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#383948 - 05/04/06 11:52 AM Re: Black Note Etude
Jan-Erik Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/18/05
Posts: 1302
Loc: Finland
"Singing" on a piano means:

1) The piece you play one or two clear melodies that clearly dominate over the rest (accompagnement). Like in Mendelsson´s "Songs without words".

Staccato is not "singing".

2) The piano has a warm sound and long natural sustain (oppsite to hard or brilliant sond with a strong attack and fast dacay).

I think these two meanings are well established and cannot be disputed.

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#383949 - 05/04/06 02:58 PM Re: Black Note Etude
BruceD Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 17666
Loc: Victoria, BC
Yes, "sing" can effectively be used as a metaphor to describe how to play a melody line in a piano composition. I don't think that was the original "issue" raised here.

It still doesn't justify the use - in the context of a composition of a classical composer - of the word "song" when what, in effect, is a non-vocal work.

As pointed out, it is a generational phenomenon which stems from the fact that much downloaded music from the Internet is generically referred to as "songs".

The confusion - and the ignorance - are compounded when one unknowingly refers to works of composers who wrote not only instrumental works but vocal works - songs - as well.

Regards,
_________________________
BruceD
- - - - -
Estonia 190 in satin ebony

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#383950 - 05/04/06 08:40 PM Re: Black Note Etude
Ted2 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/04/02
Posts: 790
Loc: Auckland, New Zealand
I'll keep out of the song debate, but I do find most renditions of this piece too fast for my taste. I'm enjoying playing it, and other Chopin studies, much more since I've slowed down a little. Most of Chopin's wonderful melodic phrases "sing", and it's hard to make anything "sing" at a uniform ninety miles an hour.
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"Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law" - Aleister Crowley

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#383951 - 05/05/06 03:05 AM Re: Black Note Etude
Derulux Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/06/05
Posts: 5062
Loc: Philadelphia
Normally, I don't do this, but just this once, I will:

 Quote:
[1] And it is just that... yes, yes, we all know that languages develop and change over time, but in common English usage as it stands today, it's just wrong.
Actually, you are wrong. In what you call 'common English', the term 'song' to refer to a 'piece' is absolutely correct. In formal diction, it would be incorrect.

Back to your normally-scheduled poster-remarks:

And thus, when we speak of a piano singing, this is more the definition we are referring to.

But alas, you've known what we meant all along, and only wish to argue for the sake of arguing. So have at it.[/b]
I know exactly what "sing" means, and I know exactly what "song" means. But you cannot pick and choose when you want to use them, and then blaspheme someone else's use. ;\)


PJ: 'sing' by itself is meaningless and, of course... "'Sing' is so ambiguous by itself – even more so because it is an impossible task with the piano – that if you don't explain, the person has absolutely no way of interpreting exactly what you mean."
D: At last, one of them understands! ;\)


I prefer to use the term 'sing' at the piano not in any specific usage, but simply that you are expressing music so it sounds like it's coming from you, not from you to the piano[/b]
But don't you see how arbitrary that is? Without anything further, it is impossible to make the sound of the piano come from you. The sound comes from the piano. It HAS to go from you to the piano. That's the only way a piano sound is made! ;\)

The use of the word "singing" isn't going to confuse people just because pianos don't have vocal cords. I think to most people the metaphor is obvious-- we want to make the piano sound like a singer singing a song.[/b]
It confuses the hell out of me. A piano cannot, under any circumstances, sing...so why would you try to tell me to make it sing? What, specifically, about my TECHNIQUE can I alter to produce this effect that you desire (whatever it is)? THIS is what you should be saying. When teaching a student, you HAVE to get at the CAUSE, not the effect!

Point:
Staccato is not "singing". [/b]
But a singer can sing in a staccato....
The piano has a warm sound and long natural sustain (oppsite to hard or brilliant sond with a strong attack and fast dacay).
[/b]
Actually, compared to other instruments, the piano DOES have a fast decay.


And now, your moment of zen:
and it's hard to make anything "sing" at a uniform ninety miles an hour. [/b]
You don't often drive a car and blast the radio at the same time, do you? :p
_________________________
Every day we are afforded a new chance. The problem with life is not that you run out of chances. In the end, what you run out of are days.

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#383952 - 05/05/06 12:20 PM Re: Black Note Etude
PoStTeNeBrAsLuX Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/31/05
Posts: 2618
Loc: Geneva, Switzerland
Derulux:
 Quote:
Actually, you are wrong.
I don't think so.
 Quote:
In what you call 'common English', the term 'song' to refer to a 'piece' is absolutely correct. In formal diction, it would be incorrect.
You seem to misunderstand the meaning of vocabulary or expressions being "common English" (your interpretation) or in "common usage" or in this particular case "common English usage[1]". "Formal diction" doesn't even enter into the debate. Are you sure English is your first language? ;\)

- Michael B.

[1] i.e. the "common usage (of English)" rather than "the usage of common English." If you google for the phrase "common English usage" (with the inverted commas) and you will find various illustrative examples.
_________________________
There are two rules to success in life: Rule #1. Don't tell people everything you know.

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#383953 - 05/05/06 04:10 PM Re: Black Note Etude
drumour Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/08/05
Posts: 829
Loc: Scotland
Funny use of "blaspheme" too.


John
_________________________
Vasa inania multum strepunt.

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#383954 - 05/05/06 04:16 PM Re: Black Note Etude
drumour Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/08/05
Posts: 829
Loc: Scotland
I think, maybe, those who use words for which they have their own special definitions, or who regularly betray a "creative" attitude to language, should provide us with a glossary of that day's definitions. Then the rest of us would find it easier to stay up to speed.


John
_________________________
Vasa inania multum strepunt.

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#383955 - 05/05/06 04:25 PM Re: Black Note Etude
tenuki Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/06
Posts: 669
Loc: Seattle, Wa
Words are an endless and hopelessly dark labyrinth with no exit. Wander through them at your own risk!
_________________________
Only the humble improve.

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#383956 - 05/05/06 04:48 PM Re: Black Note Etude
PoStTeNeBrAsLuX Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/31/05
Posts: 2618
Loc: Geneva, Switzerland
John:
 Quote:
Then the rest of us would find it easier to stay up to speed.
Indeed. I think that Derulux should feel suitably anispeptic, frasmotic, even compunctuous, to have caused us all such pericombobulation.

- Michael B.
_________________________
There are two rules to success in life: Rule #1. Don't tell people everything you know.

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#383957 - 05/05/06 05:18 PM Re: Black Note Etude
Max W Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/05/02
Posts: 2846
Loc: RHUL
 Quote:
Originally posted by PoStTeNeBrAsLuX:
John:
 Quote:
Then the rest of us would find it easier to stay up to speed.
Indeed. I think that Derulux should feel suitably anispeptic, frasmotic, even compunctuous, to have caused us all such pericombobulation.

- Michael B. [/b]
More indubitable confabulation has never been announced!

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#383958 - 05/05/06 07:18 PM Re: Black Note Etude
pianojerome Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 9868
 Quote:
Originally posted by PoStTeNeBrAsLuX:
John:
 Quote:
Then the rest of us would find it easier to stay up to speed.
Indeed. I think that Derulux should feel suitably anispeptic, frasmotic, even compunctuous, to have caused us all such pericombobulation.

- Michael B. [/b]
by Lewis Carroll


`Twas brillig, and the slithy toves
Did gyre and gimble in the wabe:
All mimsy were the borogoves,
And the mome raths outgrabe.



"Beware the Jabberwock, my son!
The jaws that bite, the claws that catch!
Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun
The frumious Bandersnatch!"

He took his vorpal sword in hand:
Long time the manxome foe he sought --
So rested he by the Tumtum tree,
And stood awhile in thought.

And, as in uffish thought he stood,
The Jabberwock, with eyes of flame,
Came whiffling through the tulgey wood,
And burbled as it came!

One, two! One, two! And through and through
The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!
He left it dead, and with its head
He went galumphing back.

"And, has thou slain the Jabberwock?
Come to my arms, my beamish boy!
O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!'
He chortled in his joy.


`Twas brillig, and the slithy toves
Did gyre and gimble in the wabe;
All mimsy were the borogoves,
And the mome raths outgrabe.
_________________________
Sam

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#383959 - 05/06/06 02:13 AM Re: Black Note Etude
Bernard Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/06/01
Posts: 3857
Loc: North Groton, NH
 Quote:
Originally posted by holystorm:
I think this is one of Chopins greatest songs, but I want to know is it harder to play a song where 90% of the notes are on the black keys, opposed to the white keys?

Thanks. [/b]
Hey, holystorm, Well! You've stirred up a storm! Hee hee.

You are not to be faulted for your use of the word 'song'.

I was fortunate to have a band director in high school who pointed out the distiction right off the bat, and he made sure we were clear about it!! Hee hee.

I gather that by now you see that the word "piece" is the jargon. In classical music a "song" is a "piece" written for human voice (the greatest instrument of all!)

Anyhoo...

The black key etude may well be one of the easiest to master. It was indeed the first one I was taught.
_________________________
"Hunger for growth will come to you in the form of a problem." -- unknown

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#383960 - 05/06/06 03:32 AM Re: Black Note Etude
PoStTeNeBrAsLuX Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/31/05
Posts: 2618
Loc: Geneva, Switzerland
Sam,

Nothing to do with Lewis Carroll this time round: though still a British cultural reference. A little googling will provide the answer. Nevertheless let me offer you my most enthusiastic contrafribularities.... and I shall return interfrastically \:\)

- Michael B.
_________________________
There are two rules to success in life: Rule #1. Don't tell people everything you know.

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#383961 - 05/06/06 03:55 AM Re: Black Note Etude
tenuki Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/06
Posts: 669
Loc: Seattle, Wa
geese guys, you have no excuse, you are obvously already on the internet...

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=sing

substituting 'piano' for 'violin' seems somehow right to me for 1d, and 2a and 2b seem to apply as well. I'm sure many of you have other opinions though...

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=song

Not as clear unforunately, but it does mention short whatever that means.
_________________________
Only the humble improve.

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#383962 - 05/06/06 04:31 AM Re: Black Note Etude
PoStTeNeBrAsLuX Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/31/05
Posts: 2618
Loc: Geneva, Switzerland
tenuki:
 Quote:
but it does mention short whatever that means.
The part that says "a short musical composition with words[/b]?"
 Quote:
Not as clear unforunately
The whole affair is very clear. A piece of non-vocal music is not[/b] a song. At least not in common English usage as it stands today. Perhaps in a few years it might be, via the influence of internet downloading terminology, mp3 players, etc.

Also for Bernard to state that the word 'piece' is 'jargon' is also erroneous[1]. If you ask any educated English-speaking non-musician how to term a non-vocal composition and one of his/her first responses would be 'piece.' The word 'piece' is common usage, and not at all classical music jargon. Indeed, the (mis)use of the word 'song' is a much better candidate for being jargon, seeing as appears to derive from internet downloading / mp3 tagging terminology, where music files (and by extension the music itself, regardless of its vocal/non-vocal content) are referred to as 'songs.'

- Michael B.

[1] Jargon is technical or specialised language used by a specific group of people (trade, profession, hobbyists, etc), and is thus usually not considered common usage. Though of course lots of jargon enters common usage over time: 'song' for non-vocal music may be yet another case.
_________________________
There are two rules to success in life: Rule #1. Don't tell people everything you know.

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#383963 - 05/06/06 04:35 AM Re: Black Note Etude
drumour Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/08/05
Posts: 829
Loc: Scotland
Jabberwocky is an example of creative use of language, not of "creative" use of language. The first is interesting - Russel Hoban, James Joyce, Anthony Burgess; the second is sloppy, arrogant and tedious. The first has been produced by first-rate minds, the second by lazy would-be intellectuals. Was it Humpty-dumpty.....?

John
_________________________
Vasa inania multum strepunt.

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#383964 - 05/06/06 05:07 AM Re: Black Note Etude
tenuki Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/06
Posts: 669
Loc: Seattle, Wa
Come on mr H4xOr, lighten up. I was _supporting_ your position and trying to be funny. Yes it quite clearly says 'with words'. duh.
_________________________
Only the humble improve.

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#383965 - 05/06/06 07:18 AM Re: Black Note Etude
PoStTeNeBrAsLuX Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/31/05
Posts: 2618
Loc: Geneva, Switzerland
tenuki,
Sorry, your attempt at humour was lost on me. And I shall attempt to adopt a lighter[1] tone from now on \:\)

- Michael B.

[1] Though I cannot for the life of me see what there is[/b] to discuss in this matter! ....Nurse! NURSE!!!
_________________________
There are two rules to success in life: Rule #1. Don't tell people everything you know.

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#383966 - 05/06/06 10:22 PM Re: Black Note Etude
Derulux Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/06/05
Posts: 5062
Loc: Philadelphia
If you ask any educated English-speaking non-musician how to term a non-vocal composition and one of his/her first responses would be 'piece.'[/b]
Define "educated". The responses, after all, will vary depending on what type of education you are speaking, as well as what level of education (on the subject, particularly) one has. [1]

-Random break for the sake of breaking.

[1]What purpose do your "footnotes" serve? [q*uote]Oh, my god, a footnote! *whispers* He must be edumacated... [/q*uote]
_________________________
Every day we are afforded a new chance. The problem with life is not that you run out of chances. In the end, what you run out of are days.

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#383967 - 05/06/06 10:52 PM Re: Black Note Etude
valarking Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/17/02
Posts: 2331
Loc: Dallas
 Quote:
Originally posted by Derulux:

Define "educated". [/b]
No.

Say no to needless semantics.

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#383968 - 05/06/06 11:32 PM Re: Black Note Etude
rocky Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/12/05
Posts: 1456
Loc: Louisville, KY
deleted \:D
_________________________
When I reach the place I'm going, I will surely know my way.

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#383969 - 05/07/06 12:07 AM Re: Black Note Etude
concertpianist12988 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/24/04
Posts: 343
Loc: NY
can we get back to the black key etude?

what was that orange rolling about?
_________________________
Yundi Li (http://www.deutschegrammophon.com/play.htms?LINK=rtsp://ra.universal-music-group.com/dgg/yundiLi-liszt-W-COVER.rm)

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#383970 - 05/07/06 12:22 AM Re: Black Note Etude
Roger Ransom Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/19/05
Posts: 1227
Loc: SouthWest Michigan
Sh-h-h-h-h Be quiet, I'm listening to a song.
_________________________
Laugh More
Yamaha G7 - Roland FP7

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#383971 - 05/07/06 12:26 AM Re: Black Note Etude
Roger Ransom Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/19/05
Posts: 1227
Loc: SouthWest Michigan
I always thought 'piece' sounded funny too. Sculpters and painters call their creations 'pieces'and that sounds wierd to me too. what should we call what we're playing? I don't know uh how about "music"?

Pieces of what?
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Laugh More
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#383972 - 05/07/06 02:04 AM Re: Black Note Etude
valarking Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/17/02
Posts: 2331
Loc: Dallas
 Quote:
Originally posted by Roger Ransom:
Pieces of what? [/b]
Uh... music?

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#383973 - 05/07/06 04:14 AM Re: Black Note Etude
PoStTeNeBrAsLuX Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/31/05
Posts: 2618
Loc: Geneva, Switzerland
Derulux:
 Quote:
[1]What purpose do your "footnotes" serve? [q*uote]Oh, my god, a footnote! *whispers* He must be edumacated... [/q*uote]
Did you consult Mr Google for the phrase "common English usage" and realise your rather basic error? Or have you been too busy making feeble attempts to criticise the formal aspects[1] of a post, rather than its content?

And before you ask, I could define the word feeble if that helps...

- Michael B.
[1] I like the use of footnotes[2].
[2] It prevents a build-up of parenthetical comments in the main text[3], and gives the reader the choice of reading a shorter version, and/or consulting below for more detail.
[3] Something I'd have thought an 'educated' person such as yourself might have noticed and appreciated ;\) .
_________________________
There are two rules to success in life: Rule #1. Don't tell people everything you know.

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#383974 - 05/07/06 03:24 PM Re: Black Note Etude
Derulux Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/06/05
Posts: 5062
Loc: Philadelphia
 Quote:
Originally posted by valarking:
 Quote:
Originally posted by Derulux:

Define "educated". [/b]
No.

Say no to needless semantics. [/b]
So you're saying that the guy who got his GED and now works at Firestone in West Philly will have the same response as a History of Music professor with a Ph.D. from Juilliard? :rolleyes:
_________________________
Every day we are afforded a new chance. The problem with life is not that you run out of chances. In the end, what you run out of are days.

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#383975 - 05/07/06 03:39 PM Re: Black Note Etude
valarking Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/17/02
Posts: 2331
Loc: Dallas
 Quote:
Originally posted by Derulux:
 Quote:
Originally posted by valarking:
 Quote:
Originally posted by Derulux:

Define "educated". [/b]
No.

Say no to needless semantics. [/b]
So you're saying that the guy who got his GED and now works at Firestone in West Philly will have the same response as a History of Music professor with a Ph.D. from Juilliard? :rolleyes: [/b]
Define response please.

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#383976 - 05/07/06 04:01 PM Re: Black Note Etude
RalleStar Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/05/06
Posts: 31
Derulux, if you can honestly say you would tell people that you would like to "sing them a song", and expect them to expect you playing a piano piece, then by all means, call pieces for songs.

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#383977 - 05/07/06 04:08 PM Re: Black Note Etude
Derulux Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/06/05
Posts: 5062
Loc: Philadelphia
if you can honestly say you would tell people that you would like to "sing them a song", and expect them to expect you playing a piano piece, then by all means, call pieces for songs. [/b]
NO. I don't believe "sing" accurately describes a piano, but I do believe that, for shorter pieces, song is certainly a more-than-acceptable substitute.

[1] I like the use of footnotes[2].
[2] It prevents a build-up of parenthetical comments in the main text[3], and gives the reader the choice of reading a shorter version, and/or consulting below for more detail.
[3] Something I'd have thought an 'educated' person such as yourself might have noticed and appreciated .[/b]
Ok, that cracked me up. \:D

Define response please.[/b]
I didn't use the word response in the text you quoted. Reread the post, please. ;\)
_________________________
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