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#43158 - 06/08/08 12:56 AM Estonia owners: length of break-in period?
romanticpianist Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/07/07
Posts: 45
Loc: Maryland/Wash DC
About 9-10 months ago, I purchased a new Estonia 190 at Piano Craft from Keith Kerman, a frequent contributor to the PW forums. Keith and his colleagues meticulously prepped the piano, adjusted and regulated the action to my liking, and provided exemplary post-purchase service and custom voicing for my living room. Thanks, Piano Craft folks, for all your hard work!

While the Estonia's sweet, dreamy tone and remarkable sustain are delightful, I am starting to think that I would better appreciate a more American-style piano, such as a NY Steinway or Steingraeber (I know that Steingraeber is made in Germany; I'm referring to the style of piano).

In my Estonia, the change in color from pp to ff is more subtle than in an American-style piano, and color is somewhat lacking at p-pp. While the Estonia has an "edge" in its tone at f-ff, the "edge" is more European than I would like, in that I hear more of the same harmonics instead of more overtones. Voicing the piano has not completely solved this: when the piano has wonderful color, it is too loud for the room, 90-100 dB; at more comfortable volumes, the piano has similar tone from pp to ff. We have moved the piano to different places in the room and adjusted the room's acoustics with rugs, etc. I have concluded that as Larry Fine has written in his Piano Book, a piano does not always sound the same in the home as in the store.

I have also read that some pianos take a few years to break in, and that during this break-in period, the tone becomes richer, fuller, and more colorful. I have read this particularly about NY Steinway (perhaps from the cold pressed hammers?), but I would certainly not want to hastily purchase another piano if my current Estonia would eventually meet my desires.

So I would like to ask my fellow Estonia owners: What have you noticed about the evolution of your Estonia's tone over the years you have owned and played it? Have you noticed a greater fullness and richness of color? What would you advise me to consider in my situation?

P.S. I have discussed this with Keith, but I wanted other perspectives, especially from actual Estonia owners on how their piano has changed over time in the home. Thanks!

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#43159 - 06/08/08 09:13 AM Re: Estonia owners: length of break-in period?
apple* Offline


Registered: 01/01/03
Posts: 19862
Loc: Kansas
the character and tonal quality of mine is pretty much the same as when i bought it. it has matured and ripened but it is essentially the same.

(3 years old)
_________________________
accompanist/organist.. a non-MTNA teacher to a few

love and peace, ├Ľun (apple in Estonian)

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#43160 - 06/08/08 10:19 AM Re: Estonia owners: length of break-in period?
pianoloverus Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19644
Loc: New York City
 Quote:
Originally posted by romanticpianist:
its tone at f-ff, the "edge" is more European than I would like, in that I hear more of the same harmonics instead of more overtones. [/b]
I believe the term harmonics means the same as overtones. Did you mean that the fundamental is more prominent?

As far as loudness is concerned, have you tried playing with the lid down and lid hinge folded back?

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#43161 - 06/08/08 11:45 AM Re: Estonia owners: length of break-in period?
schwammerl Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/06
Posts: 2012
Loc: Belgium
 Quote:
I believe the term harmonics means the same as overtones.
It is likely that romanticpianist is a 'purist' and sticks to the following definition of harmonics and overtones:

In musical terms, harmonics[/b] are component pitches of a harmonic tone which sound at whole number multiples above, or "within", the named note being played on a musical instrument.

Non-whole number multiples are called partials or inharmonic overtones[/b] .

http://khoomei.com/harmonic.htm

schwammerl.

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#43162 - 06/08/08 02:11 PM Re: Estonia owners: length of break-in period?
FogVilleLad Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/02/05
Posts: 4680
Loc: San Francisco
Re the loudness, one of our regular contributors was comfortably playing a concert grand at home, so there's no reason why a 190 should be too large. The operative words are "soft" and "irregular." If things such as furniture - including bookcases - and soft wall coverings won't do the job, acoustic panels - "traps" - will.

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#43163 - 06/08/08 04:48 PM Re: Estonia owners: length of break-in period?
Craigen Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/01/05
Posts: 1815
Loc: West Coast
Your Estonia is broken in by now. You bought a European grand. It sounds European. No amount of voicing or "breakin in" is going to change its basic nature.

Perhaps you would be happier with a S&S or M&H tone. Different animals.
_________________________
Piano Technician, member Piano Technicians Guild.

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#43164 - 06/08/08 05:01 PM Re: Estonia owners: length of break-in period?
Roy123 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/20/04
Posts: 1725
Loc: Massachusetts
I can't imagine that an M&H is quieter than an Estonia. The ability of a piano to change timbre when going from soft to loud is mostly a function of the nonlinear compression of its hammers. Perhaps cold-pressed hammers would both tame the volume and allow the timbre change you seek. I suspect that Keith has forgotten more about pianos than most people ever know, so I can't imagine you can go wrong taking his advice.

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#43165 - 06/08/08 05:14 PM Re: Estonia owners: length of break-in period?
Marty in Minnesota Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 02/09/07
Posts: 1178
Loc: Minnesota
I'm confused. I guess I would never equate the sound of a Steingraeber to a Steinway. Unless, that is, I have been lifting a few steins.

I agree with Craigen. You might just prefer the broad-shouldered sound of the American pianos.

Nothing wrong with that!
_________________________
Marty in Minnesota

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#43166 - 06/08/08 08:06 PM Re: Estonia owners: length of break-in period?
jollyroger Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/23/05
Posts: 848
Loc: Houston, TX
I agree with apple*. While my 190 is only a year old, the underlying tonal quality remains fairly consistent. However, "matured" and "ripened" are a good choice of words, and I completely agree. Although, I must say that I hear a bit of both European and American in the Estonia signature. Not too long ago, CC2 and Chopin Lover[/b] posted an interesting perspective on voicing that may address some of what you're talking about. Either way, it's a good read. Here it is....

Often, folks on these forums discuss being less than satisfied with either the touch/responsiveness, or the tone, or both, of their instrument. Frequently the discussion moves to the topic of regulating and prepping. While it is undeniable that proper adjustment of the myriad of interrelated components in a piano's action will make a world of difference, I have found that often, in the pianos I have inspected, the dampers are either totally neglected, or poorly regulated, at best. Why this is the case may stem from the fact that they can be very difficult to work on and get right, and they can take a lot of time and adjustment. The work must also be done in the client's home, and cannot be taken back to the tech's bench, as the action can. The implications are tremendous to the performance of the piano when this critical component of regulation is not done properly. Improper clearing of the dampers from the strings as they are lifted will, invariably, cause some notes to play less clearly and distinctly, than others. When the dampers don't lift in sync with the others around them, the player will sense that some keys feel "heavier" and less responsive, and create the need for constant compensation on the part of the player. If the damper stop rail height is improperly adjusted, the player will either feel a "bouncing" sensation in the keys while playing, or a "blocking" like effect when playing louder passages. Often these complaints are addressed with things like voicing of the hammers or adjustment of the let off, drop, etcetera. If the dampers are adjusted to engage just a little later in the action's cycle, the result will be less mass/inertia having to be overcome, thus a lighter, smoother, more controllable action for a relatively inexpensive investment. The effect on tone can also not be overstated. When the dampers are allowed to clear the strings completely, then drop back down into them without allowing leakage of unwanted sound, the resultant improvement in tone is nothing short of incredible.[/b] The bottom line is that, if a piano's damper system is properly and thoroughly regulated, ALONG with action regulation, tuning and voicing, the result will be an instrument you may not recognize!!!! This, by the way, goes for both new and used instruments.....trick is, you must find a tech who is competent and comfortable with doing what I've just described......the results will be well worth the effort.
_________________________
Music is the wine that fills the cup of silence.
Estonia 190 - Serial # 6561

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#43167 - 06/08/08 08:25 PM Re: Estonia owners: length of break-in period?
pianobuff Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/09/06
Posts: 1580
Loc: Pacific Northwest
I've had my Estonia almost a year, and I have the feeling that it is more that I am getting used to the sound than it has changed or ripened. I like it better now than I did when I first purchased it.

What I love about this instrument is the versatility in tonal quality and its response to dynamic change.

I personally feel it could be voiced again, I'm looking for a more rounded tone than it has. But I am planning on waiting until I move to have this work done.
_________________________
Private Piano Teacher,
member MTNA and Piano Basics Foundation

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#43168 - 06/08/08 09:08 PM Re: Estonia owners: length of break-in period?
FogVilleLad Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/02/05
Posts: 4680
Loc: San Francisco
Following up on Roy123's post, I think that Laul changed hammers a few years back. He wanted more more power, especially in the bass. Tho cold pressed Ronsen hammers are the natural choice if you're seeking nuance, you could also ask Keith re switching to the hammers with which this instrument was originally fitted. Abel's Natural hammers or their Renner equivalent could also be considered.

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#43169 - 06/09/08 04:44 PM Re: Estonia owners: length of break-in period?
Steve Ramirez Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/08/01
Posts: 1098
Loc: El Cajon, California
 Quote:
Originally posted by romanticpianist:

While the Estonia's sweet, dreamy tone and remarkable sustain are delightful, I am starting to think that I would better appreciate a more American-style piano, such as a NY Steinway or Steingraeber.

In my Estonia, the change in color from pp to ff is more subtle than in an American-style piano, and color is somewhat lacking at p-pp. While the Estonia has an "edge" in its tone at f-ff, the "edge" is more European than I would like, in that I hear more of the same harmonics instead of more overtones. Voicing the piano has not completely solved this: when the piano has wonderful color, it is too loud for the room, 90-100 dB; at more comfortable volumes, the piano has similar tone from pp to ff.[/b]
It sounds like you know what you want from a piano and somehow you bought the wrong piano anyway. Do it and yourself a favor and sell it to somebody who likes it the way it is.

The kind of dynamic coloration you describe is something that is abundant in my Walter. It allows you to get very expressive dynamics in your playing without exceeding a reasonable living room SPL. This is also a characteristic of good Steinways and many other pianos as well. It's a pity you didn't buy one.

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#43170 - 06/09/08 05:50 PM Re: Estonia owners: length of break-in period?
romanticpianist Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/07/07
Posts: 45
Loc: Maryland/Wash DC
@apple*, Jollyroger, pianobuff: Thanks for describing your experience with your Estonias. Mine, too, has been quite consistent.

@Jollyroger: Thanks for the input re dampers. Those were carefully checked and regulated by Piano Craft's resident damper expert.

@pianoloverus, FogVilleLad: Yes, I usually play with the lid down and hinge folded. At times I play with the all the way down and the music desk on top of the piano. We have a rug under the piano with acoustic padding, some acoustic pads in the room corners, furniture, and curtains.

@schwammerl: Yes, your definition of harmonics and overtones is the one that I understand.

@Steve Ramirez, Craigen: The piano sounded great in the showroom, with more than sufficient color and superior clarity than a typical S&S or M&H (otherwise, why would I have bought it). But when it was voiced for the home, I had the issues I described in my original post. I still like the Estonia very much, especially for Chopin nocturnes and Schubert.

I appreciate everyone's input so far.

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#43171 - 06/10/08 05:42 PM Re: Estonia owners: length of break-in period?
Innominato Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/05/08
Posts: 802
Loc: London
A curiosity question: would those who have had direct experience of both say that in their experience the Steinway Hamburg are more "european" in character, or that they possess the "broad-shouldered" sound of the NY ones?
_________________________
"The man that hath no music in himself / Nor is not mov'd with concord of sweet sounds / Is fit for treasons, stratagems, and spoils." (W.Shakespeare)

Kemble Conservatoire 335025 Walnut Satin

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#43172 - 06/10/08 09:41 PM Re: Estonia owners: length of break-in period?
Marty in Minnesota Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 02/09/07
Posts: 1178
Loc: Minnesota
Innominato,

Being blessed with being able to play, and perform, on both the NY and Hamburg Steinways, I would say that they both have the broad-shouldered sound. The Steinway, here or there, is intrinsically different than a Steingraeber, Bossendorfer, Grotrian, etc.

The Hamburgs are voiced "lighter" in most cases. But, when you dig in, the Steinway sound and color comes through. On the surface, the Hamburgs sound more "European" but the guts are pure NY Steinway. (Though, "broad shouldered" is pure Carl Sandburg about Chicago!) (It is an American concept.)

Either instrument, of whatever size, can go from Bach or Mozart to the color needed for the Brahms 2nd. Concerto. And yes, we won't exclude Debussy.

I must admit that I am not a fan of Steinway-L, however. It just never seems to fit in its own skin.
_________________________
Marty in Minnesota

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#43173 - 06/10/08 11:54 PM Re: Estonia owners: length of break-in period?
sophial Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/11/05
Posts: 3490
Loc: US
Here's a link to a recent article on a concert featuring both a New York and a Hamburg Steinway D that might be of interest to you, Innominato.

http://pcccourier.com/2008/05/15/art/inaugural-concert-showcases-new-piano/

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#43174 - 06/11/08 04:38 AM Re: Estonia owners: length of break-in period?
Innominato Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/05/08
Posts: 802
Loc: London
Marty and Sophial, thanks so much to you both!! \:\)
_________________________
"The man that hath no music in himself / Nor is not mov'd with concord of sweet sounds / Is fit for treasons, stratagems, and spoils." (W.Shakespeare)

Kemble Conservatoire 335025 Walnut Satin

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#43175 - 06/11/08 09:08 AM Re: Estonia owners: length of break-in period?
John Pels Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 1264
Loc: Tomball, Texas
As to the NY vs Hamburg debate, a couple of months ago I posted a link to a Valentina Igoshina playing the Chopin C minor nocturne on a Hamburg D. It is a fabulous piano, that in many ways embodies the NY (classic American) sound. It has a lot more to do with hammers and voicing than many folks want to believe. That being said, the Hamburg Steinway is to my ear, the least european sounding piano made there, and Craigen's post is most apt. If it walks and quacks like a duck, it's (generally) a duck.

For me though, and in all seriousness, if cost were no object and you could ante up for another set of hammers, shanks and flanges and install them and re-regulate, I would be VERY curious at how it (the Estonia) would sound. There again I have a great curiosity as to how some of the Yamaha CF's would sound with an alternate set of hammers, in that some of these share a scale with the Steinway D.

The listening environment is certainly a key factor. Cathedral ceilings are a big plus to add ambiance. If I were to ask only one thing of my present house, it would be 10 or 12 foot ceilings.

Is it possible that you are asking too much from a 190cm piano? What sort of instrument did the 190 replace, or did you have no other piano in this exact environment?

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#43176 - 06/11/08 06:29 PM Re: Estonia owners: length of break-in period?
romanticpianist Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/07/07
Posts: 45
Loc: Maryland/Wash DC
@John Pels: The Estonia 190 replaced a Kawai digital piano, which is a pretty good digital but obviously doesn't compare with a good grand.

I don't know whether I'm asking too much of a 6'3" grand. Basically I want to be able to play more quietly while still retaining color. Voicing the piano down has resulted in color loss. My attempts to voice the room only made a small difference, but mostly it has driven my aesthetically-minded wife crazy from rearranging furniture here and there, and seeing acoustic pads covering various parts of the walls.

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#43177 - 06/11/08 07:07 PM Re: Estonia owners: length of break-in period?
M&B Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/19/06
Posts: 262
Loc: California
Here is the bad news. You don't even have a true European sound. I want to say that the problem with ALL eastern European pianos; as they get older they don't retain their tonal quality.
I guarantee you a Sauter, Seiler or Grotrian will not only retain excellent tonal quality but will give you a true European sound; emphasizing in the fundametal tone with projection and great tonal quality/color at ppp, pp, and not just a little (steel guitar sound like) as in the so call European pianos.
Easter European pianos are almost like a Chinese pianos just a little more refined.
_________________________
Piano Dealer
Representing Kawai, Mason&Hamlin.

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#43178 - 06/11/08 09:25 PM Re: Estonia owners: length of break-in period?
romanticpianist Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/07/07
Posts: 45
Loc: Maryland/Wash DC
@M&B: On what experience with Eastern European pianos like Estonia do you base your comments below? I'm sure the Estonia owners and prospective buyers would be interested. (I would at least agree with your second sentence; the Estonia is a hybrid between European and American sounds.)

 Quote:
Here is the bad news. You don't even have a true European sound. I want to say that the problem with ALL eastern European pianos; as they get older they don't retain their tonal quality.
I guarantee you a Sauter, Seiler or Grotrian will not only retain excellent tonal quality but will give you a true European sound; emphasizing in the fundametal tone with projection and great tonal quality/color at ppp, pp, and not just a little (steel guitar sound like) as in the so call European pianos.
Easter European pianos are almost like a Chinese pianos just a little more refined.

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#43179 - 06/12/08 01:50 PM Re: Estonia owners: length of break-in period?
Steve Ramirez Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/08/01
Posts: 1098
Loc: El Cajon, California
 Quote:
My attempts to voice the room only made a small difference, but mostly it has driven my aesthetically-minded wife crazy from rearranging furniture here and there, and seeing acoustic pads covering various parts of the walls. [/QB]
Please ignore the crap about Eastern European pianos. Taking that bait will kill off an interesting thread.

Did you make changes to the room before or after you had the hammers voiced down? Working on the hammers should have been your last resort if you liked how they sounded in the showroom. Is there a rug directly under the soundboard? A thick wool rug under the soundboard will soak up many decibels.

It may be that the original voicing combined with lots of sound absorbing elements in the room would have given you the sound you wanted. One Christmas, the addition of a 7" Noble Fir to my living room made it go absolutely dead. It may have been the placement or it may have been just one too many elements but the effect was like night and day.

Another thing to consider: with less than a year in your home this is still a green piano as far as string stability. Between tunings there may be all kinds of unpleasant sounds coming out of this piano that annoy you at a subconscious level and detract from the the musical experience. If it puts a smile on your face after a fresh tuning then that is surely the case.

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#43180 - 06/12/08 02:38 PM Re: Estonia owners: length of break-in period?
romanticpianist Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/07/07
Posts: 45
Loc: Maryland/Wash DC
@Steve Ramirez: Thanks for your post.

The sequence of events was 1st moved piano closer to cathedral ceiling part of house; 2nd placed rug under piano; 3rd placed beanbag under the soundboard, rearranged existing furniture, and put acoustic pads at various points along the walls, vexing my wife but no improvement; 4th voicing the hammers down.

Voicing down was definitely necessary because my living room is very acoustically live compared with the Piano Craft show room.

I wanted to get more bookshelves, sofas, and other sound-absorbing materials for the room, but it is relatively crowded as it is (room is 14x16' or so), so my wife vetoed that.

So basically I want a quieter piano (currently 100 dB at ff, which is too loud), while keeping adequate color. Still thinking about whether to switch to cold-pressed Ronsen hammers ...

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#43181 - 06/12/08 03:26 PM Re: Estonia owners: length of break-in period?
Rich D. Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/27/01
Posts: 1268
Loc: Rehoboth Beach De. USA
I wondering if you could have your tech just temporarily switch out a few of your old hammers in one section with the cold-pressed Rosens so that you could get a feel for how the Ronsens will sound? Just a thought.

Rich
_________________________
Retired at the beach (well maybe not completely)

Anton Rubinstein said about the piano: "You think it is one instrument? It is a hundred instruments!"

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#43182 - 06/24/08 01:17 PM Re: Estonia owners: length of break-in period?
Pianostudent77 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/12/08
Posts: 115
romanticpianist,

If it's really a problem, how about changeing to a smaller grand, like the Estonia studio? It is said that, since market value of Estonia's is estimated to improve over the years the dealer will buy back your piano without any loss... you'll probably do need to buy another instrument of the same value you originally paid. (read this in a Forbes article)

As for sound, i wouldn't go changeing hammers or anything. An Estonia is known and build to have a more sweet, romantic tone than others. Either you like it or you don't.

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#43183 - 06/24/08 04:17 PM Re: Estonia owners: length of break-in period?
cm2872 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/27/06
Posts: 221
Wouldn't changing out hammers require a complete re-regulation/weighting? I would think this could really affect the feel of the action.

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#43184 - 06/24/08 04:17 PM Re: Estonia owners: length of break-in period?
cm2872 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/27/06
Posts: 221
duplicate post

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#43185 - 06/24/08 07:14 PM Re: Estonia owners: length of break-in period?
gryphon Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/01
Posts: 11678
Loc: Okemos, MI
What kind of a home do you have? All hardwood floors and ceramic/porcelain tile? If so, good luck with such a live environment.
_________________________
"If we lose freedom here, there's no place to escape to."
MSU - the university of Michigan!
Wheels

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