Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Pianist Corner How many people genuinely like atonality\no sense of key?

The right answer!

Why would the consonance/dissonance axis have to be removed? I think it's rather extended than removed.

Ah! The wrong answer. There is no consonance/dissonance in atonal (unless you mean the Alban Berg type of atonality).

I would be very interested to hear who told you something like that. Personally, I'd say that it is impossible to compose music that consists of changing pitches and harmonies that wouldn't in some way relate to the concept of consonance/dissonance. If you know a piece of music where that axis doesn't exist, please tell me about it.

Surely that's a matter of listener perception rather than the compositional process?

Besides, dissonance/consonance imply unstability around a tonal centre - which atonal music doesn't have.

The whole point of using a 12 tone row is to escape consonance/dissonance. Any Webern will illustrate. I have a degree in music - is that enough 'who told me so'?

It may be the whole point, but it doesn't guarantee it in reality. It is quite likely that in composing a 12-tone piece you will "accidentally" produce a major triad, or some other tonal-sounding progression. The composer who wishes to avoid tonality will not just let this happen. He/she will use the tone-row to produce the sounds he/she wishes to produce, not just let stuff happen. Even an atonalist will not deny that some intervals produce more or less tension than others, and will use this for their purposes. I mean a composer who is actually writing music, not just applying a formula.
Oh, and I have a music degree too.

I think that even composers like Boulez and Stockhausen (in their serialist styles...integral serialism) put a lot of effort into composing with their 'formulas' - I seriously doubt they just bung all the notes into the formula without any regard to aesthetics!

That's all very well Max but, more importantly, have you got a music degree?

kk, I would be interested to know exactly what you mean by this. Are you just talking about the terms, or about how intervals/chords are perceived in an atonal context, or something else?

I'm talking composer's intentions. Webern banished tonal centers as Max said earlier - without which consonance/dissonance has no meaning (how intervals/chords are perceived in an atonal context). Berg was half-and-half.

Ah, I see what you're saying . However, if consonance/dissonance really had NO meaning in the atonal context (without a tonal centre) then a major triad should not sound odd if it appeared. And it sometimes does, in my opinion (I'm thinking late Stravinsky, and Schoenberg). Whereas Berg can drift in and out of tonality because he perhaps wouldn't have agreed that consonance/dissonance had no meaning...
Time for coffee, I think

Two thirds of one currently wrestling with Schenkerian analysis and an essay on the importance of plainchant in medieval music.

So I guess...no...maybe I should shut up :p

I think I've heard that there is also a view that some sort of consonance/dissonance perception is hardwired into our sense of hearing, and has some basis in the harmonic series. (But I don't have a music degree, so maybe I heard wrong.)

Sounds good. The problem is the question was poorly articulated. There is a big difference between atonal and serial. Atonal, as in Berg, does at times have some sense of key - serial never.

Good on ya Max. Keep up the hard work!

Exactly. You hear what you want to hear. It's all subjective, which makes life easier for a lot of people..heh

Not in children. They don't develop it till their teens.

I'd throw in the "it also depends on their environment" stick but I don't think it's really relavent to this topic!

I shall state a very relevant quote here:

"Everybody has an answer, but not just any answer, the answer. If you think about it it's truly amazing the sheer number of people that have the officially authorized monopoly on truth." - Nihilism's Homepage

Nice quote - though my knowledge of nihilism is limited to The Big Lebowski...

(this is wildly off topic, but I think that I can relate a lot more to your previous postings regarding the situation of the classical artist in the world. I'm more and more drawn to experimentation and finding new ways to express my musical side, and try and express something modern and relatable, rather than letting myself be drawn into the tried and tested "create a time capsule in a recital and take the audience with you" routine. I played a great gig (on guitar) with some friends which was basically all improvised, jazz fusion. think latin american influences mixed with various jazz influences like modern creative and free jazz. it's probably right up your street)