Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Pianist Corner chopin's 1st Ballade, please help

i have been playing for a good year and a half now and piano has come very easy to me. iv learned and perfect quite a few diffrent pieces that i have been told were quite difficult and it is very rare for someone like myself who has not been playing for that long of a time to be playing them this well.

2 summers ago i was sitting on my chair in my room watching TV. i was slightly intrested in keyboarding at the time so i kept my eyes open for any movies that might have piano. but then i saw it, the pianist was on, witch is a movie about WW2 and the hollocaust. its not a bad movie at all. anyways towrds the end Adrian Brody (the main actor) plays a chopped up version of Chopins first ballade. after this scene was done i was awestruck and found myself with a burning desire to play piano, perticulary that piece.

after stumbling onto a magnificent gift and finding i could feel out any music i got my hands on. im finly tackeling the ballade. iv halfassingly got through about half the piece (due to a recitle i was practicing for) and find myself a bit baffled with the speed it takes in certian areas. basicly getting to the point i need some advise on this piece, iv listened to it hundreds of times so i know the dynamics pretty well, but i find it hard to understand the areas that are real fast.

thanks for your time

A year and a half?If you were able to learn the ballade within a year in a half of playing the piano we'd be watching you on television.

The ballade is not going to come out how you want it no matter how much effort you put into it. You have to be at a certain pianistic level to play this piece. This is a very hard and very tricky piece. The ballades are some of Chopin's most tricky pieces with the exception of the Heroic Polonaise, Grande Polonaise, Etudes, And the Scherzi. You shouldn't play any of these songs.

Have you done scales, Hanon? I'd also advise getting a teacher, and starting with some Bach.
You shouldn't be going near a Chopin ballade until you've learned at least one Bach Prelude and Fugue, and a Beethoven Sonata.

thank you for your advise, but im afraid i can't take it, i know its a bad idea to start so high, but iv been told this before and have proven people wrong, thank you though

Hi,

I find myself in rather a similar situation. I've been playing a lot less (2 months, but with years of e.keyboard experience), but went through similar thoughts.

I'm also a big fan of the movie, so when i got my first piano, the first piece i've 'learned' is the Nocturne in C#min (at the start of the film). I've tried the same Ballade but only managed a page and a half. It wasnt due to the difficulty (at that point, things are still fairly sedate), just because I was working on other things.

The piece that really 'got me' was the one at the end (Grande Polonaise) - thats the one i'm desperate to play. I told people on the board a few days ago (my message will be back a page on the board), and the response was either:

1) Work your way up to it, dont go into battle without a decent set of weapons (so to speak)

2) Say 'what the heck' and go for it! The warning i got was that if you do go for it, there is a danger that you may emerge many months later with less love for the piece than when you started. Thats even if you can get through it - the fast parts look real tough!

3) However, and i've found this myself. Think of who you will play the piece to. If you are giving formal recitals, maybe waiting until technique has improved is for the best. If you are just playing to family and friends, and who might not know the piece in finer detail, then i'm sure you could make their jaws drop regards of the accuracy. By no means is my version of Chopins Nocturne accurate, but to my friends, it looks like fairly decent playing, and a great tune. That in turn, makes me happy and proud.

I think the bottom line is 'Have fun', and if it feels right, then it probably is!!

"You shouldn't be going near a Chopin ballade until you've learned at least one Bach Prelude and Fugue, and a Beethoven Sonata."

I agree, you HAVE to work this way if you want to be a well rounded musician. I used to think I could coast on the romantic warhorses, until my teacher showed me that it's much better to develop a rounded repetoire before going after the big pieces.

No one has the right to tell you anything about
what you can or cannot play, or what you
have to play before you can play something.

You might be more specific about what you're
having problems with. Is it that
you're having a hard time playing the fast
sections? This would not be surprising
since you're playing this after only
a yr. and a half at the piano. You wouldn't
have the specific physical technique for
the fast sections after only a yr. and a half,
and you'll need to essentially develop
this technique from scratch for the piece,
which means starting at a slow speed and
very gradually speeding it up over many
repetitions--it's not realistic to expect
that you can rattle off the fast sections
from the start, regardless of the quick
progress you've made thus far. This is
a concert pianist-level piece, usually
taken on by those with many yrs. of
training. If you want to play this after
only 1 1/2 yrs. of training, then you'll
need to take some time to develop the
physical technique for the fast sections.
Just how long this would take depends on
a lot of factors, but I'd figure on at
least several months, but I wouldn't rush it
and I'd suggest taking longer.

Perhaps a recording can prove us wrong?

Please don't.

I understand your desire to play this piece, but the whole learning of it will be detrimental to you in the long run.

once again, i must step in on this, despite people like canadian accusing me of being a troll. ive made the same mistake about trying to attempt pieces far above my level, and believe me, you should know very shortly if its going to work out or not. its simply retarded to think in terms of "break it down into tiny sections and it doesnt seem so bad" or whatever. i'd also like to apologize for antagonizing people here

I think that Roman Polanski--directory of the Pianist, Adrian Brody, and Chopin would all be pleased to know that their art has inspired you!

I think some of the other users are trying to advise you with respect to building technique, voicing, and urging experience through other less-endowed piece so when you tackle this Ballade it will be more forthcoming: naturally I concur. If playing the Ballad brings great joy to you, by all means go ahead and play!

You have asked for advice for the fast sections (fingering ? ), but what exactly are you looking for or trying to ask?

If you like the Ballade then by all means learn it. However since you have only been playing for less than two years then be warned for the Ballade is for pianists with lots of experience. There is nothing wrong with learning pieces outside the skill range but pianists aspiring to play the Ballade without the necessary technical and musical requisites may become frustrated due to lack of progress.

I have learnt piano for 12 years, then I stopped for 7 years and after that I got back into the piano starting with the Ballade. Having not played for 7 years and getting back into it by playing a very hard piece is very daunting. 6 months later I can play about 80% of the Ballade (beginning, the coda and most of the middle section). I admit that it could be much shorter if I concentrated on that song only, but I learnt more songs along the way, that are easier with respect to the Ballade, but still keeps you sharp. I suggest you don't concentrate fully on the Ballade and work on some other Chopin pieces, e.g. some waltzes, nocturnes, preludes or etudes. They are all beautiful in their own right. Learning some easier Chopin can make the Ballade easier as you pick up critical aspects in technique and musicality. Can you play other Chopin? If so, would you like to list them here?

I hope this doesn't discourage you from playing the Ballade, but it is a beautiful piece and playing it badly doesn't do justice to it.

For some [very apparent] reason people are compelled to play this piece immaturely. It's probably because of those people that I can't stand listening to alot of amateur recordings of this particular ballade. Even if you are able to hit the notes and play with correct dynamics, it is incredibly hard to play such difficult things musically with only a year and a half of playing the piano.

I understand your reasons for wanting to play it, but take it from us who have spent quite a bit more time than you playing the piano and DON'T touch this piece.

Yet.

Well you can touch it. I don't have the right to say what you can and can't play. I just mean don't try to learn it so seriously and spend more time working on pieces that you can develop something from and soon enough with the right amount of effort you'll be playing this ballade like none other.

Trust me.

I agree with those who think "if you love the work, go for it, even if it is way above your current level". I also agree with those who warn strongly about working on stuff before you're technically ready.

The G minor was the first Chopin ballade I learned. I began tinkering with it in high school, unbeknownst to my piano teacher, and when I presented it to him as something I wanted to study, he reluctanctly allowed me. It was a total mess. Because of the bad habits I had acquired, and the devastating experience that ensued, it is unfortunately forever marred. Out of all four, it's my weakest. This is one bit of history I desperately wish I could rewrite.

thank you all so much, this was my first post and im glad i made it because i have learned alot. there was a point before where i did try this piece. and i relized very quickly that it was far to difficult. but now im finding it a ton easyer and i do know that i shouldnt push myself to hard so fast. aferall who wants to try to bench press 300 pounds when you can barly do a 100 right?

even though this is true, my teacher herself has told me she thinks im ready for this. she is a very acomplished as a piano player and is extreamly knowladgeble

reading back what i wrote before, i feel dumb for not being more specific. basicly i relize this is a concert level piece and i relize theres a chance its going to come out sounding like ****. but i also relize if i take it slowly and a little bit at a time, i should be okay. but the kind of advise im looking for, is like how to aproach it, i need to know if certian parts should just be learned and to just go back on them later, if theres a certian version with better fingering than another, right now im doing a version from who i believe to be Paderewski, but i could be compleatly wrong on that. and if anyone has a recoring of perhaps themself or another person of this piece that could perhaps direct me. advise such as how fast to take the first few pages how to take the piece itself on, as in section for secion, or just full out, because right now im doing it section for secion and its working great. idk, just if anyone has some knowlage besides its hard, your not ready, iv been hearen that for a long time and no ones been right so far, so please be nice

i'll put recording up in a few months

PRACTICE THE CODA, PRACTICE THE CODA, PRACTICE THE CODA

I've been playing for 30 years. I picked up the Ballade and put it down a few times. From the movie there is another piece, the Nocturne in C Sharp which is nearer your level and even that is pretty challenging in parts. The difficulty of the Ballade is mainly the Sherzando which of course is very fast. After one year of piano I don't know...

Well I don't think a recording is necessary to prove us wrong.
Just go to the last page. Counting from last measure to the beginning try these:
Set your metronome to 144 and,
1- Play the octaves in the last 5th and 4th measures as three octaves per beat if this is okay move to 2.
2- Go to measure 17 (again counting backwards from the end) where the descending scale in the right hand with 16th notes begins. Play these (measures 17-16) as 6 notes per beat using only right hand. If okay move to 3.
3- Go to measure 14 where the ascending octave scale in both hands begins. Play it as 6 notes per beat. If okay move to 4.
4- Go to measure 10 where ascending scale of 10ths in both hands begins. Play it as 6 notes per beat. If okay go to measure 1 (counting from the beginning of the ballade) start learning this wonderful ballade and enjoy the music.

(Well, if others agree, you can set the metronome to 120)

Dear pianoguy,

If your teacher told you you are ready to handle it, then go for it. After all, she knows your playing abilities better than we do.

Having said that: I would caution you that the coda IS technically challenging. Do one phrase at a time, each hand separately, and GRADUALLY bring up to ~80% tempo. Remember, you have to be completely relaxed, and have everything ingrained in your brain, before moving up to the next speed.
Being impatient in this process can be bad in two ways. First, you may develop bad habits (tension in hands, unnatural hand positions, etc.)that cost you time in the long run, and cause much frustration. Secondly, you may hurt your hands. So, be really observant of how your hands are handling a particular passage. If there's any pain, stop, and consult with your teacher!! If she can't tell you how to solve that problem, then you should put the Ballade aside for now.

It sounds like you've got talent, and I respect your enthusiasm. Just be sure to take care of your hands, and be patient. Best of luck,

--c5

thank you so much! thats pretty much exactly what i needed to hear, i'll be carefull