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I was wondering what exersizes or anything I can do to improve the speed and control of my arms

aka. Octaves, repeated chords, stamina


Are there any etudes, exersizes, even outside of the piano that I can do to help with my efficiency?

I have good finger technique, I can play fast runs, but in La Campanella and Mephisto Waltz, I always slow down when there are rapid octaves or repeated chords.

In the fastest run in la campanella, right before the long chromatic scale with both hands, my right hand can play as fast as I want (and with control), BUT my left hand slows it down because I can use my arm for the thirds quickly enough.

I have tried playing that part leggiero, but the chords don't come together.

Anyway, any practice ideas? octave scales? Hanon?


Also, how many of you use the fourth finger for octaves whenever you play black keys?

Yes.

"Bounce the hand up and down, comfortably, repeating the octave, with emphasis on relaxation -- can you keep bouncing it without fatigue or stress, especially as you speed it up? If you get tired, find ways of repeating the octave without developing fatigue by changing your hand position, motion, etc. If you still get tired, stop and change hands; practice the RH Ab4-Ab5 octave that you will need later on. Once you can bounce the octave, 4 times per beat (i.e., include the correct rhythm) without fatigue, try speeding it up. At sufficient speed, you will develop fatigue again, so either slow down or try to find different ways of playing that reduces fatigue. Change hands as soon as you feel tired. Do not play loud; one of the tricks for reducing fatigue is to practice softly. You can add dynamics later, once you have the technique. It is extremely important to practice softly so that you can concentrate on technique and relaxation. In the beginning, as you exert yourself to play faster, fatigue will develop. But when you find the right motions, hand positions, etc., you will actually feel the fatigue draining out of the hand and you should be able to rest and even rejuvenate the hand while playing rapidly. You have learned to relax.

Now add the parallel set exercises. First the 5,1 parallel set. Start with the repeated octaves, then gradually replace each octave with a parallel set. For example, if you are playing groups of 4 octaves (4/4 time), start by replacing the 4th octave with a parallel set. Soon, you should be practicing all parallel sets. If the parallel sets become uneven or the hand starts to tire, go back to the octave to relax. Or change hands. Work the parallel sets until you can play the 2 notes in the parallel set almost "infinitely fast" and reproducibly, and eventually, with good control and complete relaxation. At the fastest parallel set speeds, you should have difficulty distinguishing between parallel sets and octaves. Then slow down the parallel sets so that you can play at all speeds with control. Note that in this case, the 5 note should be slightly louder than the 1. However, you should practice it both ways: with the beat on the 5 and with it on the 1, so that you develop a balanced, controllable technique. Now repeat the whole procedure with the 1,5 parallel set. Again, although this parallel set is not required to play this tremolo (only the previous one is necessary), it is useful for developing a balanced control. Once both the 5,1 and 1,5 are satisfactory, move on to the 5,1,5 or 5,1,5,1 (played like a short octave trill). If you can do the 5,1,5,1 right away, there is no need to do the 5,1,5. The objective here is both speed and endurance, so you should practice speeds that are much faster than the final tremolo speed, at least for these short tremolos. Then work on the 1,5,1,5.

Once the parallel sets are satisfactory, start playing groups of 2 tremolos, perhaps with a momentary pause between groups. Then increase to groups of 3 and then 4 tremolos. The best way to speed up the tremolos is to alternate between tremolos and octaves. Speed up the octave and try to switch to the tremolo at this faster speed. Now all you have to do is alternate hands and build up endurance. Again, building endurance is not so much building muscle, as knowing how to relax and how to use the correct motions. De-couple the hands from your body; do not tie the hand-arm-body system into one stiff knot, but let the hands and fingers operate independently from the body. You should breathe freely, unaffected by what the fingers are doing." - written by Chuan C Chang, Fundamentals of Piano Practice 2nd Edition

Etudes won't help you nearly as much as good practice techniques will. The following is a quick (and probably jumbled) explanation of what I do.

I practice passages in small groups of notes, taking a decent pause between each group so that I can gather my bearings for the next group. I work to play each group perfectly at tempo, and I give extra attention to the groups that need it. I then double the size of the note groups and repeat the same process. I work hands seperate until I can play the passage fluently and at tempo with each hand and then I repeat the same process hands together. Of course I may vary this process depending on what I actually need. Sometimes I skip a step or two and then go back and hit them later when I realize that a passage just isn't up to snuff.

I use rhythms with almost everything. They help my fingers learn to get to each note accurately and fluidly without any "hickups." They also help me decide what kind of technique to use. I base that decision on whcish one gives me the best results and which one feels best, these usually leading to the same decision. They also allow my fingers/hands/arms, etc. to learn how the passage should feel by playing it in small groups using every possible note combination.

When learning octaves and double notes I often learn the upper and lower lines seperately using the actually fingering. I give the top RH notes and bottom LH notes extra attention.

When it comes to scales, in addition to rhythms I also spend time practicing them in groups of notes that end on finger 1. For example, in a very fast G scale I will play 1231 pause 2341 pause 231 pause etc. until I can play each group at tempo with the proper technique. I use a long pause at first and gradually shorten it as I can. I then combine the groups two different ways, e.g. 1231 pause 12341231 pause 12341231 and then 12312341 pause 12312341 etc. Note, you need to be careful to give each note the same length, otherwise it is very easy to get used to playing the four note group faster than the three note group.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by musicsdarkangel:
Also, how many of you use the fourth finger for octaves whenever you play black keys?
[QB]

I always use my fourth finger on the black keys in octaves.

Hope that helps (and hope it wasn't too confusing!)

Ryan

Wow guys, thanks

this is EXCELLENT advice.

Sorry, but I don't quite understand what RH ab4-ab5 means.. with 4th and 5th fingers?

And also, what's a 5, 1 parallel set? Having both hands play 5 and 1? And what does it mean by starting with the repeated octaves, and gradually replacing each one with a parallel set? Does that mean to do everything in unison and then eventually have both hands playing the octave notes together in tremelos?

I wouldn't worry about it.

Ryan has some good basic advice above. Also, how the upper arm, forearm, and wrist are used in combination are important. The height of your wrist is also important. You can change the height of your wrist during long repeated octave passages, and the result is you get less fatigue because you use different muscles.

Maybe a little bit much, but I HIGHLY recommend Chopin's Ab Polonaise because towards the middle, there are two straight pages of octaves. It builds up a lot of stamina in your left forearm after playing it for a while. Plus, I absolutely love playing this piece. You don't have to play all of it if you wouldn't like to, but I do suggest the middle section.

Here's a link to it:
http://www.sheetmusicarchive.net/compositions_b/poln53.pdf
(Octaves start on the 6th page)

I would try some of the Rachmaninoff preludes. Obviously there is the 23/5, but I would also look at 32/3, that has a lot of chord and octave tech.

How would you practice guys the final of the 2nd piano concerto of Rachmaninoff? You have repeated big chords in triplets, one on the right hand, two on the left, going up on the keyboard, FFF? Seems to be hard to pull it clean and with a big sound without getting stiff or tired!. And you came from that downfall of 16th notes chords alternated on both hands.

I would practice exactly as I outlined above. I would also make sure I could play the chords one after another all the way up the keyboard (ignoring the music), hands seperate and hands together. This along with note group (esp. rhythms) and hands seperate practice will help your hands learn to move from chord to chord swiftly, deftly, accurately, etc. Also, it will help you learn to play the triplets absolutely evenly, which is critical to this passage sounding polished.

Don't forget to relax in between the note groups, and don't increase the group size until you can play it without tightening up.

Be sure you are using your fingers to help and not jut plopping them down with your arm and hand. You don't need a ton of finger action here, just enough to help depress the notes and to give you some spring to help you get from chord to chord and also to help with the repeated chords.

As far as the sound, try to really bring out the tops of both hands as this will help it sound bigger, clearer, and cleaner and you won't have to work so hard (at least you won't after you learn how to do it ). When the tops ring out the lower notes don't have to be quite so perfect.

Shape the passage both in dynamics and in time. Don't play it all FFF. Maybe play the first beat FFF, drop way back, and then cresc. back to FFF. Also, maybe start a bit behind the pulse and gradually/subtly increase the tempo. Subtle! Rushing here or anywhere else is deadly!

Good luck!

Ryan

"one on the right hand, two on the left" Sorry, it's 1 LH and 2 RH...

huh... Well I realize is not that hard that part... But the part just before... Where you have this typical Russian-pianist cascade of chords in 16th notes alternated in both hands. Seems to be a "percussive-like" passage, cause there's no time to prepare each beat in order to get the full sound... does anyone knows what im talking about?

bump.

This is great stuff. I will think of doing that polonaise...but as of now, I'm doing op 44.


I have Cziffra playing that polonaise, it's amazing.

I said this in another thread, play the Bach 1st 2 part invention, but as octaves. It's great because as well as being a good octave study, it's also great music.

wow, haha. Never thought of that.

That would be funny if someone did Bach transcriptions in octaves.


Sorabji??

In the mid 19th century, Alexander Dreyschock used to stun crowds and play the left hand of Chopin's Revolutionary Etude in otaves.

It's a pretty easy song, but the Nutcracker March by Thikalsky (sp.) has a left hand part with quick octaves, plus it is a fun song to learn.

Sounds insane...

Did anybody mention that Chopin Etude in b minor 25/10? Besides a good exercise, it's a great number...!