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So I'm doing Hanon exercises for the first time this week (just had my first lesson) and was interested in getting some feedback on your experiences with it.
What do you think best describes your experience and how long have you been doing it?
1. Dramatically improved my playing ability 2. Helped marginally, but was worth it 3. Helped marginally, but there is high price to pay (cost much greater than the benefit) 4. Was a waste of time
Of course, after doing it for only two days, I really don't have any opinion (other than it is rather mind numbing) and don't want to make any prejudgements, but I'm curious what others have experienced.
Would love to hear your thoughts on this.
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Hanon can be as beneficial - to a degree - or as useless as you wish to make those exercises. For the beginning student, because so much of Hanon - almost all of it, as a matter of fact - is unison playing of the two hands, Hanon can help with getting both hands absolutely together. If used properly, these exercises can be used in getting the stronger hand leading the weaker hand and thus helping to develop the weaker hand. If played with attention to touch and dynamics, Hanon can be helpful in learning to control both. If played mindlessly as a thoughtless, repetitious drill, Hanon won't do too much, although may eventually help with some finger dexterity if not independence.
For the more advanced player, there are other exercises that require more concentration, more thought and are more challenging, but whose benefits may be realized more quickly than those from Hanon.
Regards,
BruceD - - - - - Estonia 190
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I agree with what BruceD said, they helped me a lot and although I don't really play them anymore (I've gotten hooked on the Brahms exercises, there's a lot to learn from them) I am very glad my teacher suggested I worked on a dozen or so. I think I got improvements in almost every way you could imagine. Just make sure you do them the right way - slowly at first, and concentrate on evenness, tone, dynamics (experiment with different combinations of dynamics in each hand, crescendos etc), and speed them up once you feel under control. In my opinion there is not a lot to gain from blitzing through them at a speedy tempo - speed is probably one of the easier techniques to pick up (if it can be considered one).
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I've done very little Hanon myself and developed my technical skills in other ways. Hanon (or any other mechanical exercise), played incorrectly could be a very bad thing. So it's a lot about how one plays because in the end it is the technique that you are working on. I've used more musical exercises and of course extensive work on scales and actual music.
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Hanon is repetition, repetition, repetition of a positional pattern - it's not a hard concept to grasp on any one exercise.
It is like marathon training - and stamina at the piano. A "sports" application rather than "artistic".
He's given us so many to do, but we can be discerning and give attention to some without feeling compelled to do all. Take what you need from them over a very long time (your lifetime) as there is not big need to delve into them at the elimination of other things. Anything which helps in equalizing finger movement and strength improvement deserves your attention.
It is a challenge to keep them going - linked together in a long string. If you just devote the time to them almost mindlessly you can receive quite a bit of benefit in my opinion.
There are many approaches to technical skills. I feel they must first of all be appropriate to music assignments in the literature you are studying. They are most useful in the student's development stage.
I'd say don't neglect some of them. They each have specific benefits. (My opinion)
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I'm just a mess-around pianist for my own fun, so my opinion is not as important as the more serious pianists. However, I find that a selection of Hanon and the first basic Brahms' excercises are excellent for starting my fingers moving. But only for a very short time, and carefully.
"Play Bach for me". (How Chopin ended his letters.)
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Originally posted by Betty Patnude: [...] It is a challenge to keep them going - linked together in a long string. If you just devote the time to them almost mindlessly you can receive quite a bit of benefit in my opinion. (My opinion) I don't agree with (your opinion) that doing Hanon - or any other exercise - "almost mindlessly" is the most efficient way to reap whatever benefits they may offer. Regards,
BruceD - - - - - Estonia 190
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For me 1. Dramatically improved my playing ability However, This was so, because I used them in the beginning of my piano career. So, Hanon was the chief source of my conditioning to play. Like Betty wrote: "They are most useful in the student's development stage." I agree. In addition, I'd like to point out that most of the profit does not come from the 1-20 in section one but latter exercises found in sections two and three.
David
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BruceD
It's mindless in that there are hand shape positions, rhythms, sequences set up patterns in the first measure, throughout the exercise and at midnight a reverse to descending - there is nothing new to it. It is easily learned. There is no need to look at every upcoming notes and checking the fingering constantly. It plays itself once you analyze the task in the first measure. Mindless does not mean stupid or lacking in control at the piano - and it is not an insult - it means Hanon is simply easy to execute compared to other technique exercises available.
If any exercise needs your continued present moment attention to execute it, it would be an indication that you should continue doing it until it feels like a natural, automatic process, and you can "ace" it easily. It's a comfort level, too.
I always recomment careful, accurate work, which you will never regret, and initiating slowly and gradually increasing until effortless.
(Again, my educated by experience opinion).
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Hanon is good for the above listed reasons, and also for pattern recognition. Students do not naturally understand patterns in music, so more Hanon generally equates to a better and quicker grasp of finger and musical patterns. Once you learn the first bar, the rest should be easy.
Hanon is also good for reinforcing transference of momentum from finger to finger.
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Originally posted by Betty Patnude: BruceD
It's mindless in that there are hand shape positions, rhythms, sequences set up patterns in the first measure, throughout the exercise and at midnight a reverse to descending - there is nothing new to it. It is easily learned. There is no need to look at every upcoming notes and checking the fingering constantly. It plays itself once you analyze the task in the first measure. Mindless does not mean stupid or lacking in control at the piano - and it is not an insult - it means Hanon is simply easy to execute compared to other technique exercises available.
Yes, I agree with you there. The formulaic patterns enable you to concentrate on other aspects of playing. I was thinking of the poster in another thread a few days ago who wondered about doing exercises like this and scales while reading a novel. That, to me, is mindless - and pointless - piano playing. Regards,
BruceD - - - - - Estonia 190
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BruceD,
Your right about that topic - it is insulting to the book, it is insulting to the piano, and a huge statement about the person who thinks that is a reasonable expectation to even consider.
Our frenetic lives condition us to try to multiplex through our day. We're in danger of having shallow experiences. The faster we go, the behinder we get.
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I heard that liszt, when he was young, did his excercises - scales, arpeggios etc - while reading a book, though...
About hanon - don't forget that Rachmaninoff usually warmed up with hanon.
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I would say no. 2 on your list...
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1. Dramatically improved!!
Hanon is wonderful! But to prevent boredom I do some variations with my students. There are several rhythmic variations listed in my edition. I like to do the dotted rhythm, and reverse-dotted rhythm.
I also try dynamic variations (cresc. and dim. within a measure; R.H. louder than L.H.; L.H. louder than R.H.). If you are daring, try starting the R.H. two notes ahead of the L.H., and then vice versa.
I spend about a year on Hanon with all of my students. I see that they can play "hands together" much better, and the exercises really help with finger dexterity. You get cleaner runs and passage work out of these kids.
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Originally posted by WildAtHeart: I'm just a mess-around pianist ... You must be fan of Ray Charles then.
working on: Goldberg Variations
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I have found Hanon to have limited usefulness - when I have been away from practicing for a long time working through the exercises will strengthen and coordinate my touch - 'bring it back' - pretty efficiently.
On the other hand technical exercises of this sort create a sort of dependence - since over time you get better and better AT PLAYING THIS PARTICULAR EXERCISE you develop the impression that you are getting more accomplished IN GENERAL, when in fact all you have done is become good at playing Hanon. It becomes difficult to break it off because you (or - more accurately - I) start to judge your ability based on your facility with Hanon. You would do better to put that time into real music.
Hanon has a complete set of scales with fingering - and also chromatic exercises and fingering - that useful to have in one place.
"There are so many mornings that have not yet dawned." -- Rg Veda
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Originally posted by Schubertian: On the other hand technical exercises of this sort create a sort of dependence - since over time you get better and better AT PLAYING THIS PARTICULAR EXERCISE you develop the impression that you are getting more accomplished IN GENERAL, when in fact all you have done is become good at playing Hanon. Yes, but wouldn't that equally apply to the Czerny studies? A fully mastered Czerny only prepares one to study yet another empty Czerny study. IMO, there is nothing in Czerny that prepares one for the "real thing". They're a waste of time, although great for sightreading. At least with Hanon (up to #30) there is a certain concentrated 5 finger development, and transposing them is highly recommended. Try Hanon in a remote key, then play scales and arpeggios in that same key: very positive results, and a great warm-up if one has not recently practised. But ultimately, more beneficial 5 finger exercises are found in Dohnanyi's Essential Exercises. Overtime one will (with proper practise) become better at playing them, yet those gains will most definitely transfer to the legitimate piano literature. And one will emphatically not become good at only playing Dohnanyi.
Jason
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Let's remind everyone who likes variety with their Hanon to search for the words jazz Hanon and Samba Hanon. It has been under discussion very recently.
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Actually, I found Hanon to be a lot of help at some times....
The exercises for repeated notes, tremolos, and trills with the 4&5 fingers helped my technique improve drastically and enabled me to play some things with ease...
However, to tell you the truth, I'd only use Hanon for those virtuositc techniques and for coordination with the two hands...I wouldn't really use it for relaxation of the hands or for the finger flexibility...I'd use Czerny's op.740 or Clementi's Gradus ad Parnassum for the more commonly needed technique required...
This is my opinion, and hope this helps!
-Drudged
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1. improved my playing ability pretty well but I wouldn't say dramatically but this might be different for a beginner
Almost daily Hanon exercises from 20 onwards have helped me to play a lot better than before I took them. I cannot dismiss them.
I learnt them 50 to 100 and tried to be strict on tempo, touch etc. Then I went and played all of them in all 12 keys. Then I played them with alternating rythym. Then I played them in sixths, in twelfths. Now I just take a different scale every day and play the Hanon in it and supplement with other practice.
My conclusion: do it every day, play in time, concentrate on the exercise; no more than half an hour at most; think positive, and after one week of this you will play the piano better.
One thing has puzzled me though and it is that some teachers advocate that you lift up each finger. Someone please tell me is this really necessary and why?
It don't mean a ting if it don't have dat swing
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Originally posted by Schubertian: On the other hand technical exercises of this sort create a sort of dependence - since over time you get better and better AT PLAYING THIS PARTICULAR EXERCISE I don't agree with you (and would be inclined to say you are actually wrong). The early exercises are not so useful to a more experienced pianist, but the trills and thumb passing exercises are always useful to practise (and obviously thumb passing is a precursor to a good legato technique). Exercises 50-60 basically prepare you for any technical difficulty, and have a wide variety of possible variations and applications. I'd add (again! - must have been said a lot so far) that the worst thing you could possibly do is treat them as an isolated exercise and as a finger drill - you have to put the effort in to stop them sounding mechanical. Once they stop sounding like mechanical exercises, you are well equipped to transfer these skills to other pieces. It's much better to not have to repeatedly practise multiple passages/pages because you can't overcome technical difficulties (I guarantee your interpretation will suffer, and you wont enjoy learning it so much), but instead work purely on interpretative difficulties and concentrating on tone and phrasing (the SOUND) rather than what your fingers have to do.
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Whenever this Hanon discussion comes around, I always feel that the real debate is on the first 31 exercises. This is only half of the amount of exercises however (and almost a quater of the number of pages).
Out of exercises 1 - 20, I'd say no.1 - no.8 and also no.10 are worth doing, at most. The rest, I feel, are just working on the same aspects of hands/playing. The same goes for 21 - 31; they're not all worth doing. 31 is a fun one to include though.
The exercises working on the thumb-under; these are worthwhile. It can be tedious. But I feel that it's helpful. The scales and arps generally are accepted to be very important. Also included in the book are various chromatic exercises and dominant 7 arps, which are all very important to practice.
Most of the content of Part III is crucial. Repeated notes, broken octave arps, thrills; these are all very imporant to practice.
I think the real question is how to use the content of the book. The scales, arps, octaves should be included in a warmup routine or something. Don't play 24 keys all in one sitting! Just take a single key per day for example playing all these things in that key (this is discussed in another topic, something on "routine"). As for the rest, just spend 20 min on a particular few exercises, and move onto other ones the next day.
Basically, I think the key to using the book effectively is to break down it's tedious nature.
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Originally posted by Arabesque: One thing has puzzled me though and it is that some teachers advocate that you lift up each finger. Someone please tell me is this really necessary and why? Maybe you're partly refering to something stated at the start of the book: "Lift the fingers high with percision". You can do that. I think it's an older kind of thinking though. It may look like great strength is being gained. Fingers require "control" most importantly however. When you play a very fast scale, there's not enough time for the fingers to be dropping from a great height. I don't think lifting fingers high will bring many great benefits.
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I began practicing Hanon one by one 3 years ago. I eventually began to run through all 20 as a warm up. This helped me a great deal in the beginning. My finger dexterity improved tremendously. After about a year of Hanon, I began to feel that it was not helping as much as I used to. I began to focus more on Czerny, Bach inventions, and scales for my exersises.
Now I use the Dohnányi which focuses on more than one area of technique.
Matt
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QUOTE BY ALAN G: "Basically, I think the key to using the book effectively is to break down it's tedious nature."
Definitely, I'm glad you emphasized that.
Over time, you can have the goal of having explored everything in all of Hanon, but some exercises are more appropriate and necessary at certain levels or with certain music literature assignments. I would not use it page by page, and I too, have favorites in teaching to meet specific hand development needs.
I like Hanon as a useful tool, but if someone played by turning each page consecutively, and took the exercises through each key, (as someone has done in the posting above) I would consider that noble of them, as it is tiring, with no or little relief. However, I find it purposeful for specific things and smaller bites (How do you eat an elephant? One bite at a time.)
If we think it's tedious to play, think of how tedious it was for Hanon to have come up with it in the order that it is in, in the first place.
It is definitely concrete/sequential work and would drive a random/abstract nuts.
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Dramatically improved.
Hanon is used as part of the daily warm-up.
It is essential to learn the Hanon exercises with a teacher (mine is an emeritus conservatory professor) in order to learn technique. BUT the teacher must be first rate and understand Hanon.
Hanon is not simply playing each exercise as written. There are many variation for each exercise that cannot be learned by playing alone. Many of the variations have to be demonstrated in order to understand the concept and purpose of the particular exercise.
Many of the exercises are skipped around. Many of the exercises are played in conjunction with other authors/composers exercises. All in the course of laying the foundation. Moreover, observation of a student’s playing the exercises (ususally just a couple of measures) is essential for a teacher’s evaluation of progress in technique and physical approach to pianoforte.
By the way, the above also applies to Czerny, Brahms, Pischna, etc.. Just wait till you progress to Liszt’ Technical Studies in preparation for his Etudes & Rhapsodies. Nevertheless, Hanon still starts the day off after the initial stretching exercises.
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I would have to disagree. my 2 cents Hanon is a slow and inefficient way of building technique. not to mention a little out of date
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Thanks for all your responses. It's interesting how everyone has had a different experience with this. Most said it was helpful (at least, to a degree), while a couple said it was a waste (or inefficient use) of time.
Onto my second question.
How many times did you have to practice exercise 1 before you felt comfortable that you had mastered it (or at least, could play it to your own satisfaction). I've been doing it (every day) for a couple of weeks now and am wondering how long it will take me. Although I still think my technique is still pretty poor, its a lot better than the first day.
100 times? 500, 1,000, 10,000? I realize its a loaded question and that every one progresses at a different pace (and that you probably have not counted), but how long did it take you to master exercise 1?
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about 10-20 minutes.
to get to full speed.
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I'm sorry, I must have misphrased that. I meant from the first time you ever laid eyes on it until you could play it to your satisfaction. ;-)
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I did excercises 1-60 every day for 3 months... 2 or 3 summers ago. They help somewhat, but there are much faster and more efficient ways of building technique.
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i recently started cramer, and i think theyre great, thuogh i take aaaaaaaaaaaaaaages todo just one. ive never tried hanon, only seen the score, and i know this sounds kinda stupid but from what it looked as a quick glimpse of the scores was lots of repetition of semiquavers and dint look that interesting!!! Go Cramer!
Patience's the best teacher, and time the best critic. - F.F.Chopin
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Originally posted by BruceD: Hanon can be as beneficial - to a degree - or as useless as you wish to make those exercises. For the beginning student, because so much of Hanon - almost all of it, as a matter of fact - is unison playing of the two hands, Hanon can help with getting both hands absolutely together. If used properly, these exercises can be used in getting the stronger hand leading the weaker hand and thus helping to develop the weaker hand. If played with attention to touch and dynamics, Hanon can be helpful in learning to control both. If played mindlessly as a thoughtless, repetitious drill, Hanon won't do too much, although may eventually help with some finger dexterity if not independence.
For the more advanced player, there are other exercises that require more concentration, more thought and are more challenging, but whose benefits may be realized more quickly than those from Hanon.
Regards, nuff said.
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I have never tried Hanon, or seen any of his exercises, i'm thinking of trying Czerny's 100 short studies (I think thats the name) as it seems to be one of the easier Czerny books, that focuses more directly than some of his other works on real siuations you may come across when playing pieces for the piano. Along side my collection I have Czerny's school of velocity and his 40 daily studies which are not for the faint hearted, on day in the near futur I wish to possibly start these 40 daily studies, even though some look harshly impossible. Another reason I think i'll start with his 100 studies is because many dont take that long too grasp so you can get the benifit by repeating the exercises straight away. Where as if I started with Czerny's 40 daily studies, i would actualy have to spend much MORE time getting everything under my fingers correctly first, so the benifit would come much later.... so has anyone here found his 100 short studies useful?
Thanks,
The Entertainer = )
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It takes me about 5 minutes from start to finish to learn and play a Hanon at full speed. But it may take me a week or two to let it settle into my fingers and body, and another week or two to analyze the exercise to see if I'm doing anything bad (extra tension, etc.).
Playing all the exercises is indeed a waste of time. Some of those exercises can be replaced with scales, or exercises that are developed out of repertoire. We have to cherry pick what's useful. I'd tell you which ones were the most useful to me, but a student has made off with the Hanon book I've had ever since I was 8 or so and hasn't given it back yet.
Good thing I know where she lives.
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Originally posted by Mr_Kitty: I did excercises 1-60 every day for 3 months... 2 or 3 summers ago. They help somewhat, but there are much faster and more efficient ways of building technique. As in the Dohnanyi exercises, though they aren't for beginners. Yet in the past I've played my share of Hanon.
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I'm trying to figure out if my fourth and fifth fingers are abnormally retarded or if the people that can do this in less than half an hour (time elapsed from from seeing it for the first time to perfection) are substantially more advanced than myself.
This is my first month of lessons and I've been doing exercise one for a couple of weeks now, but it still seems like I've still got a long way to go on this particular exercise - simply trying to get a feel for how 'long' that really means, so I don't frustrated.
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Akira,
I suggest you develop the LH alone first on the Hanon 1 if you are still having trouble on the ex 1 after several weeks. The RH plays easier and faster for most people making it feel "strange" in the LH.
The pattern is in the first measure, but it uses all 5 fingers in consecutive order even though the exercise is spaced over a distance of 6 notes. Have you carefully figured out the pattern and then just followed it as it proceeds upward to the "turning around" point? There is no need to be thinking about every note. The difficulty is probably getting the skip correctly - all the other notes are conjunct (neighbors).
There we also a slight rolling in the direction of the finger movement as they play, and of course, a rounded finger position which allows you to play on the tips of your fingers. You do not want to play with extended fingers.
The objective is to transfer cleanly to the next note and for it to be a smooth connection from one to the other.
What are you having trouble with? What is it about your 4th an 5th fingers? The 4th is incapable of lifting high, the 5th is weaker being smallest and shortest.
Betty
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Hi Betty:
If I do it at (M.M) 60, it sounds okay to me. I can hit all the notes (most of the time) and to my untrained ear, they sound pretty distinct. My RH definitely feels like it has more control than the LH. As a little experiment (I don't practice this), I tried simply going as fast as I could, and found what I thought would happen. The RH goes faster than the left and found myself having to slow the right to allow the left to stay in sync.
I am doing the slight roll (my teacher advised the same), as you suggested.
I think my main challenge right now, is when I start to ramp up the speed. As I try to go faster, I can feel the notes getting less distinct ([a] most pronounced on the left between 3 and 4 when descending, like the two are being slurred together and [b] an ever so slight unwanted pause RH 5, when descending), as well as the two hands starting to get slightly out of sync. I slow back down and its fine again.
I normally practice without a metronome, but do you think this would help with eventually ramping up the speed if I used it more often, perhaps just clicking it up a knotch when I can play a certain speed comfortably? I haven't timed it, but I think when I go faster, I must be going 10 or 20 clicks faster.
Or, at this juncture, are my fingers simply not strong enough or have the required dexterity needed for additional speed?
Many thanks for your advice. I knew you'd come to my rescue. :-)
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Akira,
Be extremely patient with the LH as it develops, and I hear what you are saying. I would suggest working out with the 4th finger by moving to a table top, putting all fingers in a rounded position to play in the finger tips, then holding all fingers down except for the 4 which will do slow quiet tapping. (8 to 10 are plenty at any one time.)
Then using the same finger, do finger extentions (flat and pointing while holding all other fingers down - you shouldn't need to press the holding fingers. Go slowly, rushing does not help you want deliberate action.
After doing these for a few days, combine the two exercises together so 1)tap 2)extend 1)tap 2 extend - which can be done at a faster pace.
Don't get caught trying to go faster. Faster comes when the mind is ready and the fingers are ready. It's a gift from the brain - it cannot be forced. Don't let the hesitation, starting or stopping creep in - keep the place slow enough to do a steady tempo without interruption.
You want to get the hands working in unison together without one jumping ahead and the other falling behind.
Could you try the 2nd Hanon and see how that goes for you?
How much times per day/minutes are you spending on Hanon #1, can I ask?
Hope this helps you!
Betty
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Hi Betty:
I appreciate your generous advice. I will try the finger exercises you suggested and let you know how next week how it goes. Actually, I just gave it a try a moment ago and can feel muscles in my fourth finger that I didn't know I had. Feels very awkward, which I assume will go away over time.
I hear you on the going faster part. Seemed like the next logical step after I could do it semi-decently at 60.
My teacher had me start exercise 2 about two weeks after I started exercise 1. I was silently thinking 'wait a minute, I don't think we've quite mastered #1,' but didn't want second guess his judgement. Ex. 2 felt very awkward at first (just as #1 did, in the beginning), but the awkwardness subsided much more quickly this time. Although I've played Ex. 2 substantially less than Ex. 1, somehow it actually feels more comfortable for me. I don't know why. Wierd, same five fingers...
I've tried to practice 1 and 2 (equally) every day, but the total amount of time varies. I'll do it in 10 to 15 minutes intervals throughout the day (I have the luxury of being able to work out of my home), maybe four to five times a day.
And, yes, that does help. Thanks so much.
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4
Seeing my signature, I feel I must explain myself. See, we play musical instruments to make music, no? So how can exercises that are not music help you to play music better? Granted, everyone will say that scales and arpeggios are a staple in every practice session, and I agree, but that is it. You cannot play Hanon intelligently, no matter what you think. It is not music, cannot be made into music, cannot model music, and therefore cannot be of any use to get better at making music. Some say you can use Hanon as a warm-up. That's great, but let me point back to scales and arpeggios, and I will tell you that if I ever need to warm-up (which I do not do during practice sessions because it is important to develop the ability to play "cold"), I always use Christian Sinding's Rustles of Spring. It's beautiful, it's music, and it's full of scales and arpeggios. My Hanon book is safely stored away in the attic, where it belongs. If, however, you still feel you need an exercise book to build up your technique, might I suggest purchasing a copy of Bach's complete Two and Three-part Inventions? They'll work much better for you.
And, by the way, doesn't the fact that it's called The Virtuoso Pianist in 60 Exercises make it sound like a 'get rich quick' scam to you? That's what it is, a scam. It's not a shame the money we waste on buying an edition. What's a shame is the time we waste on it.
Piano Hero Encore Rocks the 1800s!
Current Assignments: Bach Prelude and Fugue in Bb Maj, D min, and C Maj from Bk I Mozart Sonata K.280 Brahms Rhapsody Op. 79 No. 2 Bartok Six Roumanian Folk Dances Prokofieff Visions Fugitives Op. 22
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i suppose it would help you play music better coz youre getting better tech. tho, so youll have more control over what youre doing.
Patience's the best teacher, and time the best critic. - F.F.Chopin
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Congratulations, thepianist2008. A very mature, informed and moderate rant.
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thepianist2008 I really enjoyed your rant. I couldn't have said it better myself! totally a get-rich-quick scam!
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Originally posted by Mr_Kitty: thepianist2008 I really enjoyed your rant. I couldn't have said it better myself! totally a get-rich-quick scam! I'll edit Kitty's post: You had a good, self-satisfied rant You said it no better than yourself And you got stuff of your chest. Well, good on ya, pianist2008. But you do not seem to realize -or even care- that what works for you, might not work for others. Myself, I don't particularly care for Hanon -I prefer the Dohnanyi exercises as I have said here before- yet the Dohnanyi are emphatically not for beginnners, and perhaps the Hanon might meet their needs a bit better. Experienced students can make up their own mind about it, beginners need some guidance from an intelligent teacher... don't presume to dictate to them. To each his own. Your blind rant recalls the "beer situation" with a good mate of mine. He can't stand the brand I prefer, yet that's never enough for him. He cannot settle for "okay, Jason, you just prefer it". No, he has to constantly grump about it, and oh he would love to outlaw it. It would make him feel better. And my, how we deal with this scenario in politics too! As for Rustle of Spring, well, as you wish.
Jason
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I'm sorry, I didn't make myself clear. Of course, you can do it your own way, that's fine. You don't need to use Rustles of Spring, and, heck, (I DON'T mean this next part) why don't we throw out the Bach Inventions? The Point is that Hanon will never work. The reason you think you are getting better has two parts: warming up, and conditioning. You can achieve both by playing any piece, mindless exercises or not. The point is not to tell you to follow my practice plan. The point is to steer you away from a time-sapping brainless book of exercises that hold no intrinsic value whatsoever. The point is that a piece can be used for a warm-up as opposed to an exercise, and if you want to be in good condition all you need to do is practice often and long, again, the pieces do not matter.
Of course, the decision is yours. I tried to help, but in the end, (Here's the only selfish thing I claim to have said) it won't be my technique acquisition that's stalled while you're sitting in front of your Hanon book.
Piano Hero Encore Rocks the 1800s!
Current Assignments: Bach Prelude and Fugue in Bb Maj, D min, and C Maj from Bk I Mozart Sonata K.280 Brahms Rhapsody Op. 79 No. 2 Bartok Six Roumanian Folk Dances Prokofieff Visions Fugitives Op. 22
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We seem to have these Hanon-fests once a year or so. Most people are sorta in the middle, but there is usually a preponderance of "yeah, it helped me" types. Then we have a few Hanon haters who express themselves in rather extreme language and usually throw a pot shot at somebody for good measure. Yes 2008, that's you here. :p We never seem to have very many (if any) extreme lovers of Hanon. I wonder why? They ARE rather boring, aren't they! Nonetheless, BruceD has really gotten to the nub of the gist, hasn't he... with Brian's help in repetition, which is after all what Hanon is all about 2008, you do make a valid point. I'm sure many people who say they have benefited from Hanon might have benefited just as much from some other exercise, or from simply attacking their repertoire. This is the problem with all uncontrolled experiments. You don't control for the other alternatives not chosen. OK, this isn't science. I'll agree to that. People here are just relating personal experiences. Here's what one of our resident concert artists (Jeff Biegel) had to say: You're not supposed to work on them hours on end. Only 4 or 5 of the exercises are enough. If you like milk, don't go drinking three gallons of it. These things are good for keeping a well-greased finger dexterity and fluidity in the pianism--and security of muscular response for the other things you're doing in the repertoire. Doing too much of anything can damage tendons. This echoes my own experience using Hanon in my teens. For my own son, Hanon was a godsend. In his first year he really took to them and memorized the first 15 or so rather quickly. As an 8-9 year old he actually ENJOYED them. Yeah, you read that correctly. Actually, that's not surprising. They gave a quick sense of accomplishment, and he noticed quickly that it transfered over to his playing rather directly and immediately. He was soon playing stuff (end of his first year) that most kids get into in their third or fourth year of piano.
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C. A. Ehrenfechter (Reginald R. Gerig: "Famous Pianists and their Technique" - R. B. Luce), describing the sharply bent finger position, high finger lifting and vigorous repetition of the Stuttgart school in the late 1800's (where Hanon's exercises were popular), wrote:
"Several young students at Stuttgart lost the use of the (fourth) finger through overstraining it."
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I think it's obvious we're not talking about lifting the fingers to the sky, KeyboardKlutz. If you're lifting your fingers to the point that strain becomes evident in the hand then the technique is incorrect and needs to be done away with.
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That's true. But it's also true that young people think they are indestructible. Directions such as in Hanon's preface need careful consideration.
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"young people think they are indestructible", wha???
2008, what do you 'warm up', or use as a technique builder then??? (I agree by the way with you on the Hanon, thuogh not as profoundly maybe!!) I do Cramer, (as I've said many times, I find it great!) would you recommened that???
Patience's the best teacher, and time the best critic. - F.F.Chopin
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Hanon certainly helped me.
My teacher now has me using Czerny. All of these exercises are of value if approached properly, they are not intended to be mindless drills.
"The true character of a man can be determined by witnessing what he does when no one is watching".
anon
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hopinmad, I just wanted to comment on the warmup issue. I never warm up. I intentionally do not warm up, because I always want to be prepared to start cold. My warm up is to play the music.
I have a tendency to do technique work after doing the music. This reverse order works well for me.
I think this puts me in a better position to get rid the performance tension without a crutch and it was hard at first, I admit. I used to freeze in front of teachers. Having the confidence to do something without a warmup has built this confidence I think.
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Originally posted by thepianist2008: I tried to help, but in the end, (Here's the only selfish thing I claim to have said) it won't be my technique acquisition that's stalled while you're sitting in front of your Hanon book. Oh come off it mate, that's rubbish and you know that. Have you actually tested this out, wherein several pianists practised Hanon -and their technical advancement stalled- yet concurrently the absence of Hanon caused your technique to advance by leaps and bounds? More likely, you knew one individual that practised Hanon and had a bad expereience with it. Yet that would most likely be due to a number of other factors, i.e. bad practising habits, but none necessarily directly related to Hanon itself. Certainly not enough evidence there for a thesis. Myself, I will on occasion do #17 (one of the best) in all keys. When finished I always feel an extra strength in my hands... and my scales just sparkle! If I haven't practised in a few days, it is just the tonic I needed.
Jason
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Originally posted by keyboardklutz: C. A. Ehrenfechter (Reginald R. Gerig: "Famous Pianists and their Technique" - R. B. Luce), describing the sharply bent finger position, high finger lifting and vigorous repetition of the Stuttgart school in the late 1800's (where Hanon's exercises were popular), wrote:
"Several young students at Stuttgart lost the use of the (fourth) finger through overstraining it." Which says more about how the Hanon exercises were practised. Evidently memories of Schumann and his fourth finger had become too distant.
Jason
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I have never played Hanon, and do not see any inherent advantage to it as long as technique development occurs in some manner. Hanon exercises can be helpful. However, another approach is to observe your own mechanics while playing. Where are your flubs? What is the needed hand/finger action? Which muscles are used? Can you STOP when the flub happens and try to determine the type of action needed to play the passage/measure/fractile correctly? Once you identify this, you can work on EXACTLY the technique you need: is it a fast sixth stretch from 5 to 2 while holding a lower note with the thumb? Then practice cycling the 5-2 with 1 down. Invent other appropriate exercises to help you here. Hanon is a shotgun approach: hit a little bit of everything. Fine for small game. The technique I describe is more like a sniper using a high-power rifle with scope. Both work over time, but the "sniper" technique is tailored specifically for YOU, to eliminate the deficiencies in YOUR technique!!! Plus, with it Hanon can be replaced by Bach, which is MUCH more musical and less mechanical -- and (in the case of much of JS Bach's work) written specifically for technique acquisition. BTW Stevester - excellent tagline
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Originally posted by gerg: However, another approach is to observe your own mechanics while playing. Where are your flubs? What is the needed hand/finger action? Which muscles are used? Can you STOP when the flub happens and try to determine the type of action needed to play the passage/measure/fractile correctly?
True, but that would also exactly apply to Hanon -or better structured exercises like Brahms or Dohnanyi. As you say, STOP when the flub happens. And since these exercises cover most basic techinical challenges, then catching flubs on the spot will make it much easier to avoid (or correct) flubs in the actual repertoire. When one masters the discipline gained in playing 5 finger exercises perfectly, think of what that can do in Bach, Beethoven, Chopin, etc... But as I've said before, I'm no advocate of excessive practise of this stuff. As Dohnanyi says, the purpose of his exercises is to allow more time for repertoire. I have never advocated an hour of Hanon. Better things to do.
Jason
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The key difference is that, in pausing to identify and correct the problem while learning repertoire, you are in fact spending the time learning repertoire and acquiring the precise technique needed to play it.
However, since you mention that you do not advocate hours of Hanon practice - merely that you have a few exercises from Hanon (#17 for example) that you find useful - I don't think there is any essential bone to pick... I was talking chiefly about wasting large amounts of valuable practice time through abuse of Hanon, and a better use thereof by using a more targeted method.
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When one masters the discipline gained in playing 5 finger exercises perfectly, think of what that can do in Bach, Beethoven, Chopin, etc... The mind boggles Gerg, that's how I work - create exercises out of REAL difficulties.
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I count myself officially out of discussion. In answer to a previous question, I play cold. I also use actual pieces to acquire technique and now I'm trying to improve my scales.
And, while I hate Hanon, let's keep in mind that Schumann injured his fourth finger trying to cut the tendon that binds it to his third finger, not by playing Hanon (they're not physically bad, just mentally).
Piano Hero Encore Rocks the 1800s!
Current Assignments: Bach Prelude and Fugue in Bb Maj, D min, and C Maj from Bk I Mozart Sonata K.280 Brahms Rhapsody Op. 79 No. 2 Bartok Six Roumanian Folk Dances Prokofieff Visions Fugitives Op. 22
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2008, The latest thought about Schumann is that he had focal dystonia which caused his fourth finger to curl. He used a splint tied to his third finger to prevent it happening. It only made matters worse.
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I thought Schumann used a machine, or device, which he had built himself, which meant he could keep all fingers perfectly still while playing with other fingers??? Is that what you mean with the 'splint' keyboardklutz? So thathe could keep his third finger still while playing with his fourth???
Patience's the best teacher, and time the best critic. - F.F.Chopin
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I was at a conference in June on focal dystonia for musicians. One of the leading German doctors in the field explained Schumann's problem so I assumed he was correct. Basically he tied 2 fingers together to stop one of them involuntarily curling up (this is called focal dystonia). There is a big mythology out there all about his condition.
You may be thinking of Logier's Chiroplast. Kaulkbrenner used a slimmed down version which was a rail from the bottom to the top keys. You rested your wrist on it. I would highly recommend it myself for finger work. Liszt used one in his youth.
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Nah I'm not thinking of that, I have simply read the word 'device' or 'machine' whilst reading about Schumann's injury and have accidentally associated it with it.
Didn't Scriabin injure himself simlarly as well?? I have heard something about overpractice involved here. I am unsure though.
Patience's the best teacher, and time the best critic. - F.F.Chopin
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I think your right about Scriabin.
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Do you know anything of what happened to him?
Patience's the best teacher, and time the best critic. - F.F.Chopin
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Scriabin later studied at the Moscow Conservatory with Anton Arensky, Sergei Taneyev, and Vasily Ilyich Safonov. He became a noted pianist despite his small hands with a span of barely over an octave. Feeling challenged by Josef Lhevinne he seriously damaged his right hand while practicing Liszt's Don Juan Fantasy and Balakirev's Islamey from wikipedia.
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By over-stretching his hand too often?
Patience's the best teacher, and time the best critic. - F.F.Chopin
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Originally posted by hopinmad: Didn't Scriabin injure himself simlarly as well?? I have heard something about overpractice involved here. Yes, practising Liszt's Don Juan Fantasy. Hardly Hanon, that. An earlier post that quoted Wikipedia beat me, but actually I knew that anyway. One more moment wherein the signal to noise ratio on this Hanon stuff is getting out of proportion.
Jason
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hopin, I'm afraid I don't know much about Scriabin. I'm sure I've got info in books at home, but I'm in Nova Scotia on holiday just now. If you really want to know I can do research at Westminster Music Library when I get back.
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No you don't have to trouble yourself I'll look myself, no worries!
Patience's the best teacher, and time the best critic. - F.F.Chopin
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Hanon serves at least 1 excellent purpose. When I started with my first (and sadly last) good teacher, he railroaded me with technique.
For the first time, I was playing and thinking not of the notes but on every angle, position, height and level of tension in my fingers, hands, wrists, elbows, and shoulders. When you are trying to turn such a complex physical alignment (technique) into something that comes naturally to you, Hanon is excellent resource because it is simple repitition. With concentration and persistence, Hanon can reinforce, though not build, technique like nothing else.
If you're not concentrating on these things when you play Hanon, you'll get nothing out of it. If you are, you can really develop your fundamentals. At least that's the way it works for me.
Currently Studying: Gottschalk - Souvenir de Porto Rico Bolcom - Raggin' Rudi Friedman/Bach - Sheep May Safely Graze Beethoven - Les Adieux
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Hanon is NOT meant to be pretty and expressive! In my mind, it is simply about gaining strength and endurance, velocity and evenness. His many exercises apply themselves to the technique issues of the pianist which are all about physically being prepared for what we encounter in the music.
Use his exercises wisely, by the eaches, they do not take long to do, and it would be overkill to do more than about 5 - 10 minutes of exercise on any combination of them. Get in - and get out with Hanon. But, don't ignore him. He has provided solutions to our pianist problems. Pick and choose from his exercises.
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My thanks for the excellent advice offered on this thread.
I've been plugging away at this for about six weeks now. My fingers are feeling stronger. My fingers are moving faster. My fingers are moving together.
There's been some strong criticism, in particular with 'do it right or don't do it at all'. I've been cautious to pay careful attention to if it sounds rights, rather than to mindless practice in front of the television or while reading a book. :-) I don't want to develop bad habits, solidified by repetition.
In doing so, however, I've having some challenges ramping up the speed. Over the past six weeks, I've managed to ramp it up from (M.M.) 60 to about 80. Anything faster than that, it starts to break apart (get sloppy).
Looking for some additional guidance on how to build speed. Do you think its better to just stay at 80 and ramp it up when my fingers feel they're ready or do you force it, clicking it up a notch or two every ___ days? My instinct say don't practice it at a speed where it is starting to break up, but I'm not sure how to effectively deal with the speed hurdle.
Any thoughts?
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Originally posted by Akira: Looking for some additional guidance on how to build speed. Do you think its better to just stay at 80 and ramp it up when my fingers feel they're ready or do you force it, clicking it up a notch or two every ___ days? My instinct say don't practice it at a speed where it is starting to break up, but I'm not sure how to effectively deal with the speed hurdle.
Any thoughts? I'm of the opinion that you can't build speed just by working your way through the metronome. For me, I like to establish the tempo at which I'm still in control of everything...find the fastest tempo possible where you can still play it perfectly. That's your baseline. From there, increase the speed. As soon as you lose control of something stop and try to isolate exactly what's wrong. Ten things may be going wrong when you increase the tempo and you have to identify and address every single error. Listen very carefully and pay careful attention to the way your fingers, hands, wrists etc. feel at all times. Speed in piano playing is not its own individual skill to be achieved over time. It is only a physical skill on a very basic level. To play fast, you have to be in complete control of several fine motor functions. In that regard, I consider it a mental hurdle. That's how I'd explain it.
Currently Studying: Gottschalk - Souvenir de Porto Rico Bolcom - Raggin' Rudi Friedman/Bach - Sheep May Safely Graze Beethoven - Les Adieux
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Piano
by Gino2 - 04/17/24 02:34 PM
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Piano
by Gino2 - 04/17/24 02:23 PM
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