas.

Can it still have a profound impact on music if it is merely intellectual?

Who's to say dissonance can't inspire...it's inspired composers for over 4 centuries. I have been greatly inspired by dissonance.

Frankly I find "dissonant" music some of the most appealing and satisfying music written and wouldn't want it written any other way...it wouldn't have the same glorious sound.

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Perhaps you have not seen my point in everything that I have typed. I am distinguishing two very different types of dissonance, one of which I approve, the other not. When dissonance is used with purpose, to resolve, or even as some form of word painting, as done in the Renaissance and early Baroque, it is justified, it is just in my opinion that when it is used flagrantly, without any real purpose, basically just to "slam" a bunch of jarring chords together or make a melody that makes you shudder, it is of not much use to anyone. This distinguished only a very few composers, all the other composers (everyone you mentionned in fact) I highly approve of. And I agree that some tonal music is unpleasant, in fact, very much so. We NEED dissonance, but it NEEDS to be used properly. Without it, for example, we can end up with some rather boring music, like perhaps for instance some of Clementi or Diabelli's fluffier stuff. or perhaps Kuhlau, they all had some pretty unimaginative stuff.

I find that the most pleasant music is quite full of dissonance, but it is logical, it has a purpose, even music where it is almost entirely dissonant (like the French Renaissance motet), depending on the situation, is highly enjoyable. I just disagree with music where it is seemingly used senselessly, just for the sake of it, without any sort of purpose whatsoever.

It seems you might have missed the thesis of my essay because i argued exactly the same thing as you are - we absolute NEED dissonance. And dissonance helps make it more pleasant. But only when used for at least some small reason. I think it is very important that we investigate further ways of extending our concept of consonance, to "find the consonance" in what was previously deemed as being dissonant, rather than abandoning the concept altogether as was done.

So i apologize that, especially, the essay part was very poorly worded, but i was speaking only of pointlessly used dissonance, not the other kinds.

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Originally posted by kcoul058:

So i apologize that, especially, the essay part was very poorly worded, but i was speaking only of pointlessly used dissonance, not the other kinds.
"Pointlessly used dissonance" leads itself to many subjective opinions, I am afraid.

I think that you and young_river are perhaps too far on the other extreme end of this debate, much like the extreme avant gardists but only the total opposite.

The point of music is most definitely not to please. It is to get into the composers head, and see what he was feeling. Sometimes, you will be pleased indeed, but with a good composer, moreso emotionally startled, disturbed, and in the end, satisfied, whether it is through dissonance or not- what matters is the message of the music and how effective it is at communicating the composer's message.

It just so happens that part of communicating a composer's feelings has to do with how the music sounds, so that is why it is slightly absurd that a modern day composer would compose a work in the exact style of a far off period verbatim (like a Mozart type orchestral piece or Chopin piano work).

The reason for that is that those composers had their own specific sound in mind which stemmed from what they heard around them and what they imagined in the future. Surely, that is also what Schoenberg, Webern, Ligeti, and others, have down in the 20th century. To compose completely in an old style is to ignore what changes have been made in music. I can't think of one good composer who has ignored either the past or present. Of course, having a foundation of tradition in music is important, I speak here only in regards to composing in old styles with little modern influence.

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Originally posted by kcoul058:
When dissonance is used with purpose, to resolve, or even as some form of word painting, as done in the Renaissance and early Baroque, it is justified, it is just in my opinion that when it is used flagrantly, without any real purpose, basically just to "slam" a bunch of jarring chords together or make a melody that makes you shudder, it is of not much use to anyone.
Well I got your point and I know that you know that some dissonance is good. Other wise you probably wouldn't like much music...but it's this quote above that still doesn't sit very well with me and the reason is because who's to say what is unjustified or not. If you talking about cluster chords or banging on the key board to slam...well I can think of plenty wonderful uses for that affect. Sometimes thats what I need some big ol cluster chords slammed down in my face. BAM! BAM! real aggresive in your face harmony...sends chills down my spine. And these composers they know exactly what they are doing...You analyze their scores, their harmony it all starts to make perfect sense, but to some it can sound like immature composing or pointless and useless.

But my point is all of those "okay" dissonances that I mentioned, they all led to the "un okay" dissonance. So who is to say whats okay and whats not, whats justified and whats not. Who are we to draw lines and say you can't do this. That only leads to artist restrictions. We make rules in harmony and melody based on what sounds good to us...but they are broken all the time. Parallel 5th's sound ugly...Beethoven uses them all the time. Sonanta form is ____ not by the time Beethovens dead...not by the time Liszt is done with it. A symphony is defined as....then Mahler shows up. So rules, whats justified, what sounds good, it always changing. What sounds like slammed notes and jarring chords to you may sound like great music to someone else. What melody makes you shudder may make perfect sense to somebody else...or maybe it was supposed to make you shudder. So all I'm saying is don't be so quick to dismiss something as pointless or "for the sake of" or unjustifiable.

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I think this leads back to one of the first things i was thinking way back on page one - i'm probably just not exposed enough to this music to understand it. I have yet to study that part of music history in depth, have played very little of its music, and haven't studied the scores much in terms of analysis either, except for the purpose of deciding which pieces within a selection were applicable to harmony and which had Tertian (sp?) additive harmony, etc. I'm intesely looking forward to understanding this music better.

So i agree, I suppose this boils down to my inexperience. I still think however my musical experiment is a valid one and I'm definitely hoping to include some 20th century influence in what my music ultimately becomes. Of course another thing i'll stay steadfast about is my belief that absolutely any simple (two or three voices) combination of notes can be used beautifully, and more complex combinations, while more limited, can be used this way as well.

I'm certainly not talking about chord clusters, in fact I use those quite a bit in Impressionist works as well, they are quite beautiful in the right combinations. But when someone repeatedly hits a bunch of minor 9th and tritones at fff and then goes and does something else... well come on! Where is the musicality in that?

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Originally posted by kcoul058:
But when someone repeatedly hits a bunch of minor 9th and tritones at fff and then goes and does something else... well come on! Where is the musicality in that?
thats what we call heavy metal wink

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yeah, heavy metal is different though wink I love that stuff because I know they're not trying to kid anyone. Maybe I was just looking at it the wrong way all along, and contemporary is the heavy metal of the classical music genre wink

At any rate I still think it's time for something new smile

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kcoul058, I think the inexperience part could be a huge part of it. I felt much the sameway before I opened my mind up, and now I listen to things with a very different mindset. It was a very fast progress, but some people may take longer depending on the amount of time they put into music.

One thing though, you and a few others mention how some modern composers music are unpleasant. Which in particular? I could not imagine anyone not finding substance and pleasure in works of many recents composers, like Ligeti, Messiaen, and even some works by Boulez. (His piano sonatas are hard to digest at first, but they are full of color, and his orchestral works are very interesting at times)

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I'm studying for the last RCM history exam this summer (which covers everything from late Romantic through late Contemporary) so i'll have to get back to you. My plan is to studying all this material in extreme detail (which is necessary to get distinction on the exam anyways) so once that's done I suppose I'll find out where my final opinions really are on the matter. In the meantime, this was a great discussion!

Probably best I start a completely new topic, so we can focus more exclusively on the composition discussion I was interested in pursuing, and leave these arguments behind for good.

Although you didn't mention it here, I believe I noticed someone else asking if you had finished a quartet - was this to perform, or a quartet you composed? If the latter, care to share a little about it? smile

Just to reinforce again the definitely possibility of what you were saying, it was taking me FOREEEVER to pick out a Contemporary piece as part of my repertoire for the RCM performance exam that accompanies these last few theory credits I already mentionned, I must have listened through the entire syllabus for that category, getting my hands on all kinds of different recordings. I could hardly find anything I liked, but managed to boil it down to a selection of Prokofiev's (who we can all agree is one of the more Classically influenced Contemporary composers out there) Vision Fugitives, and the only Sonata of his on the list, #3. While I didn't like enough of the former to make a good contrasting selection, I was just taken aback by this Sonata of his. All my other selections were "musically understood" on first hearing of my choice recordings of them (which I planned to follow as I was learning them until I got my new piano professor), while the Prok Sonata recording, I must have listened to dozens of times, and then something funny happened. It started to really grow on me! Suddenly I could understand the complex form of the piece, the little elements from previous sections, the clever rhythms and progressions, everything about it just struck me as being so original!

Then when reading more about him (as I sure know to do, it is ridiculous to study a major work of a composer whom you know nothing about) it came to my attention that that was exactly his intention, in fact, in his own words, he was saying he didn't want to write the same old "hackneyed" (sp?) works his predecessors had.

And how true that was! So perhaps if I am lucky the same will happen with all the other modern composers I study, and I'll be able to see exactly what they might have been thinking when they wrote what they wrote, and why it made sense to do it just that way.

Thanks for the insight everyone!

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