http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZnUW_cBMrFU

Neat idea, isn't it? For those who can't open the video: Frederic Chiu gave his students 2 days to learn a Scarlatti Sonata away from the piano; at the end of the second day, they were allowed to play it, for the first time, completely from memory. This forced them to study the score very carefully, in order to understand the music and its technical difficulties before attempting to play the notes on the piano.

I'd like to try this with the 1st movement of Beethoven's Sonata in A Major, Op. 2 No. 2 -- anybody want to join me?

The situation will be a little bit different, for a couple reasons: first, I've heard the piece already. But I've never played it, except for the first couple lines very briefly this afternoon, and I'm not very familiar with the piece.

Also, I think a bit more than 2 days would be more beneficial for me -- maybe a week instead. It need not be perfect, nor up to tempo at the first playing. The idea is not to have a perfect performance without any physical practice, because physical practice is important, but rather to simply be able to play it --- and to be able to play it not through muscle memory or thoughtless reading, but through active effort to play the notes that I know I want to play.

So, anybody want to join me? During this following week, we can discuss aspects of the score / learning process -- how are you approaching this challenge? What are you thinking about when you look at the score? How are you dealing with technical challenges, before taking it to the piano? At the end of the week, recordings and/or descriptions of the first playing would certainly be very interesting.

If you've already played this piece, and would like to try a different one, I'm all ears to how you are approaching your own selection! If you haven't already played this piece, it would be neat to have a group, large or small, working on the same challenge together.

Sam - I can't join you because I studied Op. 2, Nr. 2 last year, but I wanted to tell you that I think Frederic's exercise is fantastic - he's such a great teacher - and I think it's GREAT that you've decided to embark on this project.

It has always bothered me that you hear and read pianists extolling the value of studying the score away from the piano so many times and in so many places, but they never explain what exactly that means. I would love to see that "checklist" that Frederic uses with his class. In my opinion it is irresponsible for a teacher to say something like that and not explain in very concrete terms what "studying the score" means. They should provide their students with the tools to study their scores, and to guide them through the process. Kudos to Frederic for providing this kind of guidance.

If I were taking part in this challenge I would be doing a very detailed analysis of form, harmony, and melody. I actually do this regularly with all the pieces I learn to play as a first step in the learning process (quite detailed in form and harmony, less than I should with melodic development - will have to work on that), but always at the piano, and I have never gone as far as trying to memorize an entire piece before ever playing it. I do memorize my pieces immediately with the aid of my analysis. I find in-depth analysis to be invaluable in both speeding up the learning period enormously and making it far easier to memorize.

Good luck, Sam - I'm sure you will gain enormously by this process. Let us know how it goes.

i'll join you sam,

sounds like fun

Jerry - thanks for the encouragement! ZP, I'm glad you're joining in for the challenge!

I'm going to try to keep a journal throughout this week, to document my thoughts and progress. Day 1 is up now, check back for updates:

here

its a long piece, sure we can do it in a week?

Zac

My hats off to anyone who can do this unless they've got a photographic memory. I know I couldn't do it even if I spent two months. If I remember correctly the students in Chiu's class had a great deal of trouble with the much shorter Scarlatti Sonata.

I wonder if it's anything like playing chess blindfolded (which I can do to a certain extent). I also wonder whether the ability to hear a score without playing it plays a big role.

Absolutely LOVE your first journal entry, Sam - GREAT job!!!!! I see you come at this equipped with an excellent background in analysis. I think this is going to be a breeze for you! I'm bookmarking your journal - I'm going to learn a lot myself from your analysis.

I take composition lessons with a brilliant composer whose pet project is to find the melodic connection between movements of multi-movement pieces (including Bach's Preludes and Fugues). After you finish your analysis, you might find it interesting (and fun!) to look for such connections in this sonata.

Keep it coming, Sam!

Where are the journal entries?

See Sam's second post above

You're right -- it's 8 pages! It would be great if we could get through the whole movement, but even if we fell short and only got the exposition, or the exposition and development, I think it would still be a great achievement.

I have a question for those of you who are doing this. Do you "hear" the music in your head as you look at the score? If so, is it in the correct key?

I have an advantage in that regard because I have heard the piece before -- although I can't run through the piece in my mind with my eyes closed, I do recognize some passages when I see them on the paper. But I don't recognize all of it.

Certain patterns are relatively easy for me to "hear" -- scales, alberti bass, the left hand figure in the e minor section of the exposition. I tried "hearing" that last section in my mind, and I think I get something of a resemblance, by following the sequence, but I'm sure it's not exactly right. I often imagine something that is a vague resemblance to music, but it's more guided by things like rhythm and direction.

Whether it's in the right key or not, I honestly couldn't tell you.

I think Chiu purposely chose an obscure Scarlatti Sonata so no one would have heard it before.

You're probably right.

I'd guess he probably also asked them each for a list of the sonatas they'd already played, so he could be sure that he could pick one that would be new to all of them.

very scary, but ok.

I think that some who might be interested in embarking on a project such as this would be happier starting out with a shorter work, with the idea of progressing to a larger, more complex work such as a Beethonven Sonata at a later time.

Regards,

i was reading over the score today and could "hear" the music (i have never heard this piece before) but it cirtantly wouldn't be in the right key, its more of an interpretation that my brain makes of the music

that isn't a bad idea, mabye we could also do a scarlatti sonata

Zac

I participated, several years ago, in Chiu's "Deeper Piano Studies" program, and remember very well doing that with a Scarlatti sonata. It was an interesting process, part of which included notating the piece from memory to the best of our abilities (and part of which included making pasta – from scratch, natch – together with the other participants!). I'd participate with you on the Beethoven, but I'm already pretty familiar with the piece. Have fun, though!

While you study the sonata will you be thinking about fingering? Or let fingering take care of itself once you take the sonata to the keyboard?

Well, I'm thinking now that I might not be able to do the whole 1st movement! Maybe just the exposition or the exposition and development will be plenty!

I don't have photographic memory, but today I was able to write from memory the first 30 measures, including phrasing, articulation, and dynamics (not by reproducing some visual picture, but by trying to remember what is "happening" in the music). Well, I'll write about it in my next journal entry. What is tricky in this first section are the 3-part textures -- right now, I can write them easily one voice at a time, but when I am playing, of course, I will have to play all three at the same time! But I'm sure over the course of the week, it will become much more solidly stored in my memory.

As far as fingering goes, that's a hard part for me! I suppose my goal will just be to be able to play it, and then after next week I'll spend a lot more time on fingering... but I'll have to see how my progress goes this week in terms of memorizing the score. I *should* spend some time on pianistic issues since, after all, the goal is to play it on the piano!

That must have been an incredible experience! Do you feel that the Scarlatti exercise has helped you with other music? Do you remember music better/longer?

I'd like to be able to say "a resounding YES!!" But – hopefully without sounding like too much of an a-hole – it didn't really appreciably add to my understanding of how to go about learning music. Some of the exercises were new to me (like trying to write the piece down from memory), but I don't feel like it made *that* much of an impression or change. It may have been useful subconsciously; who knows? Anyway, I haven't done it with any other pieces since then. It was a fun week, though, and I did learn a few things about how my own process works. That, in itself, was definitely valuable.

Well, gee, thanks for spoiling my fun.

I honestly don't know what I will gain from this, but there is only one way to find out -- and it will certainly be a challenge!

By the way, it's great to see you back here again. Haven't seen you around in quite a while.

Hello!
I'm very happy to see a thread like this one on this topic! Great initiative, and I wish you all good luck.

I'm happy to chime in and give some pointers. It will take me a little while to read all the posts and formulate some thoughts, but my initial reaction is - try a short piece, even a VERY short piece! And take your time learning it before you sit down and play it. The longer you wait, the stronger the results (hint - the real results come AFTER you play it the first time, no matter how bad it comes out!)

More later! Keep the thread going!
Frederic

Hi Frederic,

I'm so glad you saw this thread -- I was hoping you would! Thanks for posting here, and for sharing your videos on youtube. Since I've already spent some time on the Beethoven, I think I would like to continue at least on the exposition, before moving on to the rest of the movement and/or something else (that is shorter). I look forward to reading any pointers that you might offer!

Yes, exactly; the best way to find out is to do the experiment! I especially liked how Frederic likened playing the piece on the piano for the first time (after spending a few days *away* from the piano, getting to know the score) to meeting a person you'd been hearing about or reading about in the flesh for the first time.

And thank you - it's good to be back again!

And Frederic - boy, am I glad I had a good time with you that week instead of not, then coming here to write a scathing screed and then seeing your post a few lines down! That would definitely have been a *gulp!* kind of a moment!! Anyway, glad to know you're still doing it and people are still benefiting. (BTW, I really dig your Lt. Kije transcription! Is the score available?)

Just a few observations pj,

Beethoven’s Opus 2/2 was written in 1793 (aged 23)
shortly after arriving in Vienna ... when taking lessons with Haydn ... the sonata is dedicated to Papa H ... the Allegro vivace stays boringly in the key of A major with only 3 accidentals to edge the first MT 20 measures.

The fledgling composer over-reaches himself in the opening two measures ( IMHO a novice attempt to provide some zing) ... with a crude combination of note durations (8th, 4th spiked with racy 32nds ) which he would later dump ...
(a case of getting Haydn and Mozart out of his system).

Written in A Major, the note patterns in m1 and m3 are identical in profile (a move from the dominant to the tonic)... m5-m8 descend via degrees 2.7.5.4 profile ... 8th notes to m9-10
are a scalar ladder (1.2.3.4.5.6.7.8) off the keynote datum .

Good luck with the memory experiment ... hope the above structural analysis might help with making the bits stick in the old noggin.

Pianistcomposer - might it be that as a composer you have already developed a skill at recognizing form, harmony, and melodic development to a point that it is natural for you without having to "force yourself" to sit down and dedicate time and concentration to analyze the pieces you learn to play?

I know that my experience, as a pianist who is only learning to compose and improvise in recent years (after more than four decades of playing), is that it was all too easy to play well into the advanced level without ever having any understanding whatsoever (or extremely limited understanding) of these elements in pieces I actually learned to play. That made learning and memorizing pieces a ridiculously long, drawn out and difficult process (what probably passes for normal for many similarly trained pianists). Personally, I find doing thorough analysis on pieces I learn to play to be indespensible - invaluable for the practical reasons of speeding up the learning and memorization enormously (and making memorization much more solid), and having a sense that I really understand what makes the music I'm playing tick. It's hard to put a value on that last point, or to explain it's value, because a pianist doesn't need to understand the music he plays, but I put a huge value on it.

A few comments after perusing the thread and your journal (great work!):
1) the idea is not to learn it completely and perfectly without practicing it. Some people can do this, but they have some special gifts (photographic memory, perfect pitch, etc). For us "normal" folk, it is a chance to push the mental aspect of learning to our limits, and then to see how far that is, which gives us insight into how much of a mental pianist we are - or perhaps we are more physical or emotional. All three are crucial to develop, but you can't start developing until you know where you are to begin with. More on that as we go.
2) Writing on manuscript paper is VERY important. And not necessarily from memory, even though that is a good exercise. But it is only one exercise of many. Copying rote from the score is also very instructive. One spends much more time with each individual note by copying than by just looking with the eye. And details pop out when you have to copy every single detail.
3) There are ways to approach analysis that help you break down the task. My primary approach is to layer - go through your selected work or passage through different filters. Filter out, for example, everything except dynamics. What details are left? Go through the entire passage looking ONLY for dynamics, list them, group them, analyze the results, make some general and pointed observations about that particular layer. Then move on to another layer, say tempo. There are dozens of layers. Each of them will add to your general knowledge and deconstruction. Then putting them together will produce a much fuller picture.

I suggest that one of you look at this exposition of the first movement with a dynamic filter on, and post your results here.

Sam, great journal by the way. Also a great exercise. Part of the work I do with groups relies on the fact that everyone has to articulate what they are thinking, with the help of the other participants. We always think we know and understand more than we actually do. The requirement to articulate into words makes us aware of where we are truly clear about an idea and where we just have an impression that we "get it", but actually haven't really thought it through. Thinking is clarified by speaking, and speaking is clarified by writing. Writing is then further clarified by publishing!!

This doesn't mean that thinking that cannot be articulated is worthless. On the contrary! Mendelssohn expressed an idea that music is not describable with words not because it is to imprecise, but because it is too precise! The act of attempting to articulate only makes it clear what you are dealing with.

Likewise, this whole learning exercise is not to suggest that all music should be learnable totally away from the piano. The act of trying to do this will make clear to you what part of the work is mental, and in consequence, what part of the work that is left will be either physical or emotional. There are ways to split those two apart, which we will leave for another thread!

Good luck!
Frederic

Sam - thanks so much for this thread. I am, as you know, no where near a level of piano playing for this particular piece, but the whole idea here is great (and thank you, Frederic, too). Sam always has creative ideas and views (see the composer/pianist thread stickied at the top). I'll be following this with great interest.

I think I'll try it on something my own size - Baby Beluga from my Raffi book might be in my possibilities!

Cathy