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Joined: May 2004
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Curious what y'all think of it. I recorded this a while back, in June I think. There are some technical mistakes with the cadenza 1:15, please forgive =) http://briefcase.yahoo.com/pshao01 *it's the only piece on there when you first go to the site* Thanks mucho
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It sounds good Mike, but you should try to bring out every note especially in the right hand accompaniment at the beginning. I can only here every other note, some are played too softly to be heard.
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I can understand what you're saying, however, please do note that I'm really trying to keep the accompaniment as quiet as possible. Not to an inaudible level, but as quiet as can be as to not to disturb the melody. On a few of the keys, I pushed down not enough to make a sound out of the piano. But truthfully, only 2 or 3 notes out of the RH accompaniment are inaudible. That's still 2 or 3 too many. The point, though, is to keep the accompaniment quiet enough to stay out of the melody.
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Also, I would take it just a little faster and really build up the momentum just before the little cadenza and that bit on the 3rd Page (I think where you finally get up to the C Major part where you have arpeggiated figures going down in the left Hand (and in the right it goes : A A B C E D C). Really build that up.
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Yea, I agree. Just so I don't misunderstand you, am I right in assuming you mean the part where the big chords start? I'm definitely doing some decrescendo there, maybe I should keep the momentum going all the way through.
Overall impression? Terrible? Bad, good, great, SUPER? Don't be afraid to comment on what you liked =)
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Good with room for improvement
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I liked it. I think you did a nice job of bringing out the melody in the return of the main theme played a 10th higher. While your ideas for this piece are good, I actually think the accompaniment should be stronger, and the melody should rise accordingly, instead of lowering the overall dynamic level of the piece. The arpeggiated chords are what make the piece interesting, and if the beginning is too subdued, it's hard to really create something new with the return of the main theme after the cadenza. Like I said before, the return of the main theme is quite nice. In this section it is a good idea to lower the overall dynamic level and bring the accompaniment down quite a bit. You voice the melody nicely. Other then that, I think the piece needs to be played just a bit faster, to let it flow more freely. I hope that helps. Continue to work on it! And be sure to post a complete recording when you're ready.
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Wow I guess I just have different beliefs on how this piece needs to be.
The first iteration of the theme is an introduction to the theme. It needs to be subdued. It flies around middle C and it's really just a quiet, calm, serene beginning to what will be an intense build up. But for now, no crazy stuff, let the audience know what the theme should be before changing things up. This section forms the base. The accompaniment of violins is subdued, playing its gentle arpeggios in the background. The melody takes hold. The audience yearns to hear more.
The second iteration of the theme, which is 10 notes higher, is more intense. This is Liszt repeating his words. It's a bit wilder, passionate, free form. The accompaniment should also be more intense here. The bass kicks in a little bit. The whole mood of this section is different, it's up one level from where it was before. The dynamics need to be more expressive here. In my recording, I decrescendo a little bit towards the conclusion of this section marking a transition ... but I like Reaper Man's suggestion which is to keep the momentum rolling, no letting up.
The third iteration is where the big chords begin. This is Liszt telling us, "I told you so twice, the third time now I'm for real" It's a passionate outcry. The accompaniment forms the momentum that pushes this section forward. The treble chords crash down and form a singing soprano. The bass is engaged and these guys are singing their hearts out as well. The piece reaches a climax.
Then, it subsides, leading into the fourth iteration of the theme. To me, this section represents a musical sigh. It's not in the recording, so I won't get into too many details.
Anyway, that's how the piece is scoped in my book.
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I'm picturing what that would sound like in my head, and I think it's beautiful. However, my opinion is still that this piece should be more expressive in the beginning, and subdued in the 2nd iteration. Maybe I'll learn it and show you how it sounds in my head. Thank you for posting your comments on the piece! I'm very excited to hear how it comes out.
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I agree with NAK, Mikester. The accompanyment is like this gold filagree work that should be quite vivid and apparent at all times. It dances behind the melody, but it is what give the piece is shimmering quality and gives it its forward momentum. Return of the main theme is quite good. I agree with a more lively tempo overall. With the tempo increase you could add considerably more rubato in places. The inherent melodrama in Liszt invites liberal use of rubato. You don't want to be tasteless, but I think you can come pretty close to the edge of tastelessness with rubato and Liszt, stay just on this side of it, and end up with a super performance. Accentuate the inherent melodrama without destroying the underlying pulse altogether. The climactic chords especially invite a rushing of the shorter notes, a lingering on the longer notes, then a broadening and opening up at the climax as though overwhelmed with the yearning for the beloved and determination to be with the beloved, but subsiding back untimately into the pleasant memory of the dream on first awakening. It's program music. Describe the program musically. Just a suggestion...
August Förster 215
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I guess, I just have different opinions on this piece. I feel like, I have played it the way I described.
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Rubenstein, eh? No one produces beautiful tone like Rubenstein, but in his effort to achieve bel canto tone, he seems to always favor refinement over passion. I think it's possible to do both, but he doesn't. If he's your model and your ideal performance of this piece, I understand better why you made the choices you did.
I listened again (BTW, the clip cuts off at the climax, so I haven't heard the whole piece yet). My original comments still stand. I don't hear you doing what I describe. Now that you've told me about Rubenstein, what I hear from your performance is what I often hear from Rubenstein -- emotion controlled and elevated to a level that, to my mind, is not Liszt. It is Mozart, definitely. It is Chopin in the Nocturnes (which is why Rubenstein's performances of them are celebrated). But Liszt, no. IMO Liszt is a gross sensualist and almost always extremely extroverted in his feelings -- heart hugely on both sleeves. That's why I don't think Liszt benefits from the refinement of Rubenstein but needs instead a far more extroverted, in-your-face approach, like Horowitz's or Earl Wild's. Rubenstein couldn't help himself; he made every composer sound refined.
You're welcome to disagree. BTW, Bolet takes this piece at about the tempo you do, though most pianists take it considerably faster. I think it sound better faster. If you're going to do is at a slower tempo, you really need to establish and maintain a clear sense of pulse underneath, so that no matter how you depart from it (in terms of rubato and phrasing generally), there's always a sense that it's there and that you'll return to it.
August Förster 215
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Are you saying that, as a Chopin nocturne, the performance would be considered excellent? I'll certainly take that as a compliment =)
But, I think I know what you mean. You want the arpeggios to stand out. You want this piece to woooshh move you. You want to have that Liszt in you. I'll give it a try and record and see if you like it better. Sound ok?
Can I make a comment though. This piece was written around the same time as Liszt's Consolations. When he moved to Weimar. At the time Liszt wrote his Consolations, it is apparent that his music was under the influence of Chopin. Take for example, Consolation #3, it is more than coincidence that piece bears resemblance to Nocturne op. 27, 2. Don't get me wrong, they disliked each other's tastes in music (Chopin once called Liszt "vulgar") but greatness always rubs off. There are other examples of Chopin influence on Liszt, for example his 10th Transcendental Etude was in part inspired by one of Chopin's Etudes (though, admittedly, Liszt composed the theme before hearing Chopin's Etudes); the left hand octave passage of Funerailles draws immediate comparison to Chopin Polonaise. Could this be another one of those cases? Possibly. I'm not saying it is, but it's certainly possible. In Weimar Liszt did in fact become more refined in his music writing, stepping back from the braggadocio (sp?) that marked his virtuoso years.
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Yes, woooshh move me! Carry me along and away! Don't be afraid to be obvious and, yes, a little vulgar.
Chopin called Liszt vulgar? Wow, that's a bitch slap! Yeah, but I can sure see why. Subtle he ain't. He is vulgar, and that vulgarity is to be celebrated! He's entertaining, like Joan Collins is entertaining. Obvious, over-the-top, and fun.
I think Liszt from this period is Chopin-like, but the resemblance is superficial. Chopin was truly introverted and introspective; Liszt was hopelessly, ebulliently extroverted.
Even in Liszt's late, religious period, when he was making a conscious effort at introspection, it's always sounded forced to me, like an extrovert trying desperately to get in touch with his introvert (and he's just not there!)
August Förster 215
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Mike, you've got a good feel for the "serene" side of this piece. If you can add more of the "passionate lover" feeling to this piece, without losing the serenity, it will sound exquisite.
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Tell you what, how about a compromise. I'm keeping the beginning section as it is - not only Rubinstein does this, but also Arrau, Barenboim, Yundi Li also play the beginning subdued.
But, here's the compromise: on the second iteration, I'll speed up the tempo a bit and the energy level. And the third iteration with the big chords, all passion breaks out. I'll give that a try and you tell me what you think =)
Mike
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Piano
by Gino2 - 04/17/24 02:34 PM
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