Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

SEARCH
the Forums & Piano World

This custom search works much better than the built in one and allows searching older posts.
(ad 125) Sweetwater - Digital Keyboards & Other Gear
Digital Pianos at Sweetwater
(ad) Pearl River
Pearl River Pianos
(ad) Pianoteq
(ad) P B Guide
Acoustic & Digital Piano Guide
PianoSupplies.com (150)
Piano Accessories Music Related Gifts Piano Tuning Equipment Piano Moving Equipment
We now offer Gift Certificates in our online store!
(ad) Estonia Piano
Estonia Piano
Quick Links to Useful Stuff
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers
*Organs

Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano Accessories
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Piano Books
*Piano Art, Pictures, & Posters
*Directory/Site Map
*Contest
*Links
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Screen Saver
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords
Page 1 of 6 1 2 3 4 5 6 >
Topic Options
#385603 - 08/17/08 09:44 AM Liszt really sight-read Chopins etudes..?
davaofthekeys Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/06/08
Posts: 243
I think many of us have heard this story at one time or another, the most common I´ve ran into is that Liszt not only played the etudes perfectly on sight, but that it was from Chopins handwritten manuscript, which seems even more impossible. And if that wasn´t enough, it is also said that Chopin expressed envy over Liszt superior way of performing them!

I wasn´t scared when I watched the shining at age 6, but I´m scared now. Do you think this story could be true? Or is it some sort of urban legend? If you know more detalis, I´d love to hear them, such as, did Liszt play just or or two etudes or *shudders* a whole set of *gulp* 12? And does anyone know, was it the op.10 or op.25 ones?

Anyway, if this legend is true, he truly must have been the greatest pianist in history. (hmm, isn´t that the general opinion anyway..?)

Top
Ad 800 (Pearl River)
Pearl River World's Best Selling Piano
#385604 - 08/17/08 11:58 AM Re: Liszt really sight-read Chopins etudes..?
Age_of_Anxiety Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/25/07
Posts: 273
Loc: home
I also heard he sightread Grieg's concerto for the composer and played some of the orchestra part as well.

Top
#385605 - 08/17/08 01:38 PM Re: Liszt really sight-read Chopins etudes..?
IpsoPhatso Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/03/05
Posts: 97
It's my understanding that Franz Liszt practiced literally 8-10 hours EVERY DAY. I am an awful sight reader, and it's no doubt because I only practice sight-reading 8-10 hours per month, and piano in general maybe 2-3 hours a day.

The man was truly gifted and had a work ethic for piano that I wish I had. I would indeed be scared if I saw anybody sight-read the Revolutionary Etude... Not so much that it's overly difficult for a good pianist, but because there are just SO MANY NOTES to read/translate/play.

Top
#385606 - 08/17/08 02:29 PM Re: Liszt really sight-read Chopins etudes..?
Coolkid70 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/27/08
Posts: 378
Loc: Irvine, CA
 Quote:
Originally posted by Age_of_Anxiety:
I also heard he sightread Grieg's concerto for the composer and played some of the orchestra part as well. [/b]
I also read that Liszt was commenting on the score during that time, as well.
_________________________
Kawai K-3 (2008)

Top
#385607 - 08/17/08 02:32 PM Re: Liszt really sight-read Chopins etudes..?
BB Player Offline


Registered: 11/17/06
Posts: 2625
Loc: Not in Texas
 Quote:
Originally posted by Age_of_Anxiety:
I also heard he sightread Grieg's concerto for the composer and played some of the orchestra part as well. [/b]
It was Grieg's Sonata for Violin and Piano. Here is Grieg's account from Walker's 3 volume biography of Liszt:

"Now you must bear in mind, in the first place, that he had never seen nor heard the sonata, and in the second place that it was a sonata with a violin part, now above, now below, independent of the piano part. And what does Liszt do? He plays the whole thing, root and branch, violin and piano, nay, more, for he played fuller, more broadly. The violin got its due right in the middle of the piano part. He was literally over the whole piano at once, without missing a note, and how he did play! With grandeur, beauty, genius, unique comprehension. I think I laughed - laughed like an idiot."
_________________________
Greg

Top
#385608 - 08/17/08 02:38 PM Re: Liszt really sight-read Chopins etudes..?
sophial Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/11/05
Posts: 3475
Loc: US
Liszt was undoubtedly one of the greatest (if not THE greatest) sight readers who ever lived, among his other amazing pianistic gifts. Schonberg writes in "The Great Pianists" that
" Liszt could do tricks so awesome that in a well-regulated society he would instantly have been burned at the stake for sorcery" , for example hear a complex piece of music once and then play it back without seeing the music.

The Grieg story is true and Grieg himself wrote about having brought his violin sonata to Liszt (which Liszt had never heard or seen) and Liszt played the piano AND violin part (sight reading-- first view).
Grieg himself writes "And what does Liszt do? He plays the whole thing , root and brach, violin and piano, nay , more for he played fuller, more broadly. The violin part got its due right in the middle of the piano part. He was literally all over the whole piano at once, without missing a note, and how he played! With grandeur, beauty, genius, unique complehension. I think I laughed- laughed like a child."

Probably no other response is possible witnessing something like this-- and this from the composer himself!

Liszt was one of a kind.


Sophia

Top
#385609 - 08/17/08 02:39 PM Re: Liszt really sight-read Chopins etudes..?
sophial Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/11/05
Posts: 3475
Loc: US
sorry, I was writing this at the same time you were, Greg!

Top
#385610 - 08/17/08 02:50 PM Re: Liszt really sight-read Chopins etudes..?
-Frycek Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/06/05
Posts: 5921
Loc: SC Mountains
Chopin was actually writing a letter in the same room while Liszt explored the manuscripts for the etudes, he wrote, "I wish I could steal his way of playing my etudes."
_________________________
Slow down and do it right.

Top
#385611 - 08/17/08 03:05 PM Re: Liszt really sight-read Chopins etudes..?
sophial Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/11/05
Posts: 3475
Loc: US
Here's another anecdote that Schonberg includes from American composer Otis Boise, who brought his own orchestral score to Liszt at Weimar. Again, the composer is the narrator:

" He (Liszt) glanced at the instrumental scheme, turned the successive pages to the end, tracing my themes and procedures, and then with this flash negative in his mind, began the most astoundingly coherent rendering of an orchestral score that I had heard and such as I never since heard from another musician. Those who have attempted such tasks know that the ten fingers being inadequate to the performance of all the details, it is necessary to cull such essentials from the mass of voices as well as clear the line of development. Liszt did this simultaneously. No features of the workmanship, contrapuntal or instrumental , escaped his notice and he made running comments without interrupting his progress."

Boise said " There has never been an occasion in my career when my pianistic calibre seemed to me so small....." in talking about this episode.

Top
#385612 - 08/17/08 03:21 PM Re: Liszt really sight-read Chopins etudes..?
Coolkid70 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/27/08
Posts: 378
Loc: Irvine, CA
BB Player,

It was both.

Wikipedia has this, in an article named Edvard Grieg:

 Quote:
In 1868, Franz Liszt, who had not yet met Grieg, wrote a testimonial for him to the Norwegian Ministry of Education, which led to Grieg obtaining a travel grant. The two men met in Rome in 1870. On Grieg's first visit, they went over Grieg's Violin Sonata No. 1, which pleased Liszt greatly. On his second visit, in April, Grieg brought with him the manuscript of his Piano Concerto, which Liszt proceeded to sightread (including the orchestral arrangement). Liszt's rendition greatly impressed his audience, although Grieg gently pointed out to him that he played the first movement too quickly. Liszt also gave Grieg some advice on orchestration, (for example, to give the melody of the second theme in the first movement to a solo trumpet).
_________________________
Kawai K-3 (2008)

Top
#385613 - 08/17/08 03:22 PM Re: Liszt really sight-read Chopins etudes..?
davaofthekeys Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/06/08
Posts: 243
Wow, this is great stuff! I love to hear new Liszt stories, I find it very inspiring! (and a bit frightening)

Top
#385614 - 08/17/08 03:31 PM Re: Liszt really sight-read Chopins etudes..?
playliszt Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/01/06
Posts: 449
Loc: Oh/Fla
I posted this a while ago in answer to another query like this one so excuse the repetition:

Here's a few more anecdotes (from A. Walker's bio of Liszt,vol.2 the Virtuouso Years):

1. When Liszt was 11 years he played Bach's Fugue in C-min for Beethoven. Beethoven asked the boy if he could play it in a different key, whereupon Liszt said he was able to do so. He recalled the event w/ Beethoven many years later to one of his (Liszt) pupils with tears in his eyes.


2. When Liszt was 14 years old he was asked if he could accompany a flute player during a recital whose flute was out of tune with the piano such that the flute was a semitone sharp. Liszt read and transposed the piece at sight during the recital.

3. & 4. “…Joachim never forgot how Liszt accompanied him in the Finale of Mendelssohn’s Violin concerto, all the time holding a lighted cigar between 1st & middle fingers of the right hand (while reading the music).
Linda Raman relates a similar story. She once told Liszt that L. Boehner played fugues on the organ in spite of 2 lame fingers. Liszt pondered this for a while… then seated himself at the piano and played a difficult fugue by Bach with only 3 fingers of each hand…”

....Incredible sight-reading seems only a part of his uncanny ability.

Top
#385615 - 08/17/08 04:13 PM Re: Liszt really sight-read Chopins etudes..?
BB Player Offline


Registered: 11/17/06
Posts: 2625
Loc: Not in Texas
 Quote:
Originally posted by Coolkid70:
BB Player,

It was both.
[/b]
Thanks for the additional anecdote. He was indeed an amazing sight reader!
_________________________
Greg

Top
#385616 - 08/17/08 07:25 PM Re: Liszt really sight-read Chopins etudes..?
Cheeto717 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 702
Loc: Pennsylvania
My music history teacher mentioned that some speculate Clara Schumann was just as good (or even better) than Liszt.

Then there was the student that not only impressed Chopin, but made Liszt threaten to retire when he started touring...Carl Filtsch. He was also being tutored in composition by Chopin himself, (what an honor!). But alas, poor Carl died at 15.

But I guess once you get to a certain point it doesn't really matter how good you are.
_________________________
Working On:
Bach: Partita No. 6
Beethoven: Op. 26
Brahms: Op. 120
Chopin: Op. 10

Top
#385617 - 08/17/08 08:24 PM Re: Liszt really sight-read Chopins etudes..?
wdot Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/07
Posts: 728
Loc: South Carolina, USA
There are stories about Saint-Saens reading at sight some of Wagner's operatic manuscripts from score. Some of these people had unbelievably prodigious talents.

Top
#385618 - 08/17/08 09:03 PM Re: Liszt really sight-read Chopins etudes..?
sophial Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/11/05
Posts: 3475
Loc: US
Cheeto717
Not sure what sources your history teacher is drawing on but Clara herself wrote that she felt like a student after hearing Liszt play. She championed a different style of playing but clearly was nowhere near as technically virtuosic as Liszt and was much more conservative in her musical values and expression.

Jason, you want to weigh in on this one? ;\)

Filtsch apparently had great promise. Tausig (one of Liszt' students) was also a great talent who died young. Good chance that neither in the long run had (or would have had) the combination of virtuosity, bravura, interpretive genius, compositional talent, musicality and sheer magnetism that Franz Liszt did.

Sophia

Top
#385619 - 08/17/08 10:32 PM Re: Liszt really sight-read Chopins etudes..?
Gofishus Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 07/24/08
Posts: 9
Liszt is truly a genius...its hard to believe that after all, he was human like us.

Top
#385620 - 08/18/08 01:24 AM Re: Liszt really sight-read Chopins etudes..?
argerichfan Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/15/06
Posts: 8904
Loc: Pacific Northwest, US.
 Quote:
Originally posted by sophial:
Jason, you want to weigh in on this one? ;\)
No my dear, I get into too much trouble when it comes to Clara.

But I just recently read that Clara wouldn't allow any of her children to study the piano. Hadn't heard that before...
_________________________
Jason

Top
#385621 - 08/18/08 01:31 AM Re: Liszt really sight-read Chopins etudes..?
argerichfan Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/15/06
Posts: 8904
Loc: Pacific Northwest, US.
 Quote:
Originally posted by sophial:
Good chance that neither in the long run had (or would have had) the combination of virtuosity, bravura, interpretive genius, compositional talent, musicality and sheer magnetism that Franz Liszt did.
But Julius Reubke, well known to organists for his fantasic Sonata on the 94th Psalm, was well on his way. Alas, he passed on at 24. One really wonders what he would have developed into.
_________________________
Jason

Top
#385622 - 08/18/08 01:41 AM Re: Liszt really sight-read Chopins etudes..?
Fleeting Visions Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/21/06
Posts: 1501
Loc: Champaign, IL
His sonata, which imitates Liszt's in form and development, is also not a bad specimen. I believe that it is in Bb minor.
_________________________
Amateur Pianist, Scriabin Enthusiast, and Octave Demon

Top
#385623 - 08/18/08 01:49 AM Re: Liszt really sight-read Chopins etudes..?
RogerW Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/10/08
Posts: 439
Some interesting stories here... One sentence in particular that is interesting in the Grieg quote is "He plays the whole thing, ... , nay, more, for he played fuller, more broadly." Not even Liszt bothered to read and play back the music note by note, he read the rhythms, harmonies and the violin melody and improvised on that.

Top
#385624 - 08/18/08 01:56 AM Re: Liszt really sight-read Chopins etudes..?
argerichfan Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/15/06
Posts: 8904
Loc: Pacific Northwest, US.
 Quote:
Originally posted by Fleeting Visions:
His sonata, which imitates Liszt's in form and development, is also not a bad specimen. I believe that it is in Bb minor.
Yes, you are correct as usual. I wouldn't consider it a masterpiece -it has never caught on with pianists- the superb technical and musical alignment of the organ sonata isn't duplicated as brilliantly.

But as long as there are organists on this planet, Reubke's sonata will continue to be performed on a regular basis. I have many recordings (10 to be exact! ) and have also heard it in concert countless times, most recently at King's College chapel.
_________________________
Jason

Top
#385625 - 08/18/08 04:41 AM Re: Liszt really sight-read Chopins etudes..?
florhof Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/20/06
Posts: 133
Loc: Germany
The abilities of Franz Liszt are well known. But have you ever heard about Georges Bizet doing similar things?
Before Liszt started to play one of his own pieces (a very difficult one) he said to the audience: "There are only two people in the world who can play this piece - Hans von Bülow and I."
Georges Bizet who happened to be there went to the piano and sightread the whole score. Liszt didn't seem to be astonished at all. His brief comment: "I see we are three."

----------

http://www.pianistenschule.de

Top
#385626 - 08/18/08 07:23 AM Re: Liszt really sight-read Chopins etudes..?
davaofthekeys Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/06/08
Posts: 243
Just remembered another one I read a long time ago in some old book I borrowed from my music colleges library, something about a rare concert, probably pretty early in Liszt career, where Liszt, Chopin and a couple of other pianists where performing on the same bill, and that on this occasion, Liszt improvised a prelude to begin the concert. Pretty incredible.

Top
#385627 - 08/18/08 08:32 AM Re: Liszt really sight-read Chopins etudes..?
Palindrome Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/22/01
Posts: 3915
Loc: Chicago, IL USA
 Quote:
Originally posted by florhof:
The abilities of Franz Liszt are well known. But have you ever heard about Georges Bizet doing similar things?
Before Liszt started to play one of his own pieces (a very difficult one) he said to the audience: "There are only two people in the world who can play this piece - Hans von Bülow and I."
Georges Bizet who happened to be there went to the piano and sightread the whole score. Liszt didn't seem to be astonished at all. His brief comment: "I see we are three." [/b]
I've read that Liszt felt Bizet to be the third best pianist he had ever heard. (No, I don't know who numbers 1 and 2 were.)

The story about Saint-Saens sightreading Wagner came from Von Bulow, who said that Camille's orchestral score reading ability surpassed that of everyone he knew.

and...

 Quote:
Originally posted by davaofthekeys:
Wow, this is great stuff! I love to hear new Liszt stories, I find it very inspiring! (and a bit frightening) [/b]
Uhhh... I don't think there are gonna be any new ones.....
_________________________
There is no end of learning. -Robert Schumann Rules for Young Musicians

Top
#385628 - 08/18/08 08:36 AM Re: Liszt really sight-read Chopins etudes..?
timbo77 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/24/07
Posts: 268
Loc: Singapore
Sight-reading is a skill like any other and some people through practice and natural facility are very very good at it. I'm sure Liszt could plough his way through Grieg's concerto and anything else he laid his eyes on. I would expect many concert pianists today can sight read some pretty tricky stuff, not to mention conductors, who sight read orchestral scores complete with transposing multiple instruments.

I've watched one teacher of mine breeze his way through the full orchestral score of Parsifal whereas my father, a classical tenor by training, can sightread pretty much anything. I've sat by as he happily works his way through Rachmaninoff concertos, Scriabin sonatas, Chopin ballades all the while apologising for the little mistakes he makes along the way or cooing about a particular modulation. He assures me he learnt it through sheer practice, as he played through scores of music for singing roles he was preparing or wanted to sing through. Admittedly, it makes me want to give up playing the piano sometimes, but each time I get to see him (alas far too seldom, being over 6,500 miles away) I do my best to find something that stumps him. \:\)

Me? I am a terrible sight reader.

Top
#385629 - 08/18/08 08:36 AM Re: Liszt really sight-read Chopins etudes..?
Fleeting Visions Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/21/06
Posts: 1501
Loc: Champaign, IL
I believe that Liszt said that at least three different pianists were the best he had ever heard on different occasion. This is fitting to his romantic sentiment.

Quick question: Sentimentalism vs. Sentimentality?
_________________________
Amateur Pianist, Scriabin Enthusiast, and Octave Demon

Top
#385630 - 08/18/08 08:43 AM Re: Liszt really sight-read Chopins etudes..?
Numerian Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 1075
Possibly the Hexameron concert? Liszt, Pixis, Thalberg, Herz, Czerny and Chopin contributed variations on a theme from Bellini's I Puritani. The concert was a charity event and Liszt took on the additional responsibility of ordering the pieces, composing connecting links, and a prelude and finale to tie it all together. He also composed an orchestral accompaniment and a four hand piano version later on.

Amidst all this Lisztian accomplishment, Chopin's brief nocturne stands out as very modernistic and the only thing still remembered from the Hexameron.

Top
#385631 - 08/18/08 08:59 AM Re: Liszt really sight-read Chopins etudes..?
-Frycek Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/06/05
Posts: 5921
Loc: SC Mountains
On a poignant note, Liszt really was sight reading. As an old man he gave up that sort of exhibition as he was nearly blind with cataracts. Winston Churchill's mother, Jennie, was seated beside Liszt at a banquet in England. She found him utterly charming. She also had to help him navigate the food on his plate.
_________________________
Slow down and do it right.

Top
#385632 - 08/18/08 11:53 AM Re: Liszt really sight-read Chopins etudes..?
Goose68 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/17/07
Posts: 69
Loc: USA
Keep these stories coming... I'm loving this thread more than I thought.

Any good book recommendations for similar?

Top
#385633 - 08/18/08 12:21 PM Re: Liszt really sight-read Chopins etudes..?
Cheeto717 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 702
Loc: Pennsylvania
 Quote:
Originally posted by davaofthekeys:
Liszt improvised a prelude to begin the concert. Pretty incredible. [/b]
Not that incredible I would think. For a long time concert pianists would begin their concert with an improvised prelude.
_________________________
Working On:
Bach: Partita No. 6
Beethoven: Op. 26
Brahms: Op. 120
Chopin: Op. 10

Top
#385634 - 08/18/08 12:38 PM Re: Liszt really sight-read Chopins etudes..?
argerichfan Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/15/06
Posts: 8904
Loc: Pacific Northwest, US.
 Quote:
Originally posted by Numerian:
Amidst all this Lisztian accomplishment, Chopin's brief nocturne stands out as very modernistic and the only thing still remembered from the Hexameron.
Not sure I follow you. Chopin's variation may be the finest musically, but Hexameron is very much the sum of its parts and that is how it is remembered today. IMHO the piano & orchestra version gilds the lily, and I think Lewenthal made the best compromise in his splendidly atmospheric and "sense of occasion" recording.

Interestingly, without Hexameron what is the chance anyone but a specialist would recognise the name Pixis?
_________________________
Jason

Top
#385635 - 08/18/08 12:49 PM Re: Liszt really sight-read Chopins etudes..?
BruceD Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 18134
Loc: Victoria, BC
 Quote:
Originally posted by argerichfan:
[...]Interestingly, without Hexameron what is the chance anyone but a specialist would recognise the name Pixis? [/b]
Pixis? I don't recognize the name! \:D

Regards,
_________________________
BruceD
- - - - -
Estonia 190

Top
#385636 - 08/18/08 01:34 PM Re: Liszt really sight-read Chopins etudes..?
pianovirus Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/24/07
Posts: 953
Loc: Basel, Switzerland
 Quote:
Originally posted by BruceD:
 Quote:
Originally posted by argerichfan:
[...]Interestingly, without Hexameron what is the chance anyone but a specialist would recognise the name Pixis? [/b]
Pixis? I don't recognize the name! \:D

Regards, [/b]
Sinful statements!! ;\)
Surely we are all aware of Pixis' take on Meyerbeer's opera, which was also the starting point for Liszt's most successful warhorse: Robert le
_________________________
youtube.com/user/pianovirus

Top
#385637 - 08/18/08 01:44 PM Re: Liszt really sight-read Chopins etudes..?
sotto voce Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/15/06
Posts: 6163
Loc: Briarcliff Manor, NY, USA
I only know of Robert le Diable because of the Grand Duo Concertante for piano and cello by Chopin and Franchomme. I guess it's not exactly a warhorse. ;\)

The name "Pixis" reminds me of another sin of which I'm culpable: I've never heard of François-Joseph Fétis other than in connection with the Méthode des Méthodes.

Steven
_________________________

"There are two means of refuge from the miseries of life: music and cats."
—Albert Schweitzer

Chopin: Allegro de Concert Op. 46
Schumann: Toccata Op. 7
Fauré: Ballade Op. 19

Top
#385638 - 08/18/08 09:59 PM Re: Liszt really sight-read Chopins etudes..?
sophial Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/11/05
Posts: 3475
Loc: US
 Quote:
Originally posted by Goose68:
Keep these stories coming... I'm loving this thread more than I thought.

Any good book recommendations for similar? [/b]
The very best source about Liszt: Alan Walker's three volume biography.

Top
#385639 - 08/19/08 05:00 AM Re: Liszt really sight-read Chopins etudes..?
wr Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 7895
 Quote:
Originally posted by davaofthekeys:
Just remembered another one I read a long time ago in some old book I borrowed from my music colleges library, something about a rare concert, probably pretty early in Liszt career, where Liszt, Chopin and a couple of other pianists where performing on the same bill, and that on this occasion, Liszt improvised a prelude to begin the concert. Pretty incredible. [/b]
Almost everybody improvised regularly back then. I have just finished reading a bio of Hummel, and he actually preferred improvising in public to playing written music. There was a fairly amazing story in the book about how at the end of a music party/concert, Hummel was getting ready to leave, but people prevailed on him to do a little improvising first. As it happened, people were waltzing in the next room, and so he started to improvise around the dance, and then he amazed everyone by managing to weave in thematic material from all the music that had been heard earlier in the evening, and then topped it all off with a fugue, keeping the waltz going throughout the whole thing!! He also frequently did duo improvisations in concerts with Moscheles.

Ah, the good old days...

Top
#385640 - 08/19/08 06:32 AM Re: Liszt really sight-read Chopins etudes..?
davaofthekeys Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/06/08
Posts: 243
Hmm, I guess there was more improv going on back then, nowadays it seems pretty rare on the classical scene (which I think is pretty good actually, I don´t care much for improv).

But I still think that being singled out to improvise a prelude and a finale to a concert featuring pianists such as Pixis, Thalberg, Herz, Czerny and Chopin is pretty incredible and not really an ordinary feat, even for a pianist back in those days.
Just imagine the pressure and expectations one would have had to deal with at such a star-studded event, not only performing and improvising in front of an audience, but also that many other accomplished pianists.

Top
#385641 - 08/19/08 09:11 AM Re: Liszt really sight-read Chopins etudes..?
-Frycek Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/06/05
Posts: 5921
Loc: SC Mountains
The young Clara Wieck (Schumann) initially drew a lot of criticism as the result of her innovation of playing pieces from memory. At the time the only time a pianist played without music was when he was improvising. The lack of music was intended to underscore the improvisatory nature of his performance. Clara memorized easily and quickly but not particularly accurately and often sounded more like she was presenting her own impression of a work rather than the work itself. Because of the liberties she was inclined to take, her early audiences sometimes thought she was trying to pass off others' compositions as her own improvisions.
_________________________
Slow down and do it right.

Top
#385642 - 08/19/08 10:04 AM Re: Liszt really sight-read Chopins etudes..?
dianekeeton Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/18/08
Posts: 28
Loc: Seattle, WA
To my knowledge Liszt Sight-read not Chopins Etudes but his LADIES!

Top
#385643 - 08/19/08 11:34 AM Re: Liszt really sight-read Chopins etudes..?
sotto voce Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/15/06
Posts: 6163
Loc: Briarcliff Manor, NY, USA
 Quote:
Originally posted by -Frycek:
Clara memorized easily and quickly but not particularly accurately and often sounded more like she was presenting her own impression of a work rather than the work itself. Because of the liberties she was inclined to take, her early audiences sometimes thought she was trying to pass off others' compositions as her own improvisions. [/b]
Based on this description, I'm surprised that her choice to play from memory was precedent-setting. And yet she is credited with changing the accepted standards of performance practice from that point onward.

Or is that an anecdote, too? \:D

Or is that another Music 101 topic of which I'm ignorant? \:\(

Steven
_________________________

"There are two means of refuge from the miseries of life: music and cats."
—Albert Schweitzer

Chopin: Allegro de Concert Op. 46
Schumann: Toccata Op. 7
Fauré: Ballade Op. 19

Top
#385644 - 08/19/08 01:45 PM Re: Liszt really sight-read Chopins etudes..?
-Frycek Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/06/05
Posts: 5921
Loc: SC Mountains
 Quote:
Originally posted by sotto voce:
 Quote:
Originally posted by -Frycek:
Clara memorized easily and quickly but not particularly accurately and often sounded more like she was presenting her own impression of a work rather than the work itself. Because of the liberties she was inclined to take, her early audiences sometimes thought she was trying to pass off others' compositions as her own improvisions. [/b]
Based on this description, I'm surprised that her choice to play from memory was precedent-setting. And yet she is credited with changing the accepted standards of performance practice from that point onward.

Or is that an anecdote, too? \:D

Or is that another Music 101 topic of which I'm ignorant? \:\(

Steven [/b]
I imagine she got better at it as she got older. She was just a kid then. There was a particular piece by Beethoven that several people commented on. It seemed a bit odd to them.
_________________________
Slow down and do it right.

Top
#385645 - 08/19/08 10:54 PM Re: Liszt really sight-read Chopins etudes..?
sophial Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/11/05
Posts: 3475
Loc: US
sorry, deleted post

Top
#385646 - 08/19/08 11:01 PM Re: Liszt really sight-read Chopins etudes..?
sotto voce Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/15/06
Posts: 6163
Loc: Briarcliff Manor, NY, USA
 Quote:
Originally posted by sophial:
sorry, deleted post [/b]
Well, I had been meaning to say that I didn't know which composer was the antecedent of "his."

Did Liszt sight-read Chopin's ladies, or his own ladies?

Well, I had also been meaning to say that I don't even know that that means!

And sophial, you were right in any case. ;\)

Steven
_________________________

"There are two means of refuge from the miseries of life: music and cats."
—Albert Schweitzer

Chopin: Allegro de Concert Op. 46
Schumann: Toccata Op. 7
Fauré: Ballade Op. 19

Top
#385647 - 08/19/08 11:39 PM Re: Liszt really sight-read Chopins etudes..?
sophial Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/11/05
Posts: 3475
Loc: US
ah, Steven, you caught it! ;\) . Thanks.

Top
#1927696 - 07/16/12 07:30 PM Re: Liszt really sight-read Chopins etudes..? [Re: davaofthekeys]
SirHuddlestonFudd Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/08/12
Posts: 96
Loc: Cambridge, MA
Two stories presented here are told about many people.

1) I read it was Czerny who was asked by Beethoven, when he presented himself as a candidate for instruction, 10 years old, to play one of the P&F from the WTC. He then asked the boy to transpose the thing to a different key, which he did. This prompted Beethoven to announce that he would take him as a pupil.

2) When Brahms was touring with the violinist (I forget the name), he was supposed to play the Waldstein sonata, which is in C major. The piano in the hall was found to be a semitone flat, so Brahms shrugged and played the thing in C# major instead, from memory.

Finally, I think it was Vierne who used to improvise extremely difficult stuff for the crowds at Notre Dame every Sunday.

The upshot of all this is that transposition, even of very difficult works, was not only commonplace, but expected of professional musicians, just as improvisation was also expected. In our fetishizing of the score in the modern age, we've let those skills atrophy as we search instead for the perfect performance. I'd much rather hear one of our great pianists improvise on something than hear yet another rendition of, say, the Appassionata.

Top
#1927717 - 07/16/12 08:21 PM Re: Liszt really sight-read Chopins etudes..? [Re: davaofthekeys]
apple* Offline


Registered: 01/01/03
Posts: 19862
Loc: Kansas
pianists can do great things.

ta da!

For the life of me, i couldn't transpose a thing without great forthought, notes, and writing out the chords... but suddenly was able to transpose a choral piece, not simple one, into A flat.. it just fell together, the fingers found the notes. I am a lot more comfortable transposing now. i can't do it automatically, but i can do it.
_________________________
accompanist/organist.. a non-MTNA teacher to a few

love and peace, Õun (apple in Estonian)

Top
#1927742 - 07/16/12 09:22 PM Re: Liszt really sight-read Chopins etudes..? [Re: SirHuddlestonFudd]
MathGuy Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/06/09
Posts: 232
Loc: California
Originally Posted By: SirHuddlestonFudd
2) When Brahms was touring with the violinist (I forget the name), he was supposed to play the Waldstein sonata, which is in C major. The piano in the hall was found to be a semitone flat, so Brahms shrugged and played the thing in C# major instead, from memory.
I bet those octave glissandi were murder in C#! wink

Top
#1927767 - 07/16/12 10:13 PM Re: Liszt really sight-read Chopins etudes..? [Re: davaofthekeys]
BruceD Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 18134
Loc: Victoria, BC
Another thread rises from a four-year old grave!
_________________________
BruceD
- - - - -
Estonia 190

Top
#1927806 - 07/17/12 12:08 AM Re: Liszt really sight-read Chopins etudes..? [Re: BruceD]
SirHuddlestonFudd Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/08/12
Posts: 96
Loc: Cambridge, MA
Originally Posted By: BruceD
Another thread rises from a four-year old grave!


Who cares?

Top
#1927811 - 07/17/12 12:21 AM Re: Liszt really sight-read Chopins etudes..? [Re: davaofthekeys]
Kuanpiano Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/06/10
Posts: 2151
Loc: Canada
Well, it's hard to continue a discussion when the OP and many other posters don't use this website anymore, at least one of the people in this conversation has been banned (and in several other accounts as well)....
_________________________
Working on:
Chopin - Andante Spianato and Grande Polonaise Brillante
Rachmaninoff - Preludes op. 23 nos. 3,4,6, op. 32 no.12
Franck - Violin Sonata

Top
#1927815 - 07/17/12 12:30 AM Re: Liszt really sight-read Chopins etudes..? [Re: apple*]
rocket88 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/04/06
Posts: 3165
Originally Posted By: apple*
pianists can do great things.

ta da!

For the life of me, i couldn't transpose a thing without great forthought, notes, and writing out the chords... but suddenly was able to transpose a choral piece, not simple one, into A flat.. it just fell together, the fingers found the notes. I am a lot more comfortable transposing now. i can't do it automatically, but i can do it.


Sometimes its like riding a bike...if you think about it, it doesn't work, but just do it, and it works fine.
_________________________
Music teacher and piano player.

Top
#1927872 - 07/17/12 04:08 AM Re: Liszt really sight-read Chopins etudes..? [Re: BruceD]
Bobpickle Offline

Gold Supporter until July 10  2014


Registered: 05/24/12
Posts: 1383
Loc: Cameron Park, California
Originally Posted By: BruceD
Another thread rises from a four-year old grave!


and here I didn't even notice shocked

at any rate, it was a fun read

Top
#1928297 - 07/17/12 11:18 PM Re: Liszt really sight-read Chopins etudes..? [Re: timbo77]
Chopinlover49 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/17/11
Posts: 640
I have the famous DG cd of Emil Gilels playing the two Brahms piano concerti. The liner notes said Gilels knew #1 well, but apparently he sight-read the second in the recording session, one take. It is considered world-class I think. Apparently there are many professional pianists who can do things like this.

Top
#1928300 - 07/17/12 11:31 PM Re: Liszt really sight-read Chopins etudes..? [Re: Chopinlover49]
beet31425 Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/09
Posts: 3814
Loc: Bay Area, CA
Originally Posted By: Chopinlover49
I have the famous DG cd of Emil Gilels playing the two Brahms piano concerti. The liner notes said Gilels knew #1 well, but apparently he sight-read the second in the recording session, one take. It is considered world-class I think. Apparently there are many professional pianists who can do things like this.

Sorry-- I don't believe it for a second. smile

My disbelief inspired me to do some research. Do you mean this DG recording? It's apparently a remastering of a 1972 recording. But Gilels had already recorded the piece in 1958 with Reiner.

Maybe he knew #1 well, and it had just been a while since he'd played #2, so he didn't have it in his fingertips as well. He did not sightread it for the recording session-- no way.

-J
_________________________
Schubert: Bb Impromptu D.935/3; Mozart: D minor concerto; Chopin: first Ballade

Top
#1928379 - 07/18/12 04:11 AM Re: Liszt really sight-read Chopins etudes..? [Re: beet31425]
stores Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/09
Posts: 6648
Loc: Here, as opposed to there
Originally Posted By: beet31425
Originally Posted By: Chopinlover49
I have the famous DG cd of Emil Gilels playing the two Brahms piano concerti. The liner notes said Gilels knew #1 well, but apparently he sight-read the second in the recording session, one take. It is considered world-class I think. Apparently there are many professional pianists who can do things like this.

Sorry-- I don't believe it for a second. smile

My disbelief inspired me to do some research. Do you mean this DG recording? It's apparently a remastering of a 1972 recording. But Gilels had already recorded the piece in 1958 with Reiner.

Maybe he knew #1 well, and it had just been a while since he'd played #2, so he didn't have it in his fingertips as well. He did not sightread it for the recording session-- no way.

-J


I've not ever heard that story, but I would have a very difficult time buying it as well.
_________________________

"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

♪ ≠ $


Top
#1928394 - 07/18/12 05:12 AM Re: Liszt really sight-read Chopins etudes..? [Re: davaofthekeys]
drumour Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/08/05
Posts: 860
Loc: Scotland
Some people mean "reading" when they say/write "sight-reading".


John
_________________________
Vasa inania multum strepunt.

Top
#1928401 - 07/18/12 06:26 AM Re: Liszt really sight-read Chopins etudes..? [Re: davaofthekeys]
babama Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/15/08
Posts: 801
Loc: Netherlands
I'm very slow at reading music and with everything I do on the piano I rely very much on my memory, so when I read stories like this it seems like pure wizardry to me.
Even if you can read music that fast, how do your hands "know" all the moves? How can you make quick, precise jumps etc. if you haven't gone through these moves before? I just don't get it... not that I don't believe any of it, but it's just mind boggling to me.


Edited by babama (07/18/12 06:28 AM)

Top
#1928810 - 07/18/12 11:35 PM Re: Liszt really sight-read Chopins etudes..? [Re: davaofthekeys]
Chopinlover49 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/17/11
Posts: 640
I have often heard that Liszt was the most technically-accomplished pianist of all time. What I have always wondered is, how can we know? Since recordings weren't around, we only have personal accounts from his contemporaries. In times to come, pianists from say about 1950 on can be compared at least on a fairly simple level by their recordings, but Mozart? Tausig? Beethoven? Chopin? I think the stories about the famous pianists and composers of the past are fascinating, but I guess we will never know. What kind of performer was Bach? Above I read that Bizet was quite accomplished. I didn't know that although I know he was a musical genius. There are so many famous pianists who either didn't record, or recorded when the process was in its infancy.

Top
#1928833 - 07/19/12 01:03 AM Re: Liszt really sight-read Chopins etudes..? [Re: Chopinlover49]
Brendan Offline



Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 5319
Loc: McAllen, TX
Originally Posted By: Chopinlover49
I have the famous DG cd of Emil Gilels playing the two Brahms piano concerti. The liner notes said Gilels knew #1 well, but apparently he sight-read the second in the recording session, one take.


No.
_________________________
http://www.BrendanKinsella.com

Top
#1928843 - 07/19/12 01:43 AM Re: Liszt really sight-read Chopins etudes..? [Re: SirHuddlestonFudd]
argerichfan Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/15/06
Posts: 8904
Loc: Pacific Northwest, US.
Originally Posted By: SirHuddlestonFudd
When Brahms was touring with the violinist (I forget the name), he was supposed to play the Waldstein sonata, which is in C major. The piano in the hall was found to be a semitone flat, so Brahms shrugged and played the thing in C# major instead, from memory.

Hmmmm... but anecdotes such as that are hard to pin down. Brahms toured with Joachim, and the story I read was that they were to play the Kruetzer Sonata, but the piano was a semitone flat so Brahms transposed it up. Yet Gerald Moore (no stranger to accompanying or transposing on the run) in his fascinating book 'Am I Too Loud?' skeptically inquired: 'but did he play all the notes?'

OTH, I've also read that Beethoven played his C major concerto up a semitone to accommodate a wrongly tuned piano. Either or both could have done it, who knows? crazy
_________________________
Jason

Top
#1928881 - 07/19/12 04:52 AM Re: Liszt really sight-read Chopins etudes..? [Re: argerichfan]
davaofthekeys Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/06/08
Posts: 243
Wow, funny to see this thread resurrected. I'm the OP and I'm still here, just lurking about.

I have read many books about Liszt since my original question, and the best one if you want a looong chapter on his playing techniques and sight-reading feats from accurate sources, is "The Great Pianists" by Harold C. Schonberg. It's full of stories about all the famous pianists (even reports on J.S. Bach, though he didnt play an actual piano for more than like 10 minutes). Highly recomended, just get it, any fan of piano will have no regrets!

Top
#1928883 - 07/19/12 04:55 AM Re: Liszt really sight-read Chopins etudes..? [Re: babama]
drumour Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/08/05
Posts: 860
Loc: Scotland
Originally Posted By: babama
...

Even if you can read music that fast, how do your hands "know" all the moves? How can you make quick, precise jumps etc. if you haven't gone through these moves before? I just don't get it... not that I don't believe any of it, but it's just mind boggling to me.



Because you have done most of these moves before - tons of times. I was lucky enough to be coached, when in a youth orchestra, by William Pleeth (the go to cellist for quintets for the Amadeus Quartet). When any of us had problems leaping to high notes he would say it's exactly where it was the last time - simple.

Practising sight-reading isn't the same as doing sight-reading for a collaborator or an audience. There is no reason at all why a slower tempo couldn't be taken. I would recommend sight-reading for accuracy in one's practising and taking a speed where that's possible.

John
_________________________
Vasa inania multum strepunt.

Top
#1928889 - 07/19/12 05:21 AM Re: Liszt really sight-read Chopins etudes..? [Re: drumour]
davaofthekeys Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/06/08
Posts: 243
I get the feeling that Liszt, having composed many of history's most difficult piano pieces, was pretty familiar with almost anything that could appear in a score. Certainly he would not easily be taken by surprise. Afterall, you recognize patterns easier after extended exposure.

The more disturbing part are the numerous reliable witness accounts from composers who said that Liszt could sight read whole orchestra scores at the piano, simultaneously transcribing it perfectly for piano plus adding some improvements.

Actually, it has been said that Liszt what at his perfomance-best during his first sightreading of pieces, because if he was made to play it a second time, he would get bored by the lack of challenge and start adding his own techniques and ideas into the piece to make it more flashy.

It's a real shame that there are no recordings of Liszt, but since he was challenged by pianists all over Europe during his lifetime and seem to have risen above them all, it's probably safe to say that he was indeed the best ever. At least what I like to think smile

Top
#1928890 - 07/19/12 05:30 AM Re: Liszt really sight-read Chopins etudes..? [Re: davaofthekeys]
wr Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 7895
Originally Posted By: davaofthekeys


The more disturbing part are the numerous reliable witness accounts from composers who said that Liszt could sight read whole orchestra scores at the piano, simultaneously transcribing it perfectly for piano plus adding some improvements.



I've heard of other pianists and conductors who could read from orchestral scores and produce an instant transcription, too. It's not a unique ability that Liszt alone had.

Top
#1928894 - 07/19/12 05:39 AM Re: Liszt really sight-read Chopins etudes..? [Re: wr]
davaofthekeys Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/06/08
Posts: 243
Originally Posted By: wr
Originally Posted By: davaofthekeys


The more disturbing part are the numerous reliable witness accounts from composers who said that Liszt could sight read whole orchestra scores at the piano, simultaneously transcribing it perfectly for piano plus adding some improvements.



I've heard of other pianists and conductors who could read from orchestral scores and produce an instant transcription, too. It's not a unique ability that Liszt alone had.



But Liszt was doing it before it became cool.

Top
#1928898 - 07/19/12 06:06 AM Re: Liszt really sight-read Chopins etudes..? [Re: davaofthekeys]
wr Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 7895
Originally Posted By: davaofthekeys
Originally Posted By: wr
Originally Posted By: davaofthekeys


The more disturbing part are the numerous reliable witness accounts from composers who said that Liszt could sight read whole orchestra scores at the piano, simultaneously transcribing it perfectly for piano plus adding some improvements.



I've heard of other pianists and conductors who could read from orchestral scores and produce an instant transcription, too. It's not a unique ability that Liszt alone had.



But Liszt was doing it before it became cool.


Yeah, probably - he did have this knack of being ahead of the pack in a lot of ways.

Top
#2016711 - 01/18/13 12:45 PM Re: Liszt really sight-read Chopins etudes..? [Re: davaofthekeys]
jdott Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/17/13
Posts: 34
Loc: Colorado, USA
From what I've read, he didn't envy his interpretations, because Liszt included some of his own fireworks ( which would render them no longer Chopin). Liszt' sight reading skills were legendary, however. Edward Grieg (I played for his nephew Storm once) said that Liszt sight read his concerto. My piano teacher sight read the Liszt E-flat for me when I was pestering her to learn it. She didn't like it, and after I learned it, I didn't either (I think it's just a long étude with accompaniment.). Yes, I believe he sight read all of them.

Top
#2016736 - 01/18/13 01:34 PM Re: Liszt really sight-read Chopins etudes..? [Re: jdott]
AldenH Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/22/11
Posts: 412
Loc: Texas
Originally Posted By: jdott
From what I've read, he didn't envy his interpretations, because Liszt included some of his own fireworks ( which would render them no longer Chopin). Liszt' sight reading skills were legendary, however. Edward Grieg (I played for his nephew Storm once) said that Liszt sight read his concerto. My piano teacher sight read the Liszt E-flat for me when I was pestering her to learn it. She didn't like it, and after I learned it, I didn't either (I think it's just a long étude with accompaniment.). Yes, I believe he sight read all of them.


A very famous (in a letter in his hand, and thus authentic) quote of Chopin is (speaking of Liszt) "I am writing without knowing what my pen is scribbling, because at this moment Liszt is playing my études and putting honest thoughts out of my head. I should like to rob him of the way he plays my études." That sounds fairly laudatory as well. There is an apocryphal anecdote of Liszt adding notes to the Db Nocturne at a salon and is confronted by Chopin and asks him not to add any notes, but this is unverifiable (unlike the letter).

They certainly had ups and downs in their musical friendship, but I don't believe that Liszt added notes to the études.

By the way, jdott, you really shouldn't post on old threads. It is impolite to the people who are currently engaged with active threads and oftentimes old threads have posts by users no longer involved with these forums. I mean no rudeness, you have something to contribute, but please post on living threads instead of resurrecting the dead!

Top
#2016758 - 01/18/13 02:21 PM Re: Liszt really sight-read Chopins etudes..? [Re: AldenH]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19800
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: AldenH
....By the way, jdott, you really shouldn't post on old threads. It is impolite to the people who are currently engaged with active threads and oftentimes old threads have posts by users no longer involved with these forums. I mean no rudeness, you have something to contribute, but please post on living threads instead of resurrecting the dead!

Funny -- I was going to do a post saying "Nice job finding these old threads!" and then I saw your post. ha

I know that your view is shared by some. I don't agree with it at all, and for what it's worth I don't think most others do. In fact, to me it's one of the more interesting things on the site -- seeing which old things are of such interest to new members, and seeing a bit of the site's archeology. smile

Top
#2016797 - 01/18/13 04:12 PM Re: Liszt really sight-read Chopins etudes..? [Re: Mark_C]
RealPlayer Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/02/03
Posts: 2340
Loc: NYC
It would be cool if thread titles and entries that were over, say, six months old appeared differently, maybe shaded differently. So you'd know instantly when you look at the forum list that someone is responding to an old thread.
_________________________
Joe

www.josephkubera.com

Top
#2016802 - 01/18/13 04:21 PM Re: Liszt really sight-read Chopins etudes..? [Re: RealPlayer]
beet31425 Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/09
Posts: 3814
Loc: Bay Area, CA
Originally Posted By: RealPlayer
It would be cool if thread titles and entries that were over, say, six months old appeared differently, maybe shaded differently. So you'd know instantly when you look at the forum list that someone is responding to an old thread.

Brilliant idea. It would satisfy the archeologically-minded Mark_C's, as well as the rest of us (the majority I think, sorry Mark) who resent the confusion between living and historical conversations.

-J
_________________________
Schubert: Bb Impromptu D.935/3; Mozart: D minor concerto; Chopin: first Ballade

Top
#2016804 - 01/18/13 04:26 PM Re: Liszt really sight-read Chopins etudes..? [Re: AldenH]
pianoloverus Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19465
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: AldenH
By the way, jdott, you really shouldn't post on old threads. It is impolite to the people who are currently engaged with active threads and oftentimes old threads have posts by users no longer involved with these forums. I mean no rudeness, you have something to contribute, but please post on living threads instead of resurrecting the dead!
Don't agree, think it's impolite to those engaged in active threads, and don't think it matters if the old posts were started by users no longer active. There are very few threads that are only of interest or relevance to the person who originally started the thread.

Posting on an old thread is no different, I think, from opening up an old magazine or book one has saved. If the thread has interesting material and is worthwhile, then it remains interesting and worthwhile forever. In fact, many threads are really just repeats of earlier threads, so what's the difference?

The only exceptions for me are when someone decides to open a huge number of old threads simultaneously, opens up an old thread with a meaningless post, or opens up an old flame war thread.


Edited by pianoloverus (01/18/13 04:29 PM)

Top
#2016809 - 01/18/13 04:43 PM Re: Liszt really sight-read Chopins etudes..? [Re: davaofthekeys]
AldenH Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/22/11
Posts: 412
Loc: Texas
RealPlayer's idea would satisfy all parties, and would give even more variety to the forum page!

On the subject of repeated topics in threads - doesn't Frank get tax refunds based on how many threads the forum gains annually? ha

Top
#2016826 - 01/18/13 05:30 PM Re: Liszt really sight-read Chopins etudes..? [Re: beet31425]
argerichfan Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/15/06
Posts: 8904
Loc: Pacific Northwest, US.
Originally Posted By: beet31425
...who resent the confusion between living and historical conversations.

At what point does a thread become 'historical'? The Franz Liszt Appreciation Thread was dormant from 3 December to 9 January, and long off the first page of topics. But I wouldn't think it qualified for historical status, thus inviting someone to start a new topic.

I admit to mixed feelings about this. Ancient threads can be fun to read for the archival value, but I don't think they should be bumped up with new posts. OTH, threads less than a year old are fair game, particularly if a good portion of the contributors are still active here. Just my 2 pence.

_________________________
Jason

Top
#2016844 - 01/18/13 06:19 PM Re: Liszt really sight-read Chopins etudes..? [Re: Mark_C]
Tararex Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/27/11
Posts: 408
Loc: Middle Georgia, USA
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Originally Posted By: AldenH
....By the way, jdott, you really shouldn't post on old threads. It is impolite to the people who are currently engaged with active threads and oftentimes old threads have posts by users no longer involved with these forums. I mean no rudeness, you have something to contribute, but please post on living threads instead of resurrecting the dead!

Funny -- I was going to do a post saying "Nice job finding these old threads!" and then I saw your post. ha

I know that your view is shared by some. I don't agree with it at all, and for what it's worth I don't think most others do. In fact, to me it's one of the more interesting things on the site -- seeing which old things are of such interest to new members, and seeing a bit of the site's archeology. smile


I'm with you Mark. This was one of the more entertaining threads I've read here in a while. The assumption that newer members are unable to understand the concept of "date stamps" on old threads is a bit odd to say the least. Or that because older members may no longer be around to respond no one can pick up the ball for further play.
_________________________

Top
#2016857 - 01/18/13 06:54 PM Re: Liszt really sight-read Chopins etudes..? [Re: AldenH]
Old Man Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/04/12
Posts: 778
Loc: Michigan, USA
Originally Posted By: AldenH
By the way, jdott, you really shouldn't post on old threads. It is impolite to the people who are currently engaged with active threads and oftentimes old threads have posts by users no longer involved with these forums. I mean no rudeness, you have something to contribute, but please post on living threads instead of resurrecting the dead!

Thanks for raising this subject, AldenH, because it's always been a puzzler to me. Some, such as yourself, believe that old threads should not be resurrected, and yet I've seen new OPs chewed out for raising subjects that have already been hashed and rehashed a "million times before".

Which is it, folks? I think most newcomers strive to follow the etiquette of the particular forum they are joining, but in this situation, one can be damned either way. Personally, I agree wholeheartedly with Mark and pianoloverus. Why should it matter that the original participants are no longer active? If a topic is worthy of reconsideration, why not raise an old thread, and let it compete with the current ones? I think an old thread can provide an interesting history of other opinions on the topic, and that will enrich the current discussion far more than opening a new thread.

Actually I started a thread soliciting opinions on the "best" box sets of Beethoven sonatas last year. I knew this would most likely be a worn-out topic, but I wasn't about to waste time tracking down old threads. Surprisingly, no one complained, and people were very willing to state (or restate) their opinions. OTOH, I've also found many interesting old topics (yes, a few somewhat contentious) that I would love to revive, but didn't feel like taking the incoming fire.

If I were the etiquette czar, I'd declare all threads welcome, old or new. And I believe the proper etiquette should be to simply comment on the topic at hand, and not criticize the age of the thread, one way or the other.

Top
#2016880 - 01/18/13 07:38 PM Re: Liszt really sight-read Chopins etudes..? [Re: AldenH]
Damon Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/22/06
Posts: 6168
Loc: St. Louis area
Originally Posted By: AldenH

By the way, jdott, you really shouldn't post on old threads. It is impolite to the people who are currently engaged


No it isn't.
_________________________
It's been scientifically proven that Horowitz sucks.

Top
#2016885 - 01/18/13 07:44 PM Re: Liszt really sight-read Chopins etudes..? [Re: Coolkid70]
Damon Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/22/06
Posts: 6168
Loc: St. Louis area
Originally Posted By: Coolkid70
Quote:
Originally posted by Age_of_Anxiety:
I also heard he sightread Grieg's concerto for the composer and played some of the orchestra part as well.
I also read that Liszt was commenting on the score during that time, as well.


I also read somewhere that he was simultaneously balancing a plate on stick with his chin. That Liszt sure was something!
_________________________
It's been scientifically proven that Horowitz sucks.

Top
#2016891 - 01/18/13 07:53 PM Re: Liszt really sight-read Chopins etudes..? [Re: AldenH]
jdott Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/17/13
Posts: 34
Loc: Colorado, USA
My apologies if I breached some etiquette of this site. Yes, Chopin did write that he envied Liszt's skills, but he was ill and weakened from TB probably the last ten years of his life. I've read several accounts of his formidable concertizing skills in his youth.

Top
#2016898 - 01/18/13 08:10 PM Re: Liszt really sight-read Chopins etudes..? [Re: jdott]
Old Man Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/04/12
Posts: 778
Loc: Michigan, USA
Originally Posted By: jdott
My apologies if I breached some etiquette of this site. Yes, Chopin did write that he envied Liszt's skills, but he was ill and weakened from TB probably the last ten years of his life. I've read several accounts of his formidable concertizing skills in his youth.

Please, jdott - no apologies. smile You didn't breach a thing. You're simply bringing your questions and insights to a topic that interests you, and that's what PW is (or should be) all about.

Top
#2016907 - 01/18/13 08:22 PM Re: Liszt really sight-read Chopins etudes..? [Re: Old Man]
jdott Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/17/13
Posts: 34
Loc: Colorado, USA
Thank you. I'm 65-does that still make you the 'Old Man?'

Top
#2016909 - 01/18/13 08:24 PM Re: Liszt really sight-read Chopins etudes..? [Re: Old Man]
wr Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 7895
Originally Posted By: Old Man
You didn't breach a thing.


For some of us, he did. I have an intense dislike of zombie threads, and I know there are many others who feel the same.

The very concept of a forum is dependent on the interaction of current users. That fact seems to be lost on a number of the current users.

If it were my forum, I'd be looking for some automated method of locking dormant threads. If someone was desperate to add on to some ancient stuff, they could simply start a new thread and give a link to the old one they wanted to reference in the first post. Or, if it was just some single posting that they wanted to respond to, they could just copy and paste whatever was relevant.

Top
#2016955 - 01/18/13 10:30 PM Re: Liszt really sight-read Chopins etudes..? [Re: jdott]
Old Man Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/04/12
Posts: 778
Loc: Michigan, USA
Originally Posted By: jdott
Thank you. I'm 65-does that still make you the 'Old Man?'

Well, um, I'll be 63 in a few weeks. Care to swap monikers? grin

Top
#2016958 - 01/18/13 10:38 PM Re: Liszt really sight-read Chopins etudes..? [Re: Old Man]
BruceD Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 18134
Loc: Victoria, BC
Originally Posted By: Old Man
Originally Posted By: jdott
Thank you. I'm 65-does that still make you the 'Old Man?'

Well, um, I'll be 63 in a few weeks. Care to swap monikers? grin


Hah! Young whippersnappers!
_________________________
BruceD
- - - - -
Estonia 190

Top
#2016972 - 01/18/13 11:06 PM Re: Liszt really sight-read Chopins etudes..? [Re: wr]
Old Man Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/04/12
Posts: 778
Loc: Michigan, USA
Originally Posted By: wr
Originally Posted By: Old Man
You didn't breach a thing.

For some of us, he did. I have an intense dislike of zombie threads, and I know there are many others who feel the same.

The very concept of a forum is dependent on the interaction of current users. That fact seems to be lost on a number of the current users.

If it were my forum, I'd be looking for some automated method of locking dormant threads. If someone was desperate to add on to some ancient stuff, they could simply start a new thread and give a link to the old one they wanted to reference in the first post. Or, if it was just some single posting that they wanted to respond to, they could just copy and paste whatever was relevant.

How exactly has the "interaction of current users" been impeded? Just today we've had the following people post to this thread:

jdott
AldenH
Mark C
RealPlayer
beet31425
pianoloverus
argerichfan
Tararex
Damon
Old Man
wr

All of the above are current users (1/18/2013 seems fairly current to me, anyway). The title of the thread is clearly visible. The only difference I see between this "zombie" thread and a "current" thread is that this thread contains comments that have an earlier time stamp.

So what is the source of your "intense dislike"? Other than these time stamps, and the names of people who may or may not still be posting, I'm not sure how how this thread differs from a current thread. The differences seem so superficial, I can't believe it's such an issue for you and the "many others who feel the same." I'm certainly no genius, but even I can handle time stamps.

Top
#2016975 - 01/18/13 11:15 PM Re: Liszt really sight-read Chopins etudes..? [Re: Old Man]
jdott Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/17/13
Posts: 34
Loc: Colorado, USA
There does seem to still be interest in this, and thanks for the support, Gramps. Any idea what is considered a 'zombie thread?"

Thanks

Top
#2016978 - 01/18/13 11:33 PM Re: Liszt really sight-read Chopins etudes..? [Re: jdott]
argerichfan Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/15/06
Posts: 8904
Loc: Pacific Northwest, US.
Originally Posted By: jdott
Any idea what is considered a 'zombie thread?'

Good question. No concrete definition of course, but I should think any thread that is at least 8 years old would qualify, especially as the majority of times subsequent threads may have covered the same territory.

But I don't really have a problem with threads that may be as old as 2 years, particularly if there is something pertinent to add, as in the case here.

As I indicated earlier, the Franz Liszt Appreciation Thread might lie fallow for several months, but that does not mean we shouldn't revive it when there is something new and exciting to add.

And not to mention some threads which had a very short shelf life at the time. Why not revive them if there are new members or older ones with fresh input?
_________________________
Jason

Top
#2016980 - 01/18/13 11:42 PM Re: Liszt really sight-read Chopins etudes..? [Re: beet31425]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19800
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: beet31425
....the rest of us (the majority I think, sorry Mark) who resent the confusion between living and historical conversations.

Confusion? I didn't think there's much confusion except maybe to the very new people. As the line goes in Annie Get Your Gun....



....all you have to do is look! smile

Just take a look at the date on the 1st post. Or the last ones before the new one.

A big clue, which almost always gives it away to me even before I click: A thread that doesn't look at all familiar but which has multiple posts and many hundreds or thousands of views.

And as for the n00bs, nothing we do will keep THEM from being confused. ha

I know, because when I first came here, there were thousands of things that confused me. For starters, how about the thing that has the name "Adult Beginners Forum".....

Top
#2016987 - 01/18/13 11:48 PM Re: Liszt really sight-read Chopins etudes..? [Re: pianoloverus]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19800
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
....Posting on an old thread is no different, I think, from opening up an old magazine or book one has saved....

Interesting analogy, and maybe it's no accident that I love that too. Almost always when I find an old magazine or newspaper that I've 'saved' by accident (by having put it some place where it then just failed to get thrown away.....excuse me, I mean recycled) ha ....I virtually always find everything in it fascinating, on a lot of levels. Even/maybe especially the ads. And the older the better.

It's also always a fascinating experience to thumb through the old magazines in antique shops. I find myself half-wanting to buy them ALL. What keeps me from it is that I realize there'd be no end to it.

Top
#2016989 - 01/18/13 11:54 PM Re: Liszt really sight-read Chopins etudes..? [Re: Tararex]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19800
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: Tararex
I'm with you Mark.

And I'm with you! grin

Quote:
....The assumption that newer members are unable to understand the concept of "date stamps" on old threads is a bit odd to say the least....

....but I'm not surprised at all that they often can't. What surprises me is that many older members don't seem easily to be able to tell. Likewise, that many older members don't seem easily able to tell which post a post is replying to (since except when posts are default-ly labeled as replying to the OP, it is shown at the top of the post.)

Top
#2016990 - 01/18/13 11:56 PM Re: Liszt really sight-read Chopins etudes..? [Re: Old Man]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19800
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: Old Man
....it's always been a puzzler to me. Some, such as yourself, believe that old threads should not be resurrected, and yet I've seen new OPs chewed out for raising subjects that have already been hashed and rehashed a "million times before".

Which is it, folks?....

Great job. Love it. smile

Which indeed?


I think all it means is:

-- You can't make everybody happy. And....
-- One's opinions (probably anyone's opinions) aren't necessarily consistent.

Top
#2016993 - 01/18/13 11:58 PM Re: Liszt really sight-read Chopins etudes..? [Re: jdott]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19800
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: jdott
My apologies if I breached some etiquette of this site....

No worries, I don't think. I doubt anyone really thinks you did. smile

Top
#2016995 - 01/19/13 12:01 AM Re: Liszt really sight-read Chopins etudes..? [Re: Old Man]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19800
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: Old Man
How exactly has the "interaction of current users" been impeded? Just today we've had the following people post to this thread:

jdott
AldenH
Mark C
RealPlayer
beet31425
pianoloverus
argerichfan
Tararex
Damon
Old Man
wr

All of the above are current users....

It's more that that -- it's the PW Hall of Fame! ha

Top
#2016996 - 01/19/13 12:03 AM Re: Liszt really sight-read Chopins etudes..? [Re: argerichfan]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19800
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: argerichfan
Originally Posted By: jdott
Any idea what is considered a 'zombie thread?'

Good question. No concrete definition of course, but I should think any thread that is at least 8 years old would qualify...

But not 7 years and 364 days? grin


My opinion of what's a zombie thread: NONE.

Top
#2016997 - 01/19/13 12:05 AM Re: Liszt really sight-read Chopins etudes..? [Re: davaofthekeys]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19800
Loc: New York
BTW, what's much more offensive and contrary to etiquette is when somebody does like 8 posts in a row. ha

(Sorry folks, didn't even realize -- was just hanging' out.) smile

Top
#2016998 - 01/19/13 12:06 AM Re: Liszt really sight-read Chopins etudes..? [Re: Mark_C]
argerichfan Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/15/06
Posts: 8904
Loc: Pacific Northwest, US.
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
As the line goes in Annie Get Your Gun....

I read once -cannot recall when or where- that 'Annie Get Your Gun' has produced more standards than any other Broadway musical.

A lot of other info about Annie in the book 'Eiffel's Tower' by Jill Jonnes. She was quite prominently featured in the Paris 1889 World's Fair.
_________________________
Jason

Top
#2016999 - 01/19/13 12:09 AM Re: Liszt really sight-read Chopins etudes..? [Re: argerichfan]
Arghhh Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/31/08
Posts: 1149
Originally Posted By: argerichfan

And not to mention some threads which had a very short shelf life at the time. Why not revive them if there are new members or older ones with fresh input?

Hear hear!

The new posts in Pianist Corner have been a little slow lately (or maybe it's just my perception), so I was happy to re-read this thread with some input from someone who was unable to post before.

I think it's nice to point out to new people if they try to answer a specific question that was asked years ago. I guess that may be a candidate for a "zombie thread". But otherwise, what's the harm? I don't think people would decide not to respond to a thread with a recent creation date because they already responded to an old thread.

Top
#2017000 - 01/19/13 12:11 AM Re: Liszt really sight-read Chopins etudes..? [Re: argerichfan]
jdott Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/17/13
Posts: 34
Loc: Colorado, USA
Sorry argerichfan (I also think she's terrific), but I'm still confused. The original post was Aug of 2008, then it jumped to July 2012. Why would some people be upset over 5 months when the earlier gap spanned almost four years? As an aside, I thought this was a pretty lively discussion. Thanks

Top
#2017001 - 01/19/13 12:12 AM Re: Liszt really sight-read Chopins etudes..? [Re: davaofthekeys]
trigalg693 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/17/08
Posts: 662
lol, fully derailed thread. nice.

Sort of on topic, someone said there aren't any modern day Liszts, and it's also been mentioned that pianists now have different focus and all. I disagree. Let's just look at Marc-Andre Hamelin. He learns bookshelves full of music, and records giant stacks of CDs. How long do you think it takes him to learn these pieces? My guess is he can play most of them perfectly or near perfectly on the first try.

And really, it's not just him. A lot of young rising stars these days have a crazy amount of repertoire. I've seen a list of the repertoire that some kid at Curtis learned in 1 year, and it averages to something like 30 minutes per week of new repertoire (all difficult stuff obviously), which they have to polish and perform in a very short timespan. The only way to learn that quickly is if you only need to play through a few times to have it completely down.

Top
#2017009 - 01/19/13 12:31 AM Re: Liszt really sight-read Chopins etudes..? [Re: Mark_C]
Tararex Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/27/11
Posts: 408
Loc: Middle Georgia, USA
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Originally Posted By: Tararex
I'm with you Mark.

And I'm with you! grin

Quote:
....The assumption that newer members are unable to understand the concept of "date stamps" on old threads is a bit odd to say the least....

....but I'm not surprised at all that they often can't. What surprises me is that many older members don't seem easily to be able to tell. Likewise, that many older members don't seem easily able to tell which post a post is replying to (since except when posts are default-ly labeled as replying to the OP, it is shown at the top of the post.)


***many older members don't seem easily able to tell***
Combination of presbyopia and don't care a bit? laugh

In my case if I've got 20 windows open on VPN's into 5 different states I consider it a success if I post a proper reply to the correct forum.
_________________________

Top
#2017012 - 01/19/13 12:41 AM Re: Liszt really sight-read Chopins etudes..? [Re: jdott]
argerichfan Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/15/06
Posts: 8904
Loc: Pacific Northwest, US.
Originally Posted By: jdott
Sorry argerichfan (I also think she's terrific), but I'm still confused. The original post was Aug of 2008, then it jumped to July 2012. Why would some people be upset over 5 months when the earlier gap spanned almost four years? As an aside, I thought this was a pretty lively discussion.

Well just goes to show that I have not thought this out properly. Sorry for that.

crazy

Upon thinking about it more, well I guess it should not bother me, and it is always fun to interact with new people here. Mark does have a point, and ultimately if an old thread is resurrected, well what harm in that? I stand corrected.
_________________________
Jason

Top
#2017013 - 01/19/13 12:42 AM Re: Liszt really sight-read Chopins etudes..? [Re: Tararex]
argerichfan Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/15/06
Posts: 8904
Loc: Pacific Northwest, US.
Originally Posted By: Tararex

***many older members don't seem easily able to tell***
Combination of presbyopia and don't care a bit? laugh

Be nice. wink
_________________________
Jason

Top
#2017016 - 01/19/13 12:46 AM Re: Liszt really sight-read Chopins etudes..? [Re: argerichfan]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19800
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: argerichfan
Originally Posted By: jdott
Sorry argerichfan (I also think she's terrific), but I'm still confused. The original post was Aug of 2008, then it jumped to July 2012. Why would some people be upset over 5 months when the earlier gap spanned almost four years? As an aside, I thought this was a pretty lively discussion.

Well just goes to show that I have not thought this out properly. Sorry for that....

I don't think you hadn't thought it out properly. I think he misunderstood it a bit. The people who are upset about the 5 month gap are upset over 4 year gaps too.

Top
#2017022 - 01/19/13 01:01 AM Re: Liszt really sight-read Chopins etudes..? [Re: davaofthekeys]
jdott Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/17/13
Posts: 34
Loc: Colorado, USA
Trigalg693 (a mathematician?) we're in total agreement there. Performance wise, I think there are lots of Liszts today; I think we're sorely lacking in great composers, unfortunately.

Top
#2017023 - 01/19/13 01:09 AM Re: Liszt really sight-read Chopins etudes..? [Re: jdott]
trigalg693 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/17/08
Posts: 662
Originally Posted By: jdott
Trigalg693 (a mathematician?) we're in total agreement there. Performance wise, I think there are lots of Liszts today; I think we're sorely lacking in great composers, unfortunately.


Super immature handle/name picked well over 10 years ago, but yes, still a (-n aspiring) mathematician, surprisingly!

Yea, composition seems to be a dying art, but maybe we just have the wrong perspective. There's Kennan, Ligeti, Vine, Rzewski, etc. and maybe in another century they'll be considered greats.


Edited by trigalg693 (01/19/13 01:09 AM)

Top
#2017025 - 01/19/13 01:11 AM Re: Liszt really sight-read Chopins etudes..? [Re: trigalg693]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19800
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: trigalg693
Originally Posted By: jdott
Trigalg693 (a mathematician?) we're in total agreement there. Performance wise, I think there are lots of Liszts today; I think we're sorely lacking in great composers, unfortunately.
....yes, still a (-n aspiring) mathematician....

You're kidding!
I had always read it as "tri-galg" -- not that I knew what a galg would be. ha

(And I even liked trig and alg....)

Top
#2017033 - 01/19/13 01:20 AM Re: Liszt really sight-read Chopins etudes..? [Re: Mark_C]
Arghhh Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/31/08
Posts: 1149
tri-gal = a girl who likes to do triathlons, of course. That's how I read the name until recently...

Top
#2017034 - 01/19/13 01:20 AM Re: Liszt really sight-read Chopins etudes..? [Re: davaofthekeys]
jdott Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/17/13
Posts: 34
Loc: Colorado, USA
My problem with a lot of the contemporary composers is I don't like the way it sounds. Beethoven, Schubert, Chopin, Liszt, Rachmaninoff: all we're Elvises IMHO. Rock stars one and all.

Top
#2017036 - 01/19/13 01:21 AM Re: Liszt really sight-read Chopins etudes..? [Re: Mark_C]
Old Man Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/04/12
Posts: 778
Loc: Michigan, USA
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
BTW, what's much more offensive and contrary to etiquette is when somebody does like 8 posts in a row. ha

(Sorry folks, didn't even realize -- was just hanging' out.) smile

Actually, Mark, you're now up to 10 - in under 90 minutes. Was there a chugging contest at Starbucks tonight? A switch to brandy might be in order. laugh

Top
#2017037 - 01/19/13 01:23 AM Re: Liszt really sight-read Chopins etudes..? [Re: Old Man]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19800
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: Old Man
Actually, Mark, you're now up to 10 - in under 90 minutes. Was there a chugging contest at Starbucks tonight? A switch to brandy might be in order. laugh

No, but we did have a really good dinner at a place we stumbled into. grin

Oh....and a non-decaffeinated cappuccino. ha

Top
#2017043 - 01/19/13 02:01 AM Re: Liszt really sight-read Chopins etudes..? [Re: Arghhh]
trigalg693 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/17/08
Posts: 662
Originally Posted By: Arghhh
tri-gal = a girl who likes to do triathlons, of course. That's how I read the name until recently...


I'm guessing you're a female triathlete.

Top
#2017062 - 01/19/13 03:11 AM Re: Liszt really sight-read Chopins etudes..? [Re: davaofthekeys]
floydthebarber71 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/07/12
Posts: 178
Loc: South Africa
This is nice. I haven't read this thread before and was a good read, I'm glad it was "resurrected". To those who seem to be losing sleep over this fact, why not just shut up and not read the thread if you know it's old?
_________________________
Zaahir

Self-taught renegade - Kawai CL-36

Top
#2017092 - 01/19/13 06:02 AM Re: Liszt really sight-read Chopins etudes..? [Re: floydthebarber71]
wr Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 7895
Originally Posted By: floydthebarber71
This is nice. I haven't read this thread before and was a good read, I'm glad it was "resurrected". To those who seem to be losing sleep over this fact, why not just shut up and not read the thread if you know it's old?


What makes you think anyone is losing sleep over it? And why, once a zombie thread is resurrected, should anyone "just shut up", any more than you have?

Anyway, please explain me how one is supposed to know a thread is old when looking down the subject list of threads. I would love to know.



Edited by wr (01/19/13 06:22 AM)

Top
#2017094 - 01/19/13 06:20 AM Re: Liszt really sight-read Chopins etudes..? [Re: Old Man]
wr Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 7895
Originally Posted By: Old Man
Originally Posted By: wr
Originally Posted By: Old Man
You didn't breach a thing.

For some of us, he did. I have an intense dislike of zombie threads, and I know there are many others who feel the same.

The very concept of a forum is dependent on the interaction of current users. That fact seems to be lost on a number of the current users.

If it were my forum, I'd be looking for some automated method of locking dormant threads. If someone was desperate to add on to some ancient stuff, they could simply start a new thread and give a link to the old one they wanted to reference in the first post. Or, if it was just some single posting that they wanted to respond to, they could just copy and paste whatever was relevant.

How exactly has the "interaction of current users" been impeded? Just today we've had the following people post to this thread:

jdott
AldenH
Mark C
RealPlayer
beet31425
pianoloverus
argerichfan
Tararex
Damon
Old Man
wr

All of the above are current users (1/18/2013 seems fairly current to me, anyway). The title of the thread is clearly visible. The only difference I see between this "zombie" thread and a "current" thread is that this thread contains comments that have an earlier time stamp.

So what is the source of your "intense dislike"? Other than these time stamps, and the names of people who may or may not still be posting, I'm not sure how how this thread differs from a current thread. The differences seem so superficial, I can't believe it's such an issue for you and the "many others who feel the same." I'm certainly no genius, but even I can handle time stamps.


The issue is apparently one of those "if you don't already understand it, there is no way to explain" things. At any rate, it has absolutely nothing to do with those who might have posted since the thread was resurrected.

Top
#2017099 - 01/19/13 06:39 AM Re: Liszt really sight-read Chopins etudes..? [Re: Arghhh]
wr Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 7895
Originally Posted By: Arghhh
Originally Posted By: argerichfan

And not to mention some threads which had a very short shelf life at the time. Why not revive them if there are new members or older ones with fresh input?

Hear hear!

The new posts in Pianist Corner have been a little slow lately (or maybe it's just my perception), so I was happy to re-read this thread with some input from someone who was unable to post before.

I think it's nice to point out to new people if they try to answer a specific question that was asked years ago. I guess that may be a candidate for a "zombie thread". But otherwise, what's the harm? I don't think people would decide not to respond to a thread with a recent creation date because they already responded to an old thread.


For me, the problem isn't about responding to old threads, it's about how it is done.

Here's just one part of why I don't like the way this one was done - I look down the list of subjects when I come to the forum, see a thread I hadn't noticed before, open it, and am immediately plunged into a conversation in which I cannot partake, because most of the people are no longer here. That's annoying.

Then, realizing that it's a zombie thread, I have to go through it, scanning the dates, trying to find the one that was the one that resurrected the thread.

All of that could be avoided if the person resurrecting the thread simply started a new thread, with the same subject if they want, saying they had something to add, and put a link to the old one in their post.

Top
#2017100 - 01/19/13 06:40 AM Re: Liszt really sight-read Chopins etudes..? [Re: davaofthekeys]
floydthebarber71 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/07/12
Posts: 178
Loc: South Africa
Yeah, I guess I should be more tolerant to your OCD, since this is a public forum after all. I apologise and forgive you.
_________________________
Zaahir

Self-taught renegade - Kawai CL-36

Top
#2017174 - 01/19/13 10:36 AM Re: Liszt really sight-read Chopins etudes..? [Re: wr]
Old Man Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/04/12
Posts: 778
Loc: Michigan, USA
Originally Posted By: wr
The issue is apparently one of those "if you don't already understand it, there is no way to explain" things.

I understand. smile

Top
#2017256 - 01/19/13 01:16 PM Re: Liszt really sight-read Chopins etudes..? [Re: wr]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19800
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: wr
....please explain me how one is supposed to know a thread is old when looking down the subject list of threads. I would love to know.

I gave a clue but you probably didn't see it because you think you know who isn't worth reading. grin

Quote:
Here's just one part of why I don't like the way this one was done - I look down the list of subjects when I come to the forum, see a thread I hadn't noticed before....

That's what it was about, my dear friend. ha

Quote:
I would love to know.

Apparently not. grin

Top
#2017262 - 01/19/13 01:34 PM Re: Liszt really sight-read Chopins etudes..? [Re: davaofthekeys]
casinitaly Offline

Gold Supporter until March 1 2014


Registered: 03/01/10
Posts: 5124
Loc: Italy
You know, the real topic of this thread actually is interesting - and if someone had not added to it I would probably never have noticed it.

Too bad there are so many posts debating the rights and wrongs of reviving an old post -- (as if there really are any, I mean...seriously folks?) --- that we have to now wade through to see if there is anything else interesting.

I think some folks really get too wound up about stuff that really isn't worth it - and to call someone out as being impolite, or to tell someone to shut up (different posters)... well, that's just not very friend is it?
_________________________
XVIII-XXXIV
Everything's too hard until you make it easy. Follow your teacher's instructions and practice wisely/much, and you'll soon wonder how you ever found it hard ;)-BobPickle
Performance anxiety: make it part of your daily routine and deal with it...Cope! zrtf90

Top
#2017305 - 01/19/13 02:28 PM Re: Liszt really sight-read Chopins etudes..? [Re: wr]
Damon Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/22/06
Posts: 6168
Loc: St. Louis area
Originally Posted By: wr

Then, realizing that it's a zombie thread, I have to go through it, scanning the dates, trying to find the one that was the one that resurrected the thread.

All of that could be avoided if the person resurrecting the thread simply started a new thread, with the same subject if they want, saying they had something to add, and put a link to the old one in their post.


This conversation has been repeated enough that it is clear neither side convinces the other (as usual smile ), but allow me to offer you an alternate to anger. On the screen where the thread titles are listed there are display options at the bottom. You can sort topics by the thread start time. That will throw this particular thread on to a page you won't normally see. Of course this will also move threads that are somewhat active that have an early start post. To alleviate that to some degree, you can experiment with the show topics setting to encompass a range of active posts by number of days. YMMV, but I hope it helps.
_________________________
It's been scientifically proven that Horowitz sucks.

Top
#2017317 - 01/19/13 02:37 PM Re: Liszt really sight-read Chopins etudes..? [Re: Damon]
Damon Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/22/06
Posts: 6168
Loc: St. Louis area
Here's an example of the display option. The Valentin Lisitsa post is the oldest zombie thread active in the last two days. It doesn't confirm it's zombie-ness, but it's a great heads-up.


_________________________
It's been scientifically proven that Horowitz sucks.

Top
#2017326 - 01/19/13 02:44 PM Re: Liszt really sight-read Chopins etudes..? [Re: Damon]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19800
Loc: New York
I gave a clue too (an easier one but not as definitive).

We'll see what's the chance they blunt his view.

My guess: Close to 0%.

Top
#2017332 - 01/19/13 02:55 PM Re: Liszt really sight-read Chopins etudes..? [Re: Mark_C]
Damon Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/22/06
Posts: 6168
Loc: St. Louis area
I'm more optimistic. I know he's not averse to using technology to block Avatars and signatures. I'll go 70%
_________________________
It's been scientifically proven that Horowitz sucks.

Top
#2017336 - 01/19/13 03:02 PM Re: Liszt really sight-read Chopins etudes..? [Re: Damon]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19800
Loc: New York
....and I think it's closer to 0 because I think the objection is more of a "gut" thing than anything specific like what he's saying and what we're addressing. A lot of things are like that. Like, we say we like Horowitz better than Rubinstein (or whatever) because of this-and-that, but the reasons might go deeper than what we say and often deeper than what we think. smile

Top
#2017339 - 01/19/13 03:06 PM Re: Liszt really sight-read Chopins etudes..? [Re: casinitaly]
Damon Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/22/06
Posts: 6168
Loc: St. Louis area
Originally Posted By: casinitaly
You know, the real topic of this thread actually is interesting - and if someone had not added to it I would probably never have noticed it.

Too bad there are so many posts debating the rights and wrongs of reviving an old post .....


Yes it is interesting to some of us but not, apparently, to most. One of the reasons I decided not to pursue classical music professionally is that, as a teen, I was convinced that most famous performers had that ability and I didn't.

I don't really know what more can be said about it other than the anecdotes already mentioned. Take a poll on who believes it?
_________________________
It's been scientifically proven that Horowitz sucks.

Top
#2017340 - 01/19/13 03:09 PM Re: Liszt really sight-read Chopins etudes..? [Re: Damon]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19800
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: Damon
Yes it is interesting to some of us but not, apparently, to most.....

I think it is. Even if people don't post, the thread brings to their attention (or reminds them) that Liszt probably could, and I'd guess lots of people find that interesting.

(BTW I believe it -- not that he could do it with all the notes accurate, but that he could basically do it.)

Top
#2017343 - 01/19/13 03:12 PM Re: Liszt really sight-read Chopins etudes..? [Re: davaofthekeys]
JoelW Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4828
Loc: USA
Why does it matter if someone revives an old thread?

Top
#2017348 - 01/19/13 03:19 PM Re: Liszt really sight-read Chopins etudes..? [Re: JoelW]
Damon Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/22/06
Posts: 6168
Loc: St. Louis area
Originally Posted By: Joel_W
Why does it matter if someone revives an old thread?


wr explained his objection above. Personally, I don't find it annoying at all. Annoying are the people who use "quick reply".
_________________________
It's been scientifically proven that Horowitz sucks.

Top
#2017355 - 01/19/13 03:28 PM Re: Liszt really sight-read Chopins etudes..? [Re: Mark_C]
Damon Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/22/06
Posts: 6168
Loc: St. Louis area
Originally Posted By: Mark_C

(BTW I believe it -- not that he could do it with all the notes accurate, but that he could basically do it.)


I would go along with that, mostly. If Chopin were sincere about his wishes, and we know that Chopin wasn't a slouch, I think Liszt could do more than "basically" play it. Of course we would have to know the exact circumstance in which Chopin said it to ascertain whether there was some amount of hyperbole in the statement. (the statement being, and I quote loosely "I wish I could steal the way Liszt plays my etudes")
_________________________
It's been scientifically proven that Horowitz sucks.

Top
#2017371 - 01/19/13 03:50 PM Re: Liszt really sight-read Chopins etudes..? [Re: JoelW]
BruceD Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 18134
Loc: Victoria, BC
Originally Posted By: Joel_W
Why does it matter if someone revives an old thread?


In the grand scheme of life, it doesn't matter a great deal. It may matter, as sometimes happens, when a new post responds directly to the originator of the thread with something such as "Why don't you try ..." or "I would suggest that you look at ..." when the originator hasn't posted anything in a couple of years. Yes, that has happened more than once.

I have Pianist Corner set up so that posts are listed with the most recent at the top of page 1. Since I read this forum daily, usually more than once a day, if I see a thread on page 1 in the middle of the day that wasn't on page 1 in the morning and if it already has five pages amounting to 113 posts or more, then I know it is an old one. Then I go to the last (most recent) page and see what has currently been posted to revive the thread and decide if the "revival" was intentional, unintentional and whether or not I want to continue reading it.

I remember once, before I started more conscientiously checking dates of posts, reading a thread that had just come up on page 1. I found it interesting, continued to read through it thinking of how I would respond, and came across something in the middle of the thread that was very much exactly what I was thinking, only to find out I was reading one of my own posts which, it turned out, was three or four years old - as was the entire thread except for the very last post.

I wonder if some others have their PW chronology set up differently, or if it's possible to set it up differently. Otherwise, I don't quite understand, when a thread is revived after a couple - or several - years, that the poster didn't realize s/he was reviving very old material. Would one not be aware that one was wading through a lot of back pages of old material to find such threads?

I guess it is possible that a Google search might direct someone to an old thread; I hadn't thought of that until now. That might explain how some very old posts occasionally get revived.


Regards,
_________________________
BruceD
- - - - -
Estonia 190

Top
#2017394 - 01/19/13 04:33 PM Re: Liszt really sight-read Chopins etudes..? [Re: BruceD]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19800
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: BruceD
....if I see a thread on page 1 in the middle of the day that wasn't on page 1 in the morning and if it already has five pages amounting to 113 posts or more, then I know it is an old one.

WR please take note.
That tells you how you can possibly know. smile

Quote:
....Then I go to the last (most recent) page and see what has currently been posted to revive the thread and decide if the "revival" was intentional, unintentional and whether or not I want to continue reading it.

....and that's the advanced course in this methodology. grin

Quote:

I remember once, before I started more conscientiously checking dates of posts, reading a thread that had just come up on page 1. I found it interesting, continued to read through it thinking of how I would respond, and came across something in the middle of the thread that was very much exactly what I was thinking, only to find out I was reading one of my own posts which, it turned out, was three or four years old....

Even more interesting would be if you sometimes disagree with it! ha

Originally Posted By: BruceD
I guess it is possible that a Google search might direct someone to an old thread....

Very often. I know, because many times when I've googled something about music, one of the top matches is an old PW thead.

I'd guess that's often how the resurrections occur.

AND....this might be news to some people, but when you're a new member and especially if you're new to discussion sites altogether (which some new people might be), not only might you not realize that a thread is old, you might not realize that the members make any distinction of any sort between new and old threads. That happened to me on my first discussion site. I saw something of interest and it never occurred to me that there was such a distinction, because I didn't know that there was necessarily any chronological ordering of how threads show up for someone. All I knew was that I saw something I was looking for and which I was interested in. I sort of figured that was how anyone would do stuff on the site -- "sort of" because I had no reason and no way to have thought about it.

Top
#2017427 - 01/19/13 05:41 PM Re: Liszt really sight-read Chopins etudes..? [Re: BruceD]
carey Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/13/05
Posts: 6373
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona
Originally Posted By: BruceD
I remember once, before I started more conscientiously checking dates of posts, reading a thread that had just come up on page 1. I found it interesting, continued to read through it thinking of how I would respond, and came across something in the middle of the thread that was very much exactly what I was thinking, only to find out I was reading one of my own posts which, it turned out, was three or four years old - as was the entire thread except for the very last post.


Been there/done that myself. grin

At least you're consistent !!!
_________________________
YouTube channel - http://www.youtube.com/user/pianophilo

Top
#2017445 - 01/19/13 06:06 PM Re: Liszt really sight-read Chopins etudes..? [Re: argerichfan]
Tararex Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/27/11
Posts: 408
Loc: Middle Georgia, USA
Originally Posted By: argerichfan
Originally Posted By: Tararex

***many older members don't seem easily able to tell***
Combination of presbyopia and don't care a bit? laugh

Be nice. wink


I was only describing my own condition. laugh

Returning to topic, I have no difficulty in believing Liszt's abilities.

For example this:
"A pile of Brahms' unpublished compositions laid on the table as Liszt walked into the room, including the manuscript of the Scherzo in E-flat minor, op.4, which Brahms said was practically illegible. Liszt, after engaging in some good-humoured banter turned to Brahms and said: "We are interested in your compositions whenever you are ready and feel inclined to play them." At that, Brahms became very nervous, and neither Liszt nor Reményi could persuade him to go to the keyboard. Seeing that further persuasion was useless, Liszt went over to the table, picked up the nearly illegible scherzo, placed it on the music desk, and said: "Well, I shall have to play."

Liszt's remarkable powers of sight-reading had been witnessed many times, but this time he was inviting disaster by attempting to read such an untidy manuscript.

Not only did he perform the scherzo in a masterly fashion, however, but also kept up a running commentary on the music—much to Brahms' amazement and delight."

-William Mason (Liszt's pupil) Weimar, 1853

There were other of his contemporaries who conjectured that Liszt was perhaps some sort of returned demigod or re-incarnated Mozart. There had to be significant reason behind these parallels.

Yes, he could and did sight-read the etudes.
_________________________

Top
#2017528 - 01/19/13 08:52 PM Re: Liszt really sight-read Chopins etudes..? [Re: Tararex]
argerichfan Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/15/06
Posts: 8904
Loc: Pacific Northwest, US.
Originally Posted By: Tararex

Not only did he perform the scherzo in a masterly fashion, however, but also kept up a running commentary on the music—much to Brahms' amazement and delight."

-William Mason (Liszt's pupil) Weimar, 1853

But William Mason does not relate that Brahms reportedly fell asleep when listening to Liszt play his B minor Sonata?

I have never believed that.

Yet Harold Schonberg recounts an incident which is uncomfortably close to Mason, concerning the observation of Otis B. Boise when Liszt sight-read his symphony:

No features of the workmanship, contrapuntal or instrumental, escaped his notice, and he made running comments without interrupting his progress.

Perhaps Liszt did that for any composer who approached him. It is quite unlikely that he would have had any difficulty with MacDowell's A minor Concerto. A gloriously delicious confection to be sure, but one look at its conventional form -and cute attempts at thematic transformation- well it might be a wonder if Liszt didn't play it for memory after a casual perusal.
_________________________
Jason

Top
#2017539 - 01/19/13 09:33 PM Re: Liszt really sight-read Chopins etudes..? [Re: Damon]
wr Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 7895
Originally Posted By: Damon
Originally Posted By: wr

Then, realizing that it's a zombie thread, I have to go through it, scanning the dates, trying to find the one that was the one that resurrected the thread.

All of that could be avoided if the person resurrecting the thread simply started a new thread, with the same subject if they want, saying they had something to add, and put a link to the old one in their post.


This conversation has been repeated enough that it is clear neither side convinces the other (as usual smile ), but allow me to offer you an alternate to anger. On the screen where the thread titles are listed there are display options at the bottom. You can sort topics by the thread start time. That will throw this particular thread on to a page you won't normally see. Of course this will also move threads that are somewhat active that have an early start post. To alleviate that to some degree, you can experiment with the show topics setting to encompass a range of active posts by number of days. YMMV, but I hope it helps.


I looked at those options, but they don't help. The only thing I can think of that would actually work is if the forum locked old threads. That way, if people wanted to refer to them, they would need to include a link to them within a current thread. Or if they wanted to comment on some particular post, they could copy and paste it into a current thread.

It's not as if people don't already do that kind of thing. For example, I've seen plenty of links to old threads within current topics. I have sometimes have provided them myself. And, unlike the full zombification of a thread from the archives, it doesn't seem bother anyone when it happens. That contrast in the response should tell you something.

Top
#2017541 - 01/19/13 09:38 PM Re: Liszt really sight-read Chopins etudes..? [Re: Damon]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19800
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: Damon
I'm more optimistic. I know he's not averse to using technology to block Avatars and signatures. I'll go 70%

See? grin

Top
#2017546 - 01/19/13 09:52 PM Re: Liszt really sight-read Chopins etudes..? [Re: Damon]
wr Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 7895
Originally Posted By: Damon
Originally Posted By: Joel_W
Why does it matter if someone revives an old thread?


wr explained his objection above.


Actually, that was only one part of my objection. There's a good deal more, having to do with issues of context, continuity, etc., but there's no use in trying to explain that stuff, I've found. Those who are sensitive to such things already know, and those who aren't, aren't.

Top
#2017594 - 01/19/13 11:33 PM Re: Liszt really sight-read Chopins etudes..? [Re: argerichfan]
Tararex Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/27/11
Posts: 408
Loc: Middle Georgia, USA
@argerichfan

Liszt always considered himself a "good son" obliged to behave as a decent human being. He was also a fierce musical and social competitor and not above overt reminders as to who was Alpha lion. Considering he had the ability, the ego and was always aware of the importance of publicity I'd say it would be out of character not to leverage all whenever possible.

Reading hundreds of Liszt's personal letters (he wrote tens of thousands in his lifetime) is what solidified my opinion of the veracity of these many accounts. His drive, willingness and ability to achieve were truly superhuman.

He learned early in his career that concert hall flash was derisively called out as bombast while the same bold excellence assisting brother composers and students was recounted with awe. He was too intelligent not to use this to advantage.

The aged Liszt was often compared to a Native American Chieftain. From what I've read in his own letters Liszt was counting coup most of his lifetime.
_________________________

Top
#2017616 - 01/20/13 12:49 AM Re: Liszt really sight-read Chopins etudes..? [Re: Mark_C]
Damon Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/22/06
Posts: 6168
Loc: St. Louis area
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Originally Posted By: Damon
I'm more optimistic. I know he's not averse to using technology to block Avatars and signatures. I'll go 70%

See? grin


You're the psychiatrist. smile I can't say whether I like Horowitz or Rubinstein better for sure, but I can say that I think they are both miles beyond who is in 3rd....and for the same reason. And they were both pretty good sight readers. I wonder if they approached Liszt in that ability.
_________________________
It's been scientifically proven that Horowitz sucks.

Top
#2017620 - 01/20/13 12:57 AM Re: Liszt really sight-read Chopins etudes..? [Re: Tararex]
argerichfan Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/15/06
Posts: 8904
Loc: Pacific Northwest, US.
Tararex, not sure what your post above was meant to convey. If it was educational, well I knew all that. I was simply pointing out that William Mason and Otis Boise (both Americans and presumably writing in English) were so remarkably similar in their reports, even using almost the same words. ('running commentary' vs 'running comments')

I don't doubt for a moment that each of them witnessed a life-changing event, I was just curious about the coincidence of the wording.
_________________________
Jason

Top
#2017628 - 01/20/13 01:38 AM Re: Liszt really sight-read Chopins etudes..? [Re: davaofthekeys]
Orange Soda King Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/25/09
Posts: 6070
Loc: Louisville, Kentucky, United S...
Wanna talk about great sight readers? Talk about John Ogdon. You know the Brahms 2nd concerto story, right?

Top
#2017629 - 01/20/13 01:39 AM Re: Liszt really sight-read Chopins etudes..? [Re: davaofthekeys]
btb Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 4261
Loc: Pretoria South Africa
So I said to Franz, I said ... what’s all this malarkey about playing a romping ditty by Fred off-the-cuff ... makes us amachurs look kind of silly ...
so, if you don’t mind ... get back to your reverent prayerful vocation ... and please use this fully paid-for (well nearly) train ticket to Timbuktu .

Yours faithfully,
Peter Sellers

Top
#2017639 - 01/20/13 02:04 AM Re: Liszt really sight-read Chopins etudes..? [Re: Orange Soda King]
argerichfan Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/15/06
Posts: 8904
Loc: Pacific Northwest, US.
Originally Posted By: Orange Soda King
Wanna talk about great sight readers? Talk about John Ogdon. You know the Brahms 2nd concerto story, right?

You sure, OSK? I thought it was the D minor. crazy

Yes, Ogdon was a legendary sight reader, but look at the amount of 20th century British piano concertos he championed! Staggering, he must have learned them overnight.
_________________________
Jason

Top
#2017640 - 01/20/13 02:06 AM Re: Liszt really sight-read Chopins etudes..? [Re: btb]
argerichfan Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/15/06
Posts: 8904
Loc: Pacific Northwest, US.
Originally Posted By: btb
Yours faithfully,
Peter Sellers

Or perhaps Peter Sellars?
_________________________
Jason

Top
#2017648 - 01/20/13 02:29 AM Re: Liszt really sight-read Chopins etudes..? [Re: davaofthekeys]
btb Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 4261
Loc: Pretoria South Africa
Sorry about that fan ... the boo-boo has been corrected ... but later re-corrected to the first copy.

Must just tell that my son has given me access to the Goon show legacy ... my latest is the "The Phantom head-shaver of Brighton" with Spike Milliagan, Peter Sellars and Harry Seacombe ... with rivetting start including the advisory of an "arab stench-recuperating centre in Stoke-Poges ... the play is considered unsuitable for people".

However, on the Goon Show site, they spell Peter's surname SELLERS ... so what about it?





Top
#2017660 - 01/20/13 03:49 AM Re: Liszt really sight-read Chopins etudes..? [Re: argerichfan]
Tararex Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/27/11
Posts: 408
Loc: Middle Georgia, USA
Originally Posted By: argerichfan
Tararex, not sure what your post above was meant to convey. If it was educational, well I knew all that. I was simply pointing out that William Mason and Otis Boise (both Americans and presumably writing in English) were so remarkably similar in their reports, even using almost the same words. ('running commentary' vs 'running comments')

I don't doubt for a moment that each of them witnessed a life-changing event, I was just curious about the coincidence of the wording.


I'm not following your logic. Two people describe the same feat accomplished at different times. Wouldn't it be suspicious if the accounts didn't sound the same?

"No features of the workmanship, contrapuntal or instrumental, escaped his notice, and he made running comments without interrupting his progress."

"Not only did he perform the scherzo in a masterly fashion, however, but also kept up a running commentary on the music—much to Brahms' amazement and delight."

Is there another way of describing the witness of mad sight reading skills while simultaneously commenting to others? If you were to ask 100 people of standard writing skill to describe a specific action accomplished by a specific person, even if repeated at 100 different times and locations, how could they not be "coincidental"?

That sameness of description of the observed skills strengthens the case that the event was as described.
_________________________

Top
#2017805 - 01/20/13 12:33 PM Re: Liszt really sight-read Chopins etudes..? [Re: btb]
BruceD Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 18134
Loc: Victoria, BC
Originally Posted By: btb
Sorry about that fan ... the boo-boo has been corrected ... but later re-corrected to the first copy.
[...]
However, on the Goon Show site, they spell Peter's surname SELLERS ... so what about it?


Peter Sellers ≠ Peter Sellars.

The former: a British comedian/actor, the latter an American theatre director. Hence the argerichfan's suggested (tongue-in-cheek?) reference to the latter.
_________________________
BruceD
- - - - -
Estonia 190

Top
#2017829 - 01/20/13 01:20 PM Re: Liszt really sight-read Chopins etudes..? [Re: BruceD]
Arghhh Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/31/08
Posts: 1149
Originally Posted By: BruceD
[/quote]

Peter Sellers ≠ Peter Sellars.

How did you get that "does not equal" sign in there?

And, OSK, I'm not familiar with the John Ogdon story. Care to share (and become a member of the 5000 post club)?

Top
#2017839 - 01/20/13 01:52 PM Re: Liszt really sight-read Chopins etudes..? [Re: Arghhh]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19800
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: Arghhh
How did you get that "does not equal" sign in there?

I wondered too.
How I'd try to do it: Find it on google and copy/paste it. Let's see if that works:



Bingo!!

But I suspect Bruce has a better way.

BTW I didn't know the Ogdon story either. I don't know if it's well known. Except among those who know it. grin

Top
#2017843 - 01/20/13 01:58 PM Re: Liszt really sight-read Chopins etudes..? [Re: davaofthekeys]
sophial Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/11/05
Posts: 3475
Loc: US
I don't know the Ogdon story, but there are credible accounts of Liszt's feats as well as those of Saint-Saens that have led to them being thought of as two of the greatest (if not the greatest) sight-readers ever.

Top
#2017895 - 01/20/13 03:21 PM Re: Liszt really sight-read Chopins etudes..? [Re: Mark_C]
BruceD Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 18134
Loc: Victoria, BC
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Originally Posted By: Arghhh
How did you get that "does not equal" sign in there?

I wondered too.
How I'd try to do it: Find it on google and copy/paste it. Let's see if that works:



Bingo!!

But I suspect Bruce has a better way.
[...]


Not necessarily a "better" way, just a different one. I copy and paste from a character map which is pinned to my task bar. Same idea, except that I don't have to go to Google to find it.

Regards,
_________________________
BruceD
- - - - -
Estonia 190

Top
#2018008 - 01/20/13 07:48 PM Re: Liszt really sight-read Chopins etudes..? [Re: Tararex]
argerichfan Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/15/06
Posts: 8904
Loc: Pacific Northwest, US.
Originally Posted By: Tararex

That sameness of description of the observed skills strengthens the case that the event was as described.

You have a valid point, no argument there, but was still curious about the similarity, not much else.
_________________________
Jason

Top
#2018018 - 01/20/13 07:57 PM Re: Liszt really sight-read Chopins etudes..? [Re: sophial]
argerichfan Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/15/06
Posts: 8904
Loc: Pacific Northwest, US.
Originally Posted By: sophial
I don't know the Ogdon story, but there are credible accounts of Liszt's feats as well as those of Saint-Saens that have led to them being thought of as two of the greatest (if not the greatest) sight-readers ever.

Indeed, but Brenda Lucas in her bio of her late husband, reports sight reading abilities that may very well be on the level of S-S or Liszt.

Full disclosure, this bio has been highly criticized by one particular member -who personally knew Ogdon- on the Radio 3 message board. There is reportedly a new bio in the works, though I don't think that Ogdon's talent as a sight reader or as a pianist who could learn instantly will be questioned.
_________________________
Jason

Top
#2018039 - 01/20/13 08:54 PM Re: Liszt really sight-read Chopins etudes..? [Re: argerichfan]
pianoloverus Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19465
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: argerichfan
Originally Posted By: sophial
I don't know the Ogdon story, but there are credible accounts of Liszt's feats as well as those of Saint-Saens that have led to them being thought of as two of the greatest (if not the greatest) sight-readers ever.

Indeed, but Brenda Lucas in her bio of her late husband, reports sight reading abilities that may very well be on the level of S-S or Liszt.

Full disclosure, this bio has been highly criticized by one particular member -who personally knew Ogdon- on the Radio 3 message board. There is reportedly a new bio in the works, though I don't think that Ogdon's talent as a sight reader or as a pianist who could learn instantly will be questioned.
That bio is quite depressing because there's much description of Ogdon's mental illness.

Top
#2018056 - 01/20/13 09:45 PM Re: Liszt really sight-read Chopins etudes..? [Re: pianoloverus]
argerichfan Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/15/06
Posts: 8904
Loc: Pacific Northwest, US.
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
That bio is quite depressing because there's much description of Ogdon's mental illness.

It was horrible reading, worse because Ogdon's diabetes was undiagnosed until too late.
_________________________
Jason

Top
#2018100 - 01/21/13 12:41 AM Re: Liszt really sight-read Chopins etudes..? [Re: davaofthekeys]
btb Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 4261
Loc: Pretoria South Africa
Thanks BruceD for the explanation (Sellars: American Theatre Director)... I can just imagine that all the chaps will now be using that cunning "≠" symbol to disagree ... saves a lot of unnecessary woids.

Top
#2018104 - 01/21/13 12:47 AM Re: Liszt really sight-read Chopins etudes..? [Re: btb]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19800
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: btb
Thanks BruceD for the explanation (Sellars: American Theatre Director)... I can just imagine that all the chaps will now be using that cunning "≠" symbol to disagree ... saves a lot of unnecessary woids.

Yeah, except he didn't use it to mean disagree. He used the "doesn't equal" sign to mean, doesn't equal. grin


Here's what people should use for "disagree":


Top
#2018106 - 01/21/13 12:57 AM Re: Liszt really sight-read Chopins etudes..? [Re: davaofthekeys]
btb Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 4261
Loc: Pretoria South Africa
Thanks Mark C ... I need a 2nd morning cup of tea to cotton on properly to the fine print ... but won't disagree with you too much ... so you can take your
head-shaking sign down.

Top
Page 1 of 6 1 2 3 4 5 6 >

Moderator:  Brendan, Kreisler 
What's Hot!!
8 Live Ragtime Piano Players on the Cape!
-------------------
HOW TO POST PICTURES on the Piano Forums
-------------------
Sharing is Caring!
About the Buttons
-------------------
(125ad) Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
Ad (Seiler/Knabe)
Knabe Pianos
Sheet Music
(PW is an affiliate)
Sheet Music Plus Featured Sale
(ad) HAILUN Pianos
Hailun Pianos - Click for More
(ad) Lindeblad Piano
Lindeblad Piano Restoration
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Is A443 banned definitively?
by Olek
40 minutes 55 seconds ago
Ritmuller Grand Pianos - Help!
by Mike RSA
45 minutes 43 seconds ago
J.D.Grandt Bass Strings Opinions Please
by chernobieff
Yesterday at 11:48 PM
Which Electronic Sounds & Feels Most Like Real?
by MinstrelandMuse
Yesterday at 11:47 PM
fun music theory
by David Farley
Yesterday at 07:56 PM
Who's Online
69 registered (angga888, Anne H, beet31425, bjorn of brekkukot, CheerioLee, 16 invisible), 1129 Guests and 13 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Stats
76633 Members
42 Forums
158462 Topics
2327024 Posts

Max Online: 15252 @ 03/21/10 11:39 PM
(ads by Google)

Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
|
Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World | Donate | Link to Us | Classifieds |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter | Press Room |


copyright 1997 - 2014 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission