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I'm currently working this piece over for an upcoming competition and I would appreciate any helpful hints and comments.

Brahms Rhapsody

This is my first time on the forum and I'm in 8th grade and I'm in my 6th year of piano.

For this piece, I would just sit a little bit back from the piano and higher, so that my torso wouldn't block my arms during hand crossovers and also I would get a fuller sound.

Regards,

I would keep a relatively steady rhythm (like Gould, as opposed to Schnabel, for example, if my memory serves, maybe it doesn't, I don't know, steady rhythm anyway, and no tempo changes, unless marked, well probably they are marked if Schnabel obeyed them, well, ignore the markings then, like Gould, that's my humble advice).

There's a clip of Gould playing it over and over at the recording studio. Could someone post a link? I seem to have lost it.

Oh wait, now that I'm playing the Gould in my mind, he probably obeyed those tempo changes too, only not to such extreme as Schnabel... Anyway, Gould's the man with this piece. That's pretty much all I wanted to say.

Well done. If you were my student, I would ask what you want to communicate to your listeners, and further, are you hearing that as you play? What does your teacher say about listening to yourself? Brahms is a great romantic. Do you feel your playing sends warmth to the listener?

To hear a completely different approach, listen to: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AIQo4HzKzYk&mode=related&search=

Her opening tempo is a bit relaxed for my taste, but don't you feel her elongation of tempo when dynamics and thematics call for it is effective?

If you listen to any number of "artists" recordings, you will hear a lot of mush in the middle. How do you play this so the motifs shine through?

Just a few thoughts. A really fine job and best of luck on your audition.

John

In case anyone is in the dark here, Book_Worm is Piano*Son. He's on his own now. We've gotten very useful comments from this group in the past. Thanks in advance.

Cheers,

DF

The pianist I modeled this performance on was Artur Rubinstein. I liked his depth of dynamics and rubato. It conveyed the feeling of the piece very effectively.

BRAVO! You are on the right track. I especially liked how clear and clean your LH octave work came across - tough to do. I would encourage you to always think of the melodic line. Brahms was also a great lieder composer so melody is something he valued. It's difficult to judge dynamic contrast and shadings through an audio performance but I'll only say this: make a big difference in the fortes and pianos. Judges are always looking for that in a pianist. And remember - Brahms was a big man so don't be afraid to play out and "own" the keyboard.

Excellent for your age. Or quite a bit older, to be honest. I thought it was awesome.

It's REALLY hard to hear the complete quality from that video but you might check the LH notes in measures 14 and 15. I may be wrong but something sounds a bit strange there. Check especially the notes on the third beat. But maybe it's just me. Anyway, keep the forward motion going in the middle. Some of it is more fluid than some other parts.
It might interest you to listen to Martha Argerich's interpretation of that particular work. Great playing, good luck.

Kate

Hey BW, welcome!

You are doing a fine job. All your hours of practicing are paying off at a young age.

Give it all you've got, but also harness that power at times as well. The extremes.

Brahms is one composer that you can get lost in while playing, isn't he? Show us that. Drama.


I love your smile at the end. Proud. And you should be. ;-)

LL

BTW, BW,

Have you learned Chopin's Military Polonaise in A, Opus 40?

I think you might enjoy that too, if you haven't learned it yet.

LL

Piano*Son (oops Book Worm-wont do that again )

I thoroughly enjoyed your piece. Bravo, indeed

I love the confidence you exhibited in playing it and I did have a sense that you were interpreting the music. I also watched a few other versions on YouTube and while I did notice some qualitative differences, especially in tempo variation and shading, I also noted how much older they were and how much more time they had on the bench.

I imagine in 10 years you will have no trouble divining whatever you want out of this piece.


Side note- I did see the lid on the other piano was up during your performance, I wonder if that had any impact at all on sound?

Hello everyone. I'm new to this forum. I already like the tone exhibited here. I have been a piano teacher for almost 30 years and I am looking forward to greeting and meeting with you.

Welcome to the Pianist Corner at Piano World. This is a great inspiring place to be.

John

BW,

I really like you performance here. My only suggestion would be to make the piece yours, and not an imitation of someone else's. In other words learn the music the from your heart, hear it in you mind, and try not to be influenced by how others play it including the great ones - Rubenstein and Horowitz. This is one of the toughest things to do especially with the great wealth of recordings we have. It's very easy to pick up a recording, and use that as a model instead of reading and learning the music inside ones head. You'll understand as your music-soul grows.

I've worked on this off and on over the years, and it really is quite difficult. You have done a really wonderful job with it. Keep up the good work.

Piano*Dad - Your Grotrian really growels with the Brahms.

John

Congratulations. You have a lot to be proud of. You have a wonderful technique, and you have done great with a very difficult piece.
I agree with John Citron. Don't try to imitate someone else's interpretation, but make the compostion truly your own.
This does not preclude your listening to what the great pianists have done, but use their playing merely as a guide, and then follow your own instincts. Gaby Tu

Hi Book Worm--What hard work that must represent! But it's a really fun piece to play.

How did you decide on your overall tempo? I have heard this much slower than what you have done here, and I see from some of the videos of others playing this on YouTube that this seems to be a common argument. The recording I have is pretty close to seven minutes, the Mexican YouTube pianists plays it in 6:35, and Book Worm in 4:55. Do you recall what Rubinstein's time was?

Good luck at your competition. I love how you play the last section especially. You put a lot of feeling into that bass melody.

Nancy

The marking on my music calls for a quarter note to be played at 132.I thought that was a bit too fast. I believe that my average tempo is probably in the area of 105-120. Rubenstein played the piece in 6:45, but he didn't stick to the same tempo as much as I did. He also slowed down a lot more than I do in the 5th page mysterious section.

Also many pianists play the repeat as well. Does Rubinstein play the repeat or skips it? (as you did)

Regards,

Yes, all the professional recordings include the repeat. For competitions repeats are usually skipped, so his 4:55 time would compare to roughly 6:10 or so. Argerich plays it in about 6:20. Rubinstein is a bit slower. The big difference though seems to come in how long to hold certain fermatas and ritards. In places they go as fast or faster than BW does. Points taken though. I think he does need to vary the tempo more, especially slowing things down in places.

Ah, Rubinstein... I gotta check it out sometime...

Here're the Gould tapes I referred to earlier:

http://www.collectionscanada.ca/glenngould/028010-700-e.html

There's a lot of great work that has gone into this piece - and great results have come out of it.

As others have said, I think your interpretation needs greater tempo control. I am not suggesting that it be tied to the metronome throughout, because there does need to be some flexibility of tempo. However, I think the extremes in tempo that your interpretation currently has are detrimental to the overall effect. Notice how much of a difference there is in your opening tempo and the tempo starting at bar 14. Similarly, when you begin the main theme again at bar 85/86, the tempo picks up drastically from that of the preceding section (not just in comparison to the ritenuto). I prefer the tempo that you establish around measure 14; for my taste, the opening tempo is too fast to capture the majestic nature of this piece. The marking is Molto passionato, ma non troppo allegro My sense is that your allegro is a little troppo. I also notice that you tend to pick up the tempo when the volume increases, and slow down the tempo when the volume diminishes.

An interpretive suggestion : starting at measure 64/65, I like to think of the parallel octaves in both hands as a chorale theme, very reminiscent of the opening phrases of the Chorus from Brahms' own Ein deutsches Requiem : "Denn alles Fleisch, es ist wie Gras." If you don't know the chorus, you should listen to it; it might give you some new insights. In any case, this section - in my mind (you may feel differently, of course) - should be very subtly dark and mysteriously reverent. Your RH hand should be almost glued to the keys as you play the octave theme. I notice that you do not hold the octave with your right hand thumb at this point, and I think that's a bad oversight, whatever your interpretive feelings are for this section. You can't hold the octaves in the left hand, of course, because of the hand crossing at this point, but do observe the score and hold both notes of the octaves in the right hand for their full value. The alternating D-Eb triplets should be barely a murmur; the score does bring you down to ppp at this point. Again, remember not to speed up as you work up to the ff at measure 79.

I admire your left hand octave work. This piece can be a winner for you if you gain control over the tempo and can produce a more shading in your dynamics.

Thank you for sharing.

Regards,

Bruce,

I think he sees the point of slowing the tempo a bit in the opening, and in the reprise at the end. Trying to get him to stop speeding up as the volume goes up .....now there's a long term project.

Very good pickup on him releasing the RH octaves too soon. He saw that as soon as he went back and looked at the score.

Thanks,

David

P.S. he played it at a local recital today and although the tempo was probably still a bit too fast I thought he varied the dynamics quite a bit better. Too bad I didn't have a camera on him or I might have switched videos!

Since I am new here--where is the link to the student's performance? Before hearing anything, one thing I say to my students in big Brahms pieces is, 'Think orchestra'. Having played the concerti, the pianist is simply a one-man band as an orchestra, texturallyt, and physically must be like a conductor. The classicist Brahms will tell you to keep the pulse with a full Romantic sound, which is what Beethoven was aiming for in his pieces--aren't the Beethoven Sonatas simply orchestral reductions? There havebeen orchestrations done of the beethoven sonatas too. But for the Brahms Rhapsody, I would like to see the video if someone can assist me in getting to it.

Hi Jeff,

The video is on Youtube at the following address (which is hidden behind the coloured link in the first post of this thread)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d7-ReRzqrgM

Best regards,

-Michael B.

Jeff,

We'd love any thoughts you might have. Oh, I suppose I should mention that Book_Worm is my son!

He has already made some changes since that video. He's playing the first exposition a little slower (though not much, he likes a quick overall tempo) and he is emphasizing the melody line a little more (keeping the interior line a little in check). And he has ironed out a couple of small errors in memory.

Cheers,

David

I'll try to view the video this week--I look forward to seeing it.

Hi David and Book Worm
First, very nice work on this, BW! I am glad to hear that the melody line is now being emphasized a bit more-- there was a little too much "wall of sound" happening in that first video and the effect was a little muddy at times but I didn't know if that might just have been the recording. Both of those changes should help it be even better. Best of luck!

Sophia

It's very nice and he is very talented, as it has a sense of direction--he has a good sense of the breadth and the fluidity of the piece. The sighing slurs need to be stressed more--and there needs to be a general sense of orchestral space between the notes--it's a bit harried and not as spacious and a bit weightier as it can become. Also, there is perhaps too much sounding on the same level--he must decide which parts of the 'orchestra' need to be voiced properly--this will also slow it down a bit. The soft sections need to be darker and more mystical in color. Sometimes, I practice Brahms music with the lid of the piano totally closed to get that dark and rich sound. On the contrary, I find sitting a bit lower for this piece will give him a slower speed with more arm weight from the back. Sitting as high as he does makes you move with more horizontal mobility and play faster. Does he sing when he practices? That tends to make the piece go only as fast as the natural human voice. If he does that, he will notice a marked difference. Have him also listen and sing along to the Brahms symphonies--there are piano reductions of these, perhaps, to play along with as he listens to say, the Marin Alsop cds on Naxos. Please let me know if any of this works.

hi book worm. i love this piece, but i cant listen to your playing of it right now, as i have no working speakers on this computer at the moment, but, as im on the same grade as you, and play this piece, and am 16 (not sure how old you are but someone wrote good for your age and someone else has said in another thread 15 is the youngest on here, therefore im about the same age), ill suggest a few things. im not claiming they should be obeyed but theyre things im aware of it.
of course it makes a difference im yet to hear your version of it lol.

these are the points i concnetrate on:

1. a moderately fast tempo, i play it a tiny bit faster than the metronome mark (dont remember what it is just now), and speed up the bit with the LH octaves (measures 13/14 ish?) for drama, because above all, this piece needs to be dramatic and passionate. i genuienly think brahms wanted some variation in tempo.

2. make sure to have a tiny amount of time with abosolutely no sound, just before the octaves B's followed by the e minor and d major chord, and just before the a, a#, a g# bit.

3. ebb and flow of dynamics following the a, a#, a g# bit, but a crescendo up to the A major chord.

4. very march like gait with utmost strictness in the d minor bit, making sure to pedal just as the score says, to staccato where it says so, and to articulate every note clearly, especially the scattered chords and the d minor arpeggio on the way down, basically, strict observance of the score in this part.

5. many people believe you shuold keep the forte when entering the bit after the repeat, and some believe you should go down to piano, ive heard it played both ways. however, i play it as to keep the melody, and the bass chords forte, but the trilet accompinament quite quiet.

6. bring out the quavers in the bars where both hands play in different time.

7. keep the same march like gait in the bars where the f# g f# bit comes in. and bring out, but dont slow down the bit with the Eflat octave in the LH in the middle of the bar.

8. dont slow down the exposition (the bit with the crossovers again yes?) just make sure the triplets in the RH are quiet and represent some sort of, sleeping monster, but the danger is still there??? (please tell me you know what i mean when i say that!!! as in the initial thrill is still there sort of thing.

9. plenty of time before coming back to repeat the theme.

10. carfeul observance of the score in the last page, and make sure everything is articulated clearly, all the scattered chords and the RH triplets, especially in the Bflat c bflat bit.

these are the points i try to make sure i practise, as well as obvious things such as to bring out the melody, and to quieten down after the fermata in the g major bit in the theme.

but i havent heard your version, you may do all these things anyway effortlessly!!!

Jeff,

He does need to work a bit on the phrasing. My main concern first was the voicing. I agree that the "mysterious" middle section could use a little more mystery from proper voicing and perhaps a slightly slower and more varied tempo.

Sitting lower ...now that's an interesting suggestion. I've tried to get his arms horizontal with the keyboard and not adjust it for each piece.

Lastly, Anthony does not sing along. I understand that that is a time-honored technique, but it's not one his teacher has suggested. Nor is it one I have ever used myself.

Chopinmad,

Anthony is 13 now. He has been playing for five and a half years.

I'll let him comment on everybody's suggestions now!

Cheers,

David

For 13, well done. I think sitting lower will re-distribute everything. Don't forget, time and space in playing comes with age and living. My teacher used to tell me I would have these qualities as I aged--but I was impatient, so I forced myself to deliver the goods. Yet, when I listen to the old recordings, good as they were, nothing can compete with living life. My late tuner , Steve Borrell, once said, 'The piano is a reflection that reflects everything about the performer inside and out'. It's true! I am sure Anthony will always be a great player, and he is indeed quite mature in his way for his age, no doubt. He can take it with him forever, much like my boys play tennis and can play it forever.