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#427492 - 03/19/03 02:59 PM Help - what's that little thingie called...
jodi Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 6959
Loc: The Evergreen State (WA)
that looks kind of like an asterisk, or an x - and it means to do something like go up a half step, or down a half step, or something like that - I'm trying to read through Schumann's Romance, and I'm not sure I'm doing it right. Thanks!
\:\) Jodi (the theory dope)

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#427493 - 03/19/03 03:01 PM Re: Help - what's that little thingie called...
ClassicalVegan Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/07/02
Posts: 156
Loc: B.C. Canada
A little "x" is a double sharp - that is, go up 2 half-steps from the natural note. I hope that's the one you mean! \:\)
_________________________
Allie

"Sing praise to the God of Jacob! Start the music and beat the tambourines; play pleasant music on the harps and the lyres." Psalm 81:1-2.

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#427494 - 03/19/03 03:14 PM Re: Help - what's that little thingie called...
jodi Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 6959
Loc: The Evergreen State (WA)
So, if the note is already sharp, I just go up one half step, right? It sounds right everywhere but in the 7th measure, and then it just didn't sound quite right, so I wasn't sure if I was doing it correctly. What's the reason for notating with a double sharp? Thanks! \:\) Jodi

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#427495 - 03/19/03 03:26 PM Re: Help - what's that little thingie called...
Dan Offline


Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 1031
Loc: Colorado
Hi Jodi,

The double sharp accidental is always applied to the natural of the note, just like any other accidental. Same end result of course as "up a 1/2 step from a sharp".

According to my teacher, the use of the double sharp has to do with keeping the "spelling" of the manuscript in sync with the key the piece is written in.

Dan

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#427496 - 03/19/03 03:37 PM Re: Help - what's that little thingie called...
MikeC65 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/11/01
Posts: 325
Loc: St. Louis, Missouri
Double sharps and double flats are used to raise or lower, respectively, a note that is already a sharp or flat in the particular key you are playing in. The idea of using a double sharp or double flat is to accurately indicate which note of the scale is being raised or lowered. That's why you use a double sharp rather than just notating the next highest note on the keyboard. If you don't understand this, it really doesn't matter unless you want to know music theory.
_________________________
Mike Cohan
St. Louis, MO
1910 Steinway Model K

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#427497 - 03/19/03 03:43 PM Re: Help - what's that little thingie called...
jodi Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 6959
Loc: The Evergreen State (WA)
Thanks, guys. \:\) Jodi

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#427498 - 03/19/03 03:46 PM Re: Help - what's that little thingie called...
mrenaud Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/29/02
Posts: 1315
Loc: Switzerland
In the music of Galina Ustvolskaya, you can find triple flats and triple sharps as well. This is due to her being used to write chromatic scales in a diatonic way.

I can imagine someone has used quadruple flats and sharps as well.
_________________________
I have an ice cream. I cannot mail it, for it will melt.

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#427499 - 03/19/03 04:02 PM Re: Help - what's that little thingie called...
MikeC65 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/11/01
Posts: 325
Loc: St. Louis, Missouri
What's the notation for a triple sharp? Is it ### or is it #X or is it X#?
_________________________
Mike Cohan
St. Louis, MO
1910 Steinway Model K

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#427500 - 03/19/03 04:06 PM Re: Help - what's that little thingie called...
BruceD Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 18290
Loc: Victoria, BC
triple sharp = extra hot salsa!

No?

Sorry! \:D

Regards,
_________________________
BruceD
- - - - -
Estonia 190

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#427501 - 03/19/03 11:59 PM Re: Help - what's that little thingie called...
ClassicalPianoLisztner Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/29/02
Posts: 46
Loc: United States
Just out of curiosity, does anyone have a reason that the double sharp is an X instead of ##? The double flat is expressed that way(with the lopsided 'b' of course)
_________________________
Who Says Classical is Dead?
----------------------------------
Friend: What's your favorite song?
ME: Hungarian Rhapsody #2.
Friend: That stupid Queen song?!?
ME: Ugh!

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#427502 - 03/20/03 12:33 AM Re: Help - what's that little thingie called...
ClassicalVegan Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/07/02
Posts: 156
Loc: B.C. Canada
I've seen ## as well as x to mean double sharp...and as for flats, I've also seen bb with a slanting line through the flats to connect them. I don't know why double flat doesn't have its own separate symbol like the sharp does... (?)
_________________________
Allie

"Sing praise to the God of Jacob! Start the music and beat the tambourines; play pleasant music on the harps and the lyres." Psalm 81:1-2.

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#427503 - 03/20/03 12:42 AM Re: Help - what's that little thingie called...
PerfectPitch Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/13/02
Posts: 357
Loc: Yonkers, NY
 Quote:
Originally posted by jodi:
that looks kind of like an asterisk, or an x - and it means to do something like go up a half step, or down a half step, or something like that - I'm trying to read through Schumann's Romance, and I'm not sure I'm doing it right. Thanks!
\:\) Jodi (the theory dope)[/b]
x is double sharp. Just go up a half step from a sharp. You're doing fine! \:\)
_________________________
A synonym is a word you use when you can't spell the word you first thought of. - Burt Bacharach

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#427504 - 03/20/03 12:47 AM Re: Help - what's that little thingie called...
.rvaga* Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/14/02
Posts: 2046
Loc: Portland, Oregon
jodi,

As explained above, there are a couple of reasons why the X (double-sharp) must be used. I'll add an example just for grins. . .

Let's say you're in C# major, everything is sharped (c#-d#-e#-f#-g#-a#-b#-c#). Composer will move to the dominant (up a perfect 5th), so we can expect to go to G# major somewhere during the course of the piece. The spelling of G# major is: g#-a#-b#-c#-d#-e#-fX-g#

The double-sharp is because you must keep it alphabetical (logical within the system of music theory), or the theory gods will grow to anger, then who knows what will happen. Why can't the G# major be spelled as A-flat major? Because of 5th relationship between keys. G# major is related to C# major, the upper tetrachord of C# major becomes the lower in the next related key (circle of 5ths). A-flat major has nothing at all to do with C# major.

Or. . . spelling a chord. Must be stacked like a snowman (thirds) on the page (on the staff, when put into root position). For example, play B-flat,D,F,A-flat (B-flat 7th chord).

This chord could also be spelled:
A#,CX,E#,G#

Sounds the same, but spelled differently, depending on what key you're in.

Hope the above makes some sense. Hard to explain without the ability to show notes on the staff!

\:\)

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#427505 - 03/20/03 03:52 PM Re: Help - what's that little thingie called...
jodi Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 6959
Loc: The Evergreen State (WA)
 Quote:
Originally posted by rvaga:
... you must keep it alphabetical (logical within the system of music theory), or the theory gods will grow to anger, then who knows what will happen. [/b]
Good enough reason for me. ;\) \:D Jodi

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#427506 - 03/20/03 04:08 PM Re: Help - what's that little thingie called...
valarking Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/17/02
Posts: 2331
Loc: Dallas
 Quote:
Originally posted by ClassicalPianoLisztner:
Just out of curiosity, does anyone have a reason that the double sharp is an X instead of ##? The double flat is expressed that way(with the lopsided 'b' of course)[/b]
A ## is a 1/4 step up from a #.

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#427507 - 03/20/03 04:57 PM Re: Help - what's that little thingie called...
Ted Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/03/02
Posts: 1518
Loc: Auckland, New Zealand
Rvaga:

I must admit to being an absolute dud at writing this sort of thing out properly. I make things up using all sorts of chords and all sorts of keys no problems - fluent as the day is long - but writing them out - oh dear !

I have to admit to being thoroughly incorrect and lazy for the sake of clarity most of the time and, for example, writing an essential D major sound in a Db context as D natural, F sharp and A natural rather than E double flat, G flat and B double flat.
_________________________
"It is inadvisable to decline a dinner invitation from a plump woman." - Fred Hollows

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#427508 - 03/20/03 05:14 PM Re: Help - what's that little thingie called...
.rvaga* Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/14/02
Posts: 2046
Loc: Portland, Oregon
 Quote:
Well, not quite. For example, in Chopin's Waltz in c# minor, the section in the relative major is notated in Db major rather than C# major, just because it's easier to read. There *is* a relationship between C# major and Db major - they're enharmonic equivalents. In your example, if the composer was modulating into the dominant for just a couple of bars, yes, he would use a double-sharp, but if he was going to be in the dominant for a whole section, dollars to donuts he would notate it in the enharmonic equivalent.
Respectfully,
Boseymama
What is the relative major of C-sharp minor?? (-20)

The "B" section is of course in D-flat major, after the double bar and the key change[/b], which is indeed a complete SECTION of music, not an internal key change or a transient modulation.

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#427509 - 03/21/03 11:01 AM Re: Help - what's that little thingie called...
boseymama Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 03/20/03
Posts: 12
Loc: Greater Boston
rvaga, yes, I misspoke, should've said "parallel" instead of "relative." Still, I believe my point stands. Here's a better example: Schubert's Impromptu Op. 90 #4. It begins in ab minor. In measure 19 it seems to go into b minor, which, you would say, has nothing to do with ab minor. But it (the b minor section) must be understood as cb minor, just notated in an easier way. And there is no double bar, it is not an entire section, it is only a transient modulation.

Thanks for listening.

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#427510 - 06/06/03 12:10 PM Re: Help - what's that little thingie called...
Renauda Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/02
Posts: 5066
 Quote:
Originally posted by mrenaud:
In the music of Galina Ustvolskaya, you can find triple flats and triple sharps as well. This is due to her being used to write chromatic scales in a diatonic way.

I can imagine someone has used quadruple flats and sharps as well.[/b]
I don't wish to resurrect a dead thread but who publishes her music? I have been looking for her piano sonatas for some time now and have come up with nothing. Is there a European publisher?
_________________________
"The older the fiddle, the sweeter the music"~ Augustus McCrae

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#427511 - 06/06/03 12:27 PM Re: Help - what's that little thingie called...
mrenaud Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/29/02
Posts: 1315
Loc: Switzerland
Sikorski, if I'm not mistaken.
_________________________
I have an ice cream. I cannot mail it, for it will melt.

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#427512 - 06/06/03 12:53 PM Re: Help - what's that little thingie called...
Renauda Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/02
Posts: 5066
Thank you I'll look into it.
_________________________
"The older the fiddle, the sweeter the music"~ Augustus McCrae

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#427513 - 06/06/03 11:19 PM Re: Help - what's that little thingie called...
apple* Offline


Registered: 01/01/03
Posts: 19862
Loc: Kansas
Jodi, I thought this was a private little thread just for me and my hair thingy.

I was thinking, "How weird - what an odd idea for a topic", yet I was feeling honored in a way....

Oh well,,, just a music question.
_________________________
accompanist/organist.. a non-MTNA teacher to a few

love and peace, ├Ľun (apple in Estonian)

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