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#420256 - 03/22/05 05:04 PM Changing fingers on repeated notes
Rockitman Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/30/04
Posts: 284
Loc: Central Calif
I was wondering how you all go about playing repeated notes in a piece. Most times, the fingering calls for you to change your finger with each strike of the same note, ie: 3,2,1,etc. I understand that this is said to give each note more character and a better sound overall,(maybe even allow more speed if the repeated notes are to played fast?) but i find that I rarely do this. Of course I am not under the instruction of a teacher and I could just see this person demanding that I play the fingering correctly, but I have watched a few concert pianists over the last couple of years and I try to get a seat where I can view their hands, and I noticed that for the most part, they all just strike a repeated note with the same finger.
So what's your take on this method?

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#420257 - 03/22/05 05:28 PM Re: Changing fingers on repeated notes
pianojerome Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 9849
If the notes are repeated slowly, I might play with the same finger.

The idea of repeating the same note with different fingers is two-fold: one, to reduce tension and increase speed and accuracy, and two, for touch. Playing with the same finger may create a choppy sound, where as changing fingers may produce a more legato tone.

If the repeated notes are duples (or groups of two), I use 2-1-2-1-... or 1-2-1-2-...

If the repeated notes are triplets (or groups of three), I use 3-2-1-3-2-1-... or 1-2-3-1-2-3-...

If the repeated notes are quadruples (or groups of four), I use 4-3-2-1-4-3-2-1-... or 1-2-3-4-1-2-3-4-... or 2-1-2-1-... or 1-2-1-2-...

If the repeated notes are groups of five, I use 3-2-1-3-1- 3-2-1-3-1-... or 1-2-3-1-3-1-2-3-1-3-...

If the repeated notes are groups of six, I use 3-2-1-3-2-1-... or 1-2-3-1-2-3-...

Anymore than that, the notes can be broken into smaller groups.

Hanon wrote some excellent exercises for switching fingers on repeated notes...
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Sam

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#420258 - 03/22/05 05:47 PM Re: Changing fingers on repeated notes
signa Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/06/04
Posts: 8452
Loc: Ohio, USA
Bernstein said in "With your own two hands": "Comfort for the sake of musical expression and control of sound should be our primary concern - and not rigid rules (see Illustration IV)."

here Ill.-IV is a few bars from "Fur Elise" with repeated LH base notes and all fingered with the same finger(s) without changing. (btw, i do use different fingers for those bars though).

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#420259 - 03/22/05 05:52 PM Re: Changing fingers on repeated notes
AdagioM Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/25/04
Posts: 723
Loc: Oregon
I found I got a better sound with 3 2 1 3 2 1 on that part of Fur Elise. But it depends on what you're comfortable with. Your mileage may vary.
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#420260 - 03/22/05 05:59 PM Re: Changing fingers on repeated notes
Varcon Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/15/04
Posts: 1896
Loc: Mount Vernon, Georgia 30445
You might like to read the comments of Rudolph Ganz in THE LITERATURE OF THE PIANO, Ernest Hutcheson and Ganz, 3rd edition, pgs. 422 et. al.

He discourses on repeated fingering--when to use and or not to use.

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#420261 - 03/22/05 08:36 PM Re: Changing fingers on repeated notes
TheloniousPunk Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/04/03
Posts: 815
Loc: FL
I came across three Eb's in a row in Chopin's 21st prelude, and my sheet music indicated switching fingers. My teacher told me to pay no attention to it. I did it anyway, just for the exercise.

He said they try to get you to switch fingers so the sound of the note will change and be less monotonous, but it wasn't exactly difficult to change the sound while using one finger.

I kind of suspect that if you're a good technician, it makes no difference which finger you use.
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#420262 - 03/23/05 03:57 AM Re: Changing fingers on repeated notes
jpw101 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/17/05
Posts: 631
Loc: UK
I don't think it depends on the speed so much, it's more to do with the musical idea and the best way of realising it. e.g. the 'drum rolls' in the opening of Ravel's Scarbo are far easier to pull off with complete evenness and rapidity by not changing fingers.

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#420263 - 03/23/05 06:37 AM Re: Changing fingers on repeated notes
Phlebas Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/02/03
Posts: 4654
Loc: New York City
Lots of people find it's technically easier for them to alternate fingers in fast repeated note passages. That's because you're transferring what would be up and down motion - whether it's wrist, forearm, etc. - to a more lateral motion.

I could be wrong, but I don't know anyone who plays the repeated noted on Alborado... with the same finger. However, I've hear of people with really small hands playing the repeated notes in La Campanella with the thumb. Don't think I could do that.

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#420264 - 03/23/05 08:00 AM Re: Changing fingers on repeated notes
Mikester Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/17/04
Posts: 1254
Loc: Minneesooota
Another reason why people alternate fingers is because, say, your thumb muscles will get sore after so many repetitions (and thus, slow down). Sharing the load with the third finger, index finger, and thumb allows each finger to stay fresh and keep that lactic acid away!

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#420265 - 03/23/05 08:57 AM Re: Changing fingers on repeated notes
Nina Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/13/01
Posts: 6467
Loc: Phoenix, AZ
I thought it was partly historical due to the action in old pianos... if you didn't come completely off the key, it wouldn't be back and ready for a re-strike and you wouldn't get a sound (kind of like what still happens in many uprights). Ergo, it's no longer "required," but still may be preferred for the reasons stated above.

Am I off-base on this?

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#420266 - 03/23/05 12:45 PM Re: Changing fingers on repeated notes
La_Campanella Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/01/03
Posts: 113
Loc: Norway
On the part of La Campanella with 4 repeated notes (page 4) I know a pianist using 2-1-2-1 instead of the more common 4-3-2-1, and he is playing the whole piece very clearly (and very fast!) including the "repeated note - place".
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La_Campanella

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#420267 - 03/23/05 04:26 PM Re: Changing fingers on repeated notes
Rodolpho Portamento Fritzweil Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/15/04
Posts: 340
 Quote:
Originally posted by Nina:
I thought it was partly historical due to the action in old pianos... if you didn't come completely off the key, it wouldn't be back and ready for a re-strike and you wouldn't get a sound (kind of like what still happens in many uprights). Ergo, it's no longer "required," but still may be preferred for the reasons stated above.

Am I off-base on this? [/b]
Actually this is the correct answer. The double-escapement (double echapament) action invented by Erhard for the grand piano solved the problem of the fast repetition without lifting the finger from the key. Very few upright pianos have a "similar" action. As some teachers pointed, from the begining of the 20-th century, the changing of fingers for a repeated note was not "advised" as a "must do" . One can notice differences between editions of Czerny. Those editions fingered by Buonamici (as well as his Bach editions) would not have a note repeated with the same fingers. Other editions of Czerny (published by Koneman editions - editor unnamed) repeted notes are fingered with the same finger.
So... as long as many people will still play on uprights, the changing of fingers will be needed. On grand pianos... do what you feel (if you played the Buonamici... you'll never hit the same key with the same finger all your life !)

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#420268 - 03/24/05 01:53 PM Re: Changing fingers on repeated notes
Max W Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/05/02
Posts: 2846
Loc: RHUL
There is a huge difference in tone quality when you use multiple fingers...however I wouldn't change fingers if it is just a small duration and if the hand doesnt need to move (like the ones in the percussive part in Minstrels).

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