Where have I been all my life...other than listening to mostly Chopin, Rach and Beethoven's Symphonies?

I am ashamed to admit that I knew little of the sonata's he wrote, other than the Moonlight, of course.

I am watching (for the 10th time) Immortal Beloved. What is that piece (I imagine it is a sonata) that is playing right at the beginning where the young women are all swooning?

Thanks.

It's the piano sonata no. 8 in C minor...

Thank you.

You simply cannot go wrong with a complete book of Beethoven's sonatas. An old, old guy gave me an old edition once. It's stitch bound, so it's still just about holding together, even though frequently played and must be 60-70 years old. The variety of music in there is astounding - from really quite simple and beautiful sonatinas to fiendishly difficult and dramatic pieces. To this day, it's my sightreading exercise of choice to pick a random movement of a Beethoven sonata and start playing until (usually) it gets too difficult after three or four pages.

No.8 in C minor (the Pathetique) is one of the best IMO. It's not as difficult as it looks at first sight, and is a wonderful crowd pleaser once it's up to speed.

i'm going to work on it this summer

I hate the first movement of the Pathetique, but I like the second movement and absolutely love the third.

The first movement is great drama - even if a little one dimensional in places.

The second movement is probably the easiest to play (badly), but the hardest to play well. It takes a very delicate touch to pick out the melody and bass without the middle overpowering.

I agree, the rondo is simply fantastic, and the increase in intensity in the last page or so matches the drama of the first movement.

My favourite recording of this so far is Emil Gilels - any other recommendations?

Define "hate". Do you really actually hate it? (It's a response I didn't expect to read to that particular sonata.) What do you so despise about it?

I think I've been picking up some change going on in how people use the word 'hate' in certain language areas... I also think it's spreading fast... I wonder if something could be done about it?

Hate is definitely a strong word, but I think "despise" is much stronger, IMHO.

I noticed in reading several biographies about Chopin that he "despised" so many things. In some cases, this word choice might have been the authors, but I've read it in so many books that I tend to think that Chopin himself must have used it often.

Since, to my recollection, Chopin was not fluent in English, it may be doubtful that he used the word often, if at all. Chopin's despising something may have been, then, a translator's interpretation or equivalent.

Regards,

Yes, Bruce, I do now recall that Chopin didn't speak English---French, Polish (naturally), Greek or Latin, perhaps; but he did rely on translators for English.

I wonder why that word is so often used when translating his letters. Perhaps there is no exact Polish equivalent of the word. It would be nice to know that there are some languages that have no word for "hate."

I do recall reading that when his father wrote him, it was in French; however, he always responded in Polish.

In one of their usages, both 'hate' and 'despise' signify "intense dislike".

In another sense, which is more closely related to the origin of the word, 'despise' is used with some added connotations that imply the existence of actual lowly characteristics in the object, or superior characteristics in the subject, in contrast with the simple statement of feeling made by employing the word 'hate'.

As much as I love his music, the use of the word despise could then have very well been used by Chopin. He definitely felt superior to others and with good reason (one could argue).

Thank you for that very interesting semantics lesson.

I put another vote for Gilels' pathetique.

It is the most beautiful recording of the work (especially the first movement).

wow... I am so moved by Movement 1, Grave, that it boggles the mind that someone would hate it.

Just goes to show you how different peoples tastes and perception can be. None of them wrong, BTW.

French for "despise" is "mepriser" which stems from the same Old French root so it would be a natural translation from the French. As I've only read Chopin's French letters in English I've no idea whether he went about "meprising" many things or not, but I'm yet to come across much primary justification for the contention of many "scholars" that he disliked all his musical contemporaries, that he disliked Beethoven, Schumann etc. This seems to be no more than the opinion of an early biographer that has been repeatedly endlessly by others without much verification (much like Thomas More's creation of Richard III's hump - he didn't have one). Chopin is actually remarkably silent on the subject of music and composers in general, apparently perferring simply to do and to talk about other things.

The maria joao pires recording of the pathetique isn't bad, but I think she plays the second movement a little to fast...

Also, the quality of the recording I got wasn't fantastic, which was a shame.

C H O P I N

-Frycek:
French for "despise" is "mepiser" [/b](sic) which stems from the same Old French root so it would be a natural translation from the French.[/b]

Mépriser does indeed mean to regard something with scorn, contempt or disdain and generally not worthy of attention, rather than actually to 'hate' something, which is the usual understanding of the English word 'despise' in modern common usage. The closest French equivalent for 'hate' would be IMO be détester or perhaps avoir horreur de...

Hmm, yet another ancient thread brought back from the dead...

-Michael B.

I am so fond of threads that diverge into semantic debates!

...and a rather old thread!

Moderators should charge all members who revive old, exhausted and totally dead threads $1.00 to be contributed to PW and charge those who contribute nothing of worth to the revived thread $.10

Here's my $.10

Cheers!

Ah, I'm in the bad habit of assuming that the threads at the top of the board are new.... Didn't realize this thread was ancient

C H O P I N

PS - I didn't revive it though

$ 10

BruceD,Hi!

Now, I'm of the thought that all those old threads were interesting to read in the archives, and I did that taking several months of spare time. I found it interesting reading - maybe even timeless reading. I wouldn't admonish any one from opening an old thread, some of us are new, therefore the postings are new and often relevant to us.

It's the "goofy" postings I have a low toleration point for and when the information from a poster is constantly and totally incorrect and being passed on as information to unsuspecting people, I seethe. See me seething

The fine on "goofy" should be $ to PWF for every person who was misled by it. :rolleyes:

Thanks for the therapy here - I got it out of my system.

How much do I owe?

Betty