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#421240 - 08/24/06 03:41 PM Re: Jewish Pianists
Frank_W Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/10/06
Posts: 1047
Loc: United States
Right on, Eternal. My feelings and thoughts EXACTLY!
_________________________
Compassion, Love, Strength, Peace, Dignity, Balance, Order

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#421241 - 08/24/06 04:59 PM Re: Jewish Pianists
eromlignod Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/04/04
Posts: 379
Loc: Kansas City
 Quote:
Originally posted by Eternal:
Some cultures are all about nurturing, and building, while others are all about death and destruction. How else do you explain the fact, that the Jews, who only constitute 0.2% of the world's population, make up 25% of the Nobel Prize winners (169). At the same time, 1 bilion members of another culture have a pathetic 7, the number which includes a murderer as well...

I'm not a Jew by the way (not that it matters), but I truly admire their people, and culture. I live in the U.S., and the Jewish neighborhoods, are known to be the best and safest neighborhoods to live in.

Nothing angers me more, than listening to anti-Semitic "useful idiots" in the U.S. and Europe, who are attacking Jews or Israel. The state of Israel is the last bastion of Democracy and Western Civilization in the Midle East, and it is surrounded by pure evil. I consider it my duty to support those brave people in their David vs. Goliath struggle. [/b]
I have yet to read a single even remotely anti-Semitic post in this thread yet. I'm not sure what your point is. There has been nothing but praise for Jews here. The only mild debate is whether their accomplishments in the entertainment fields are due to culture or genetics, which your examples don't really answer.

You can name specific areas (intellectual or otherwise) where a given race or culture excels. You can likewise name other areas where that same culture does not, in comparison to others (Jews in most sports comes to mind). Whether each of these individual fields of endeavor has merit, is worthwhile, or makes money is another unrelated debate.

I have always thought that measuring intelligence as IQ is like evaluating a pianist by the strength of his grip on a "love tester" machine. Why is it so easy for us to accept the fact that people in different parts of the world have evolved differently from the neck down, in stature, features, adaptability to the elements, susceptibility/immunity to certain diseases, etc., but it is blasphemy to even insinuate that any evolution whatsoever has occurred from the neck up?

Don
Kansas City

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#421242 - 08/24/06 05:46 PM Re: Jewish Pianists
BDB Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21917
Loc: Oakland
 Quote:
Why is it so easy for us to accept the fact that people in different parts of the world have evolved differently from the neck down, in stature, features, adaptability to the elements, susceptibility/immunity to certain diseases, etc., but it is blasphemy to even insinuate that any evolution whatsoever has occurred from the neck up?
Insert your favorite blond or baldness joke here!
_________________________
Semipro Tech

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#421243 - 08/24/06 05:48 PM Re: Jewish Pianists
JerryG Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/25/06
Posts: 170
Loc: Long Island, NY
Well, I thought I might as well add my voice here. I think we have a disproportionate number of great pianists is not genetics, although it is known that musical ability is inherited, but due to culture and motivation from parents.

As some have said here, we were excluded from many professions and therefore we tended to gravitate towards those that would accept us.

Additionally I believe that there had been, and maybe still is, a desire for parents to push their children toward an occupation where they can work for themselves. Hence the disproportionate number of Jewish doctors, lawyers and accountants.

I am also pleased to see that no one here has hinted at any degree of antisemitism. It is good to see that people can offer intelligent comments, particularly from those here that a not Jewish. Maybe there is hope for this world.
_________________________
IJGpiano

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#421244 - 08/24/06 09:53 PM Re: Jewish Pianists
Eternal Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/06
Posts: 1285
Loc: Posts: 80,372
 Quote:
I have yet to read a single even remotely anti-Semitic post in this thread yet.
And I certainly wouldn't expect any, on a Piano forum. They say simple minds have simple amusements - so I'm sure the opposite must be true as well. I was talking in general, as from frequenting some other (not piano related) forums, I see the kind of posts that make me wonder, how could one get so brainwashed, as not to be able to recognize Good from Evil.

 Quote:
There has been nothing but praise for Jews here. The only mild debate is whether their accomplishments in the entertainment fields are due to culture or genetics, which your examples don't really answer.
This particular question often boils down to what was first - chicken or the egg.
1) It could be just culture.
2) It could be just genetics.
3) It could be a combination of both.

I don't think it's genetics - by the virtue of a simple thought experiment. If you took a baby from a different culture, and raised it in a Jewish family, instilling Jewish values, which emphasize education (as has been the case for thousands of years), then I've no doubt the lad would grow up to be a fine cultured man, who'd be more likely to become a doctor/lawyer/musician, than burn down cars or embassies. If you raise your kids teaching them nothing but hate, then you end up raising an army of suicide bent fanatics. A quote by a former Israel prime minister sums this up perfectly: "We will have peace with Arabs, when they love their kids more than they hate us...".

Besides, I do remember reading somewhere about the fact that Jewish and Arab DNA is pretty much identical, which should pretty much dispell that myth. Of course it says nothing about differencess accross other races, when it comes to standardized test scores for example.

I do think it has a lot to do with culture. Education is highly important in Jewish tradition, and if you look at Asian families in the US you'll see the exact same thing. The smartest kids in the class are usually of Asian descent. Black kids on the other hand, are usually at the lower end of the spectrum, unless of course we're talking sports.

I guess, there could also be a slight genetic component to it as well. If a particular culture favors educated men, then those men will be more attractive to a potential mate, and have a higher probability of reproducing. Social Darwinism at work.

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#421245 - 08/25/06 01:15 AM Re: Jewish Pianists
canaday Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/30/05
Posts: 328
Loc: Petaluma, CA
 Quote:
Why is it so easy for us to accept the fact that people in different parts of the world have evolved differently from the neck down, in stature, features, adaptability to the elements, susceptibility/immunity to certain diseases, etc., but it is blasphemy to even insinuate that any evolution whatsoever has occurred from the neck up?

[/QB]
What is the benefit of identifying racial/ethnic/cultural characteristics?

I can't think of one, honestly.

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#421246 - 08/25/06 08:59 AM Re: Jewish Pianists
pianojerome Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 9868
 Quote:
Originally posted by canaday:
 Quote:
Why is it so easy for us to accept the fact that people in different parts of the world have evolved differently from the neck down, in stature, features, adaptability to the elements, susceptibility/immunity to certain diseases, etc., but it is blasphemy to even insinuate that any evolution whatsoever has occurred from the neck up?

[/b]
What is the benefit of identifying racial/ethnic/cultural characteristics?

I can't think of one, honestly. [/QB]
What is the benefit of ignoring them?
_________________________
Sam

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#421247 - 08/25/06 09:14 AM Re: Jewish Pianists
Eternal Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/06
Posts: 1285
Loc: Posts: 80,372
 Quote:

What is the benefit of identifying racial/ethnic/cultural characteristics?
I can't think of one, honestly.
Here's a couple off the top of my head. Some races are more susceptible to certain diseases (I think that's the case with Blacks and diabetes, though I'm not sure). I'm sure if you were Black, you would want your doc to be aware of those risks. Or for example American Indians who due to their genetics can't handle alcohol well.

Pretending we're all the same is the first step to moral relativism, which is becoming more and more popular these days.

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#421248 - 08/25/06 09:56 AM Re: Jewish Pianists
canaday Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/30/05
Posts: 328
Loc: Petaluma, CA
 Quote:
Originally posted by pianojerome:
 Quote:
Originally posted by canaday:
 Quote:
Why is it so easy for us to accept the fact that people in different parts of the world have evolved differently from the neck down, in stature, features, adaptability to the elements, susceptibility/immunity to certain diseases, etc., but it is blasphemy to even insinuate that any evolution whatsoever has occurred from the neck up?

[/b]
What is the benefit of identifying racial/ethnic/cultural characteristics?

I can't think of one, honestly. [/b]
What is the benefit of ignoring them? [/QB]
Rugged individualism, yes?

These are stereotypes, some positive, some benign, but never relevant to what an individual can choose to do with his life.

On the flip side, these understandings can be very persuasive and destructive. This is how people rationalize bad acts against entire groups of people -- pick your favorite religious/ethnic conflict, and there you have it.

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#421249 - 08/25/06 10:10 AM Re: Jewish Pianists
pianojerome Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 9868
 Quote:
Originally posted by canaday:
 Quote:
Originally posted by pianojerome:
 Quote:
Originally posted by canaday:
quote:
Why is it so easy for us to accept the fact that people in different parts of the world have evolved differently from the neck down, in stature, features, adaptability to the elements, susceptibility/immunity to certain diseases, etc., but it is blasphemy to even insinuate that any evolution whatsoever has occurred from the neck up?

[/b]
What is the benefit of identifying racial/ethnic/cultural characteristics?

I can't think of one, honestly. [/b]
What is the benefit of ignoring them? [/b]
Rugged individualism, yes?

These are stereotypes, some positive, some benign, but never relevant to what an individual can choose to do with his life.

On the flip side, these understandings can be very persuasive and destructive. This is how people rationalize bad acts against entire groups of people -- pick your favorite religious/ethnic conflict, and there you have it. [/QB]

Is it just a stereotype that African-Americans tend to have darker skin than European-Americans?

Is it just a stereotype that Europeans tend to have larger noses than Asians?

Is it just a stereotype that people in the American South tend to say Y'all a lot and that Canadians tend to say Eh? a lot?


Sure, you can say it's a stereotype because you are generalizing about a whole group of people, but that doesn't mean that the stereotype is not generally true, just because it is a stereotype.
_________________________
Sam

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#421250 - 08/25/06 10:17 AM Re: Jewish Pianists
PoStTeNeBrAsLuX Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/31/05
Posts: 2618
Loc: Geneva, Switzerland
Sam,

All[/b] generalisations are wrong[1].

-Michael B.
[1] including this one \:\)
_________________________
There are two rules to success in life: Rule #1. Don't tell people everything you know.

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#421251 - 08/25/06 10:43 AM Re: Jewish Pianists
Eternal Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/06
Posts: 1285
Loc: Posts: 80,372
 Quote:
These are stereotypes, some positive, some benign, but never relevant to what an individual can choose to do with his life.
Genetic predispositions are not stereotypes, they're facts...

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#421252 - 08/25/06 11:29 AM Re: Jewish Pianists
canaday Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/30/05
Posts: 328
Loc: Petaluma, CA
Peoples' skins, peoples' noses, genetics...

Sure, there are sometimes facts and truths here, but what is the benefit of using them in your thinking? Does my sense of my own God-given Finnish-American uprightness cause me to judge other people unfairly? Sometimes it does.

As pleasant as it is to reflect on these things, there's a price.

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#421253 - 08/25/06 11:44 AM Re: Jewish Pianists
signa Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/06/04
Posts: 8483
Loc: Ohio, USA
the only relevence is how well a pianist plays, and we don't care if he/she is jewish or polish or bandalidash or something... culture background just means something for kids growing up, but it doesn't gurantee anything after that.

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#421254 - 08/25/06 04:16 PM Re: Jewish Pianists
Hank Drake Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/31/01
Posts: 1664
Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
I can't help recalling what Itzhak Perlman said, when asked about the high number of Jewish violinists.

"The fingers, they're circumcised, you see. Which makes for good dexterity, especially in the pinky."
_________________________
Hank Drake

The composers want performers be imaginative, in the direction of their thinking--not just robots, who execute orders.
George Szell

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#421255 - 08/25/06 04:28 PM Re: Jewish Pianists
Frank_W Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/10/06
Posts: 1047
Loc: United States
My god.. What WAS he playing the violin with???
_________________________
Compassion, Love, Strength, Peace, Dignity, Balance, Order

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#421256 - 08/25/06 05:03 PM Re: Jewish Pianists
193866 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/02/06
Posts: 777
Loc: Manassas,Va
Frank_W ... Horowitz actually made this statement? tThe remark is crude and hopefully beneath old Horowitz...Maybe he needed more schooling in maturity, logic and wisdom...Sandy B.
_________________________
Sandra M. Boletchek 08/02/06

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#421257 - 08/25/06 05:08 PM Re: Jewish Pianists
Silent Thoughts Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/30/05
Posts: 314
This Horowitz quite seems to be taken out of context frequently... perhaps the pianist was being facetious, yes? \:\)

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#421258 - 08/25/06 08:17 PM Re: Jewish Pianists
Hank Drake Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/31/01
Posts: 1664
Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
 Quote:
Originally posted by Silent Omen:
This Horowitz quite seems to be taken out of context frequently... perhaps the pianist was being facetious, yes? \:\) [/b]
He was being facetious. Some people are too literal minded to detect a joke when they hear it.
_________________________
Hank Drake

The composers want performers be imaginative, in the direction of their thinking--not just robots, who execute orders.
George Szell

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#421259 - 08/25/06 08:21 PM Re: Jewish Pianists
I'm Liszt's coffee pal. Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/11/06
Posts: 497
Loc: Liszt's backyard.
Seriously.
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#421260 - 08/25/06 09:39 PM Re: Jewish Pianists
Frank_W Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/10/06
Posts: 1047
Loc: United States
 Quote:
Originally posted by 193866:
Frank_W ... Horowitz actually made this statement? tThe remark is crude and hopefully beneath old Horowitz...Maybe he needed more schooling in maturity, logic and wisdom...Sandy B. [/b]
Well, like other posters have said, I think it is a contextual thing, and I'm sure he was being very tongue-in-cheek. (Gosh, I sure hope he was, anyway!) LOL
_________________________
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#421261 - 08/25/06 11:24 PM Re: Jewish Pianists
I'm Liszt's coffee pal. Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/11/06
Posts: 497
Loc: Liszt's backyard.
I think Horowitz had a very dry sense of humor and was aware of who he was saying it to. And I'm positive he was being tongue-in-cheek.
_________________________
So, you're a cannibal.

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#421262 - 08/26/06 12:36 AM Re: Jewish Pianists
piqué Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/15/01
Posts: 5484
 Quote:
Originally posted by Hank Drake:
I can't help recalling what Itzhak Perlman said, when asked about the high number of Jewish violinists.

"The fingers, they're circumcised, you see. Which makes for good dexterity, especially in the pinky." [/b]
:rofl: omg, hank, i'm dyin' that is hilarious.

as for the horowitz comment, he was two out of the three! ;\)
_________________________
piqué

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#421263 - 08/26/06 12:46 AM Re: Jewish Pianists
pianojerome Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 9868
 Quote:
Originally posted by piqu�:
 Quote:
Originally posted by Hank Drake:
I can't help recalling what Itzhak Perlman said, when asked about the high number of Jewish violinists.

"The fingers, they're circumcised, you see. Which makes for good dexterity, especially in the pinky." [/b]
:rofl: omg, hank, i'm dyin' that is hilarious.

as for the horowitz comment, he was two out of the three! ;\) [/b]
Some might say he was three out of three!

(must be some sort of prize for that)
_________________________
Sam

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#421264 - 08/26/06 07:55 PM Re: Jewish Pianists
C.V. Alkan Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/05
Posts: 827
Loc: Denver, Colorado
 Quote:
Originally posted by eromlignod:
But Jews had already clearly demonstrated their flair for the performing arts long before the holocaust. Look at Hollywood. Prior to WWII the majority of studios were owned by Jews and the industry was largely staffed by Jewish actors, musicians and dancers (and still is).[/b]
I won't give a history lesson here, but the Holocaust wasn't the first time jews were persecuted. And it wasn't the first time they showed incredible resiliance in surviving and rebuilding. The Jewish studio owners came after the Spanish Inquisition, after the Maccabees, and after the Pharaoh of Egypt \:\) . But you make a good point about genetics.
_________________________
- Zack -

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#421265 - 08/26/06 08:20 PM Re: Jewish Pianists
Hank Drake Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/31/01
Posts: 1664
Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
 Quote:
Originally posted by piqu麊
 Quote:
Originally posted by Hank Drake:
I can't help recalling what Itzhak Perlman said, when asked about the high number of Jewish violinists.

"The fingers, they're circumcised, you see. Which makes for good dexterity, especially in the pinky." [/b]
:rofl: omg, hank, i'm dyin' that is hilarious.

as for the horowitz comment, he was two out of the three! ;\) [/b]
Horowitz was raised in the Jewish tradition, but was in fact not religious. That's one of the reasons religion was not an issue in his marriage to Wanda Toscanini--who was a non-observant Catholic.
_________________________
Hank Drake

The composers want performers be imaginative, in the direction of their thinking--not just robots, who execute orders.
George Szell

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#421266 - 08/26/06 08:28 PM Re: Jewish Pianists
193866 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/02/06
Posts: 777
Loc: Manassas,Va
Now my ideal Pearlman made such a crude statement too...More than I want to hear...I love humor...but... to me as a mature women this just crude...Maybe men's humor...signing off for now...Sandy B.
_________________________
Sandra M. Boletchek 08/02/06

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#421267 - 08/26/06 08:46 PM Re: Jewish Pianists
193866 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/02/06
Posts: 777
Loc: Manassas,Va
Hello ...An adoring fan here of Itzak Perlman...The spelling I hope is correct...He deserves correct spelling... We just saw Mr.Perlman at Wolf Trap this summer...the place was so packed...He was mostly conducting... We saw him at least three other times live at Wolf Trap through the years... ...only playing violin... Has anyone else heard him perform live? If not, he is probably close to retirement, at appx. 60 years old, and, if you can... please do not miss the opportunity...Sandy B
_________________________
Sandra M. Boletchek 08/02/06

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#421268 - 08/26/06 11:32 PM Re: Jewish Pianists
piqué Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/15/01
Posts: 5484
 Quote:
Originally posted by Hank Drake:
[QUOTE]Horowitz was raised in the Jewish tradition, but was in fact not religious. That's one of the reasons religion was not an issue in his marriage to Wanda Toscanini--who was a non-observant Catholic. [/b]
he was an ethnic jew. religion has nothing to do with it.
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piqué

now in paperback:


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#421269 - 08/26/06 11:33 PM Re: Jewish Pianists
piqué Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/15/01
Posts: 5484
 Quote:
Originally posted by 193866:
Now my ideal Pearlman made such a crude statement too...More than I want to hear...I love humor...but... to me as a mature women this just crude...Maybe men's humor...signing off for now...Sandy B. [/b]
i'm not a man, and i think what he said is hilarious.
_________________________
piqué

now in paperback:


Grand Obsession: A Piano Odyssey

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