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#375927 - 11/16/07 08:53 AM that ballade again
hopinmad Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/07
Posts: 1001
Loc: Eryri/Manchester
in the measures where the LH plays quavers (6/4 time) and the RH plays five crotchets in the tiem of 6 then a quick note before the octave, how do you practise it?? coz im strguggling with it!

thanks!
_________________________
Patience's the best teacher, and time the best critic. - F.F.Chopin

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#375928 - 11/16/07 03:47 PM Re: that ballade again
BruceD Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 18889
Loc: Victoria, BC
Well, for those who haven't yet figured it out, "that ballade again" appears to be the Chopin Ballade in g minor, (Op. 23) and the measures in question appear to be measures 170-172.

Then again, I could be wrong, and, if so, all my efforts are for naught. So, thanks for helping us help you, hopinmad!

Now I know there are some who would say - and I won't mention any names - that the only[/b] way to do this is to find the common number of 5 and 6 (30), divide the half measure into 30 equal parts, place each note exactly where it "belongs" and practice it painstakingly slowly with each note exactly in its mathematical place until you get it. Hogwash!

You undoubtedly already have the tempo of the six-note figures well established. For practice, count the measure in 2 strong beats, play the six notes in the LH over and over again, emphasizing the beat on the first note of the group. Once that is rock-sold in tempo, practice the RH alone, five notes per beat, aiming for and stopping on the second beat (on the 4th beat, actually).

Then, hands together, play the RH and LH notes on the first beat together and then "aim" for the second beat with the RH playing five notes and the LH playing six as you've just practiced it. Play only half the measure each time; when playing the first half of the measure, stop on beat 4. When playing the second half of the measure, stop on beat 1 of the next measure.

Then work up to one whole measure similarly.

Regards,
_________________________
BruceD
- - - - -
Estonia 190

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#375929 - 11/16/07 05:04 PM Re: that ballade again
hopinmad Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/07
Posts: 1001
Loc: Eryri/Manchester
"Well, for those who haven't yet figured it out, "that ballade again" appears to be the Chopin Ballade in g minor, (Op. 23) and the measures in question appear to be measures 170-172."

Blimey my posts are becoming yet worse, I didn't relaise I'd neglected to name the piece I was concerning!

Apologies!

I think it's just that I've started quite a few threads about this piece . .

"Then again, I could be wrong, and, if so, all my efforts are for naught. So, thanks for helping us help you, hopinmad!"

You were right about the piece and bar numbers of course, thanks!

"Now I know there are some who would say - and I won't mention any names - that the only way to do this is to find the common number of 5 and 6 (30), divide the half measure into 30 equal parts, place each note exactly where it "belongs" and practice it painstakingly slowly with each note exactly in its mathematical place until you get it. Hogwash!"

Agreed. Thinking the crotchets as to last a quaver and a fifth is not something I would imagine anyone to advocate!

So I didn't try to practise like that, BUT, at the rate the measures improving I'm considering it, regrettably I may add, or maybe neccessary?

I preferred to practise it with your method, and in fact would love to be able to do that for any measures where the hands are playing in different time (and not think of them as in the same time(!)), but I struggle terribly to do that. In fact, where there's triplets against quavers, I believe I use the "hogwash" method and divide the beats into 6, a method which I don't enjoy doing, especially when playing Chopin as he was reputed to have brilliant ability to seperate the hands.

I cannot at all seperate my hands, will it come with time???

Those bars are so much nicer when played exatly as written; not making it six against six but fvve and a grace note against 6, it is like a little charm.

For the now, I'll keep at it my way (your way too), but aim for that note as you suggest.

Thanks!
_________________________
Patience's the best teacher, and time the best critic. - F.F.Chopin

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#375930 - 11/19/07 03:58 PM Re: that ballade again
hopinmad Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/07
Posts: 1001
Loc: Eryri/Manchester
but blimey im struggling with it
_________________________
Patience's the best teacher, and time the best critic. - F.F.Chopin

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#375931 - 11/19/07 07:45 PM Re: that ballade again
Varcon Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/15/04
Posts: 1931
Loc: Mount Vernon, Georgia 30445
BruceD is right--you should get each hand correct rhythmically first--the LH figuration 'rock solid' as he puts it and the RH quintuplet equally solid and gradually put them together until they mesh correctly. It will come with time. The geometric placement suggested, if taken at a very slow pace will put everything in its mathematical position but be deadly dull. You need the spontaneity and freedom that is inherent in this piece to make it work well but also have the rhythm steady and secure. A difficult task to say the least! \:\) Anyway, time and hard work will bring it about.

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#375932 - 11/21/07 07:23 PM Re: that ballade again
gpiu Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/30/07
Posts: 80
Loc: sf bay area
As Varcon mentioned, getting the rhythms correctly simply takes time...In my experience, it makes it easier if you simply focus on the rhythm aspect of the passage. Try programming the rhythm into a digital metronome or computer and simply listen to the beats as you increase and decrease the speed. If you can tap the same rhythm with your hands on say a desk, you will very likely be able to play it on the piano.
FYI percussion players are very good at this.

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#375933 - 11/22/07 12:33 PM Re: that ballade again
hopinmad Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/07
Posts: 1001
Loc: Eryri/Manchester
i cant tap it on the desk!!!
ive realised that being able to do that would mean being able to do it on a pino!
_________________________
Patience's the best teacher, and time the best critic. - F.F.Chopin

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#375934 - 11/23/07 06:12 PM Re: that ballade again
Morodiene Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/07
Posts: 12976
Loc: Boynton Beach, FL
Hmm. I've never played this piece, but it appears to just be a matter of making some decisions and going with that.

First of all, do it without the grace notes, you can add those back in when you get the other notes down. Now, for the 5 vs. 6, you simply need to decide which of the RH notes will be played along with the LH, and which ones will be like a 2 vs. 3. Maybe the first two notes of the RH could be against the first 3 of the LH, then the last 3 of the RH match up with the last 3 of the LH for the first 3 beats of the measure.

Does that make sense?

Then adding the grace not back in, it would just happen before the LH plays on beat 4.
_________________________
private piano/voice teacher FT



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#375935 - 11/26/07 06:02 PM Re: that ballade again
hopinmad Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/07
Posts: 1001
Loc: Eryri/Manchester
It does make sense, but, after some practise on it I have decided by now that the best way for me to learn it is by the slow, dull method of playing each RH note in it's exact mathematical right place, though once that is done I'm going to make a delibrate attempt to 'feel' the 5 against 6.
Does practising it like this pove that the piece is to complicated for me?
Or at least, passages with the hands playing against each other thus are too complicated?

In that case I'd better get practising!!!


Otherwise however, I'm very pleased on how it's coming along, there are no other parts now that I'm struggling with, even the 'con fuoco' seems to fit nicely under my hands \:\) .
_________________________
Patience's the best teacher, and time the best critic. - F.F.Chopin

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