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#418855 - 01/28/06 06:40 PM Can you trace your teacher-pupil genealogical tree?
ecm Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/08/05
Posts: 1276
Loc: Republic of Macedonia
I can. :p

I know it sounds impossible but it is possible:

- L.V.Beethoven[/b] (1770-1827) 57 g.


- C. Czerny[/b] (1791-1857) 66 g.


- F. Liszt[/b] (1811-1886) 75 g.


- A. Siloti[/b] (1863-1945) 82 g.


- K. Igumnov[/b] (1873-1948) 75 g.


BORIS ROMANOV [/b] (I visit his seminars and he is my teacher's husband.


- B. Davidovich[/b] (1928) 78 g.


- V. Postnikova[/b] (1944) 62 g.

my teacher LJUDMILA ROMANOVA[/b] studied with Postnikova (I THINK!) \:D

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#418856 - 01/28/06 06:42 PM Re: Can you trace your teacher-pupil genealogical tree?
ecm Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/08/05
Posts: 1276
Loc: Republic of Macedonia
 Quote:
Originally posted by ecm:
I can. :p

I know it sounds impossible but it is possible:

- L.V.Beethoven[/b] (1770-1827) 57 g.


- C. Czerny[/b] (1791-1857) 66 g.


- F. Liszt[/b] (1811-1886) 75 g.


- A. Siloti[/b] (1863-1945) 82 g.


- K. Igumnov[/b] (1873-1948) 75 g.


BORIS ROMANOV [/b] (I visit his seminars and he is my teacher's husband.)


- B. Davidovich[/b] (1928) 78 g.


- V. Postnikova[/b] (1944) 62 g.

my teacher LJUDMILA ROMANOVA[/b] studied with Postnikova (I THINK!) \:D [/b]
so I am 8 generations from beethoven and 6 from liszt.

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#418857 - 01/28/06 06:48 PM Re: Can you trace your teacher-pupil genealogical tree?
-Frycek Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/06/05
Posts: 5921
Loc: SC Mountains
My one good teacher was a Frenchwoman who was at the Paris conservatory at the right time to have studied with Corot. Cortot had a tenuous connection with a pupil of Chopin. That's the best I can do.
_________________________
Slow down and do it right.

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#418858 - 01/28/06 07:09 PM Re: Can you trace your teacher-pupil genealogical tree?
pianojerome Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 9868
Ludwig van Beethoven

Karl Czerny

Vasily Safonov

Josef Lhevinne

Rosina Lhevinne

Martin Canin

Arthur Greene

Dmitri Vorobiev

"PianoJerome"
_________________________
Sam

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#418859 - 01/28/06 07:12 PM Re: Can you trace your teacher-pupil genealogical tree?
BruceD Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 17837
Loc: Victoria, BC
But these links don't mean anything, do they?

Given the cliché that a chain is only as strong as its weakest link, if any student in the chain did not strongly espouse the views of his teacher or was just not a particularly good student, what significant link is there between the current student and the "original" master?

Regards,
_________________________
BruceD
- - - - -
Estonia 190

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#418860 - 01/28/06 07:18 PM Re: Can you trace your teacher-pupil genealogical tree?
pianojerome Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 9868
 Quote:
Originally posted by BruceD:
But these links don't mean anything, do they?[/b]
No, but they're nice ego-boosters. \:D
_________________________
Sam

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#418861 - 01/28/06 07:24 PM Re: Can you trace your teacher-pupil genealogical tree?
BruceD Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 17837
Loc: Victoria, BC
Sam :

I like - and appreciate - your point of view. I'll also be the first to admit that there is absolutely nothing wrong with having one's ego boosted, once in a while!

Cheers!
_________________________
BruceD
- - - - -
Estonia 190

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#418862 - 01/28/06 07:35 PM Re: Can you trace your teacher-pupil genealogical tree?
Happy Birthday Ted2 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/04/02
Posts: 790
Loc: Auckland, New Zealand
When he was very young, my teacher had a few friendly composition lessons from Elgar, who was impressed with the boy's ability. It is a nice, true story but has no particular musical implication. I used to get tired of him going on about all his famous musical friends; it must have boosted his ego, I guess; it had little effect on me.
_________________________
"Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law" - Aleister Crowley

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#418863 - 01/28/06 08:36 PM Re: Can you trace your teacher-pupil genealogical tree?
Opus_Maximus Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/27/04
Posts: 1480
Beethoven, Czerny, Liszt, Krause, Arrau, Salas, Opus Maximus +D

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#418864 - 01/28/06 08:36 PM Re: Can you trace your teacher-pupil genealogical tree?
LWpianistin Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/08/05
Posts: 500
Loc: VA/MD/England...long story...
i am still working on it, but so far i have:

Hans Schmidt
Ferruccio Busoni
Guido Agosti
Clifton Matthews
Lisa Kinzer
me
_________________________
That's right...I have the same birthday as Mozart. If only it meant something and I could have one thousandth of his genius...in my dreams, i suppose.

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#418865 - 01/28/06 11:11 PM Re: Can you trace your teacher-pupil genealogical tree?
CCM Stephen Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/21/04
Posts: 461
Loc: Savannah GA
Beethoven
Czerny
Leszetycki
Schnabel
Claude Frank
Frank Weinstock, Bruce Murray, and Craig Sheppard
Stephen Brown, the great \:\)

Ludwig von Beethoven
Karl Czerny
Teodor Leszetycki
Artur Schnabel
Leon Fliescher
Julian Martin
Stephen Brown, the great \:\)

Beethoven
Czerny
Liszt
Conrad Ansorge
Eduard Erdmann
Paul Baumgartner
Arie Vardi
Stephen Brown, the great \:\)

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#418866 - 01/29/06 06:29 AM Re: Can you trace your teacher-pupil genealogical tree?
debrucey Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/18/06
Posts: 2600
Loc: Manchester, UK
People like Beethoven, Liszt, Czerny and all them taught lots of people in their lifetime, so the chances of your teacher tree dating back to them is quite high if you have a popular teacher, I guess. Ill have to ask mine and get back to you.

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#418867 - 01/29/06 07:22 AM Re: Can you trace your teacher-pupil genealogical tree?
Varcon Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/15/04
Posts: 1931
Loc: Mount Vernon, Georgia 30445
Yes--quite often it's possible since the very famous ones have their 'lineage' in their bios. My teacher in Honolulu studied with five students of Liszt as well as Joseph Hofmann, Mrs. Ferguson, etc. He compiled a 'Teacher Pedigree' that goes back to Binchois (19 generations) with Mozart, Haydn, Beethoven, etc., as mentioned previously and is cross-indexed by number and alphabet. Since I studied with him (he had studied in New York for a long time before retiring to Honolulu where he maintained a private studio) he said I was entitled to it as well. He also gave me the right to copy it as it is copyrighted. And Mme. de Horvath's lineage is traceable as well since Gabrilowitsch, Friedman, and Safonoff were all three quite famous. So, in both cases the two most famous teachers of all time are prominent in the 'pedigree.' Liszt and Leschetizky--both students of Czerny--probably produced from their classes/studios the most prominent pianists of the early 1900's and quite a few at that!

I'm proud of it--as it does show a link. Whether one can show the ability of the teachers and absolute use of their knowledge and tradition is another story!

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#418868 - 01/29/06 08:20 AM Re: Can you trace your teacher-pupil genealogical tree?
jon-nyc Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/09/05
Posts: 2022
Loc: the left bank -- of the east r...
Yes it doesn't mean that much - especially since Liszt had so many 'students' that came basically to pay (play) homage to the master.


But here's mine \:D

Beethoven
Czerny
Liszt
Krause
Arrau
Drury
Jimenez
jon-nyc
_________________________
If you don't talk to your children about equal temperment, who will?

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#418869 - 01/29/06 12:03 PM Re: Can you trace your teacher-pupil genealogical tree?
Kreisler Offline



Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 13763
Loc: Iowa City, IA
I studied with Arthur Greene, so same list as Pianojerome.

Plus I can go back to Matthay through Frank Mannheimer and John Perry/Constance Carroll.
_________________________
"If we continually try to force a child to do what he is afraid to do, he will become more timid, and will use his brains and energy, not to explore the unknown, but to find ways to avoid the pressures we put on him." (John Holt)

www.pianoped.com
www.youtube.com/user/UIPianoPed

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#418870 - 01/29/06 12:26 PM Re: Can you trace your teacher-pupil genealogical tree?
Gyro Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/24/05
Posts: 4533
I think everybody can do this, since the
pool of teachers in Europe in the early
days was originally quite small and so
all piano teachers are offshoots of this original
pool. Anyone in the US who had a teacher who went
to Julliard or studied with someone who did,
or studied with someone who studied with
someone who did, etc., which includes just
about everyone in the US, should be able
to immediately trace back to Beethoven,
at least.

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#418871 - 01/29/06 12:32 PM Re: Can you trace your teacher-pupil genealogical tree?
PianoBeast10489 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/17/04
Posts: 830
Loc: Virginia Beach,VA
Ludwig von Beethoven
Karl Czerny
Teodor Leszetycki
Artur Schnabel
Leon Fliescher
Nelita True
Suzanne W. Guy

then me!

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#418872 - 01/29/06 01:51 PM Re: Can you trace your teacher-pupil genealogical tree?
John Citron Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/15/05
Posts: 3925
Loc: Haverhill, Massachusetts
This is my first teacher and current mentor:

Ludwig von Beethoven
Karl Czerny
Chopin
Georges Mathias
Isadore Phillpe
Virginia Klötzle Prescott
me

Virginia also studied with Godovski, Beveridge Webster, Leon Fleicher and others. Her mother, who was her first teacher, studied with Carl Reineke in Leipzig.

One of my other teachers studied with Veronica Joachim, but I don't know the lineage here, and another teacher of mine studied with Anthony di bonaventura, which I don't know either.

John
_________________________
Nothing.

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#418873 - 01/29/06 03:03 PM Re: Can you trace your teacher-pupil genealogical tree?
matthewpiano Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/23/05
Posts: 303
Loc: North West United Kingdom
I have a few lines to explore from the various teacher I've had, but I'm stuck at this stage with tracing them further back. Here are the starting points - as you can see I am now trying to get back beyond Marjorie Clementi (who I think may have been taught by Gordon Green!) and Gordon Green, a RAM and RNCM teacher of note, who seems to crop up in most of my pedagogic ancestries...

1.
Maurice Ravel
Vlado Perlemuter
Robert Bell
Alice Rosser
matthewpiano

2.
(Gordon Green?)
Marjorie Clementi
matthewpiano

3.
Gordon Green
Katrina George
matthewpiano

4.
Gordon GReen
Christopher Elton
Andrew West
matthewpiano
_________________________
Classical and jazz pianist, singer, songwriter, and avid listener and concert-goer. SCHIMMEL and BLUTHNER fan and avidly AGAINST the dumbing down of quality music.

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#418874 - 01/29/06 03:12 PM Re: Can you trace your teacher-pupil genealogical tree?
Arjen Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/24/05
Posts: 173
Loc: Groningen, Netherlands
If I'm not mistaken (and I know some of you might not believe me, too bad for you) my teacher taught Beethoven a few tricks some years ago. SHould have a picture of it somewhere but seems I have misplaced it.

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#418875 - 01/29/06 03:25 PM Re: Can you trace your teacher-pupil genealogical tree?
Palindrome Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/22/01
Posts: 3914
Loc: Chicago, IL USA
- L.V.Beethoven (1770-1827) 57 g.


- C. Czerny (1791-1857) 66 g.


- F. Liszt (1811-1886) 75 g.


- B. Stavenhagen (1862-1914) (also studied with Kullak)


- Berthe Poncy Jacobson


- Frederic Rothchild (1914-2002) 88 y.


On rare occasions, you run into someone who really knows what he's doing. As a piano teacher, Fred was definitely in that category. He was quite an accomplished pianist as well (every year he'd play Islamey for a friend on her birthday). And for me, Fred's the real heavyweight on the above list - why, Beethoven weighed only 57 grams! (I guess "g" is the Macedonian abbreviation for "year;" correct ecm?)
_________________________
There is no end of learning. -Robert Schumann Rules for Young Musicians

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#418876 - 01/29/06 11:16 PM Re: Can you trace your teacher-pupil genealogical tree?
Jeffrey Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/18/04
Posts: 2948
Loc: New York
My new teacher studied with Kempff and Tureck, but I don't know how to trace it back farther than that. Had my first lesson with her today. \:\) \:\)

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#418877 - 01/29/06 11:33 PM Re: Can you trace your teacher-pupil genealogical tree?
CCM Stephen Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/21/04
Posts: 461
Loc: Savannah GA
 Quote:
Originally posted by John Citron:
This is my first teacher and current mentor:

Ludwig von Beethoven
Karl Czerny
Chopin
Georges Mathias
Isadore Phillpe
Virginia Klötzle Prescott
me
[/b]
Are you sure Chopin studied with Czerny?

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#418878 - 01/30/06 12:51 AM Re: Can you trace your teacher-pupil genealogical tree?
Numerian Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 1075
I have the same question. I thought Chopin studied under Zwicky. My teacher studied under Heinrich Neuhaus and at one time we traced back the lineage to Chopin, where it stopped at Zwicky.

For all of you descendants of Beethoven, why are you stopping at him? Granted, Beethoven did not have good things to say about his teachers, but doesn't Haydn count for anything?

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#418879 - 01/30/06 01:09 AM Re: Can you trace your teacher-pupil genealogical tree?
ChrisKeys Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/03
Posts: 1274
Loc: Dallas, TX
Liszt & Mikuli (student of Chopin)
Moriz Rosenthal
Robert Goldsand
Veryl Zech
yours truly!

Chris

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#418880 - 01/30/06 05:55 AM Re: Can you trace your teacher-pupil genealogical tree?
-Frycek Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/06/05
Posts: 5921
Loc: SC Mountains
Chopin was definitely not taught by Czerny. He was first taught by his mother who was said to have been an excellent pianist and who sometimes gave lessons to supplement the family income.
When it became apparent he was something special his father hired his friend Wojciech Zywny, who was primarily a violinist, to teach his son. Zywny was already an old man then but lived into his 80's. He essentially guided Chopin while he taught himself. These lessons continued from the time Chopin was six until he was twelve when Zywny decided Chopin knew more than he did. Zywny remained a close friend and a fixture in the Chopin household from then on. Zwyny also taught Chopin to play the violin though Chopin seems to have dropped it as soon as possible. From about 16-18 Chopin had lessons in composition and counterpoint at the Warsaw Conservatory with Josef Elsner. That's it.
_________________________
Slow down and do it right.

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#418881 - 01/30/06 05:01 PM Re: Can you trace your teacher-pupil genealogical tree?
Numerian Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 1075
Zwyny or Zwicky? I've got some program notes to a concert that say Zwicky but Wikipedia agrees with you about a Mr. Wojciech Adalbert Żywny. I also remember reading that Chopin is probably the greatest self-taught composer and pianist - moreso than Mozart. Given what little training he had, he single-handedly invented an entirely new piano technique. That would make him one of the most notable geniuses in music. I know Bernstein used to say all composers followed one of two paths: that set by Beethoven, and the other set by Chopin.

With all that, Chopin left little actual legacy of gifted pianists who benefited from his teaching. If you can draw your lineage to Mikuli that is about your only chance to connect to Chopin himself.

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#418882 - 01/30/06 05:04 PM Re: Can you trace your teacher-pupil genealogical tree?
Numerian Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 1075
By the way, there is a good thread down below here on Chopin the Teacher.

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#418883 - 01/30/06 07:27 PM Re: Can you trace your teacher-pupil genealogical tree?
Palindrome Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/22/01
Posts: 3914
Loc: Chicago, IL USA
 Quote:
Originally posted by CCM Stephen:
 Quote:
Originally posted by John Citron:
This is my first teacher and current mentor:

Ludwig von Beethoven
Karl Czerny
Chopin
Georges Mathias
Isadore Phillpe
Virginia Klötzle Prescott
me
[/b]
Are you sure Chopin studied with Czerny? [/b]
Chopin didn't study with Czerny, he visited him once, and wrote that he found the man "warmer than his music."
_________________________
There is no end of learning. -Robert Schumann Rules for Young Musicians

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#418884 - 01/30/06 07:28 PM Re: Can you trace your teacher-pupil genealogical tree?
Varcon Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/15/04
Posts: 1931
Loc: Mount Vernon, Georgia 30445
Just for those who might like to know I'll list the teachers of Beethoven as listed on the Teacher Pedigree my teacher compiled after scrupulous research.

Gilles Van Den Eeden
Chris G. Neefe
Albrechtsberger
Franz Ries
E. A. Forster
Schuppanzigh
A. Salieri
F. J. Haydn

I can only give you what is on the chart. You can check the accuracy for yourselves.

For Chopin he gives:

Adalbert Zywny
Joseph Elsner
Friedrich Kalkbrenner

Have fun! :>

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