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How fast should a professional pianist be able to play their scales? I can do scales around 180 bpm(Four 16ths). If I go any faster, they start to become uneven.

I think if you can play scales in sixteenths with perfect control at 180 you have a fine professional scale technique that should be more than adequate for demanding scale passage work in most standard repertoire that I can think of.

However, for true virtuoso technique, the number thrown about is 200. I have heard that number from faculty at Peabody and Juilliard among others.

Yes, I always had to go to 200 in sixteenths. Once you get to about 170 progress can slow down. I always played the scales in different rhythms to get them cleaner and faster.

Examples (pause on dashes):

1-2341-2341-2341-2341
12-3412-3412-3412-3412
123-4123-4123-4123-4123

Listz, Alkan, Rachmaninoff could probably play their scales around 250, right? At that point, it would almost sound like a slow glissando.

Sounds to me more like an event for the Olympics than having anything to do with music.

nah, their hands are way too big for them to play scales that fast.

Well, just look at Alkan's Le Chemin de Fer, Etude Op.27! It's crazy fast!

http://youtube.com/watch?v=6fo_ZNKaDcA

Sheet music:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=lLpXr2PgdQk

The tempo marking for the half note in Le Chemin de Fer is 152. So that means Alkan could play scales and arpeggios at 304 bpm!

Don't believe everything you see. The actual MM for it is half-note at 112. Still very fast, but remember he was writing for an instrument with a shallower key-dip (and probably a lighter action) than a modern piano, which makes all the difference at that kind of tempo. Plus, the left hand has no scalar parts in sixteenths.

Ok, I just noticed that right now. So basically, 304 bpm is impossible for the human being capability on a modern piano.

God, that scared me! If it was possible for him or any human being to play that fast, I'd quit the next day and I would never mention about the piano ever again.

Or, you could have dropped the concern with speed and taken up music instead.

Oh, they just say that because it is easy to remember, and they have fun scaring people.

I wonder, how much repertoire really requires scales at that rate? Especially works (other than etudes) where the composer really asks for it with a metronome marking? I'd guess a pretty tiny fraction of it.

I've played some scalar passages in one hand at a time, so I'd believe it. You'd see a lot of such markings in Czerny . That's very intense, and difficult, I'm sure, but not unbelievable.

You are quite right about the action of the pianos during this period. Patricia Frederick does a nice demonstration of a Czerny etude, at the metronome markings written, on an 1830 Boesendorfer. This tempo is quite impossible to achieve on a modern piano. The action on this piano is extremely light and very shallow so the fingers fly all over the place.

In order to achieve anything close to what Alkan wants today, the modern piano would have to be really regulated well and have a realy light action.

John

Another way to practice scales is to stop and pause every time the thumb goes under or every time the other fingers go over the thumb. It makes the manuevers around the thumb second nature.

[edit: I'm talking about hands separately]

best wishes,
Valerie

Here again we see, on pianos with heavy actions some pieces are impossible, or very hard to play...

And still some people are prefering pianos with heavy action. Like in an other thread "Yamaha UI too light, Steinway upright more on the level of the modern grand".

Hard to understand!

I definitely prefer heavier action. It allows for greater control, in my opinion. Furthermore, it develops the fingers more. You simply can't get it on an upright or a lighter action.

So Horowitz and Liszt could not control their playing because of the light action?

Developing fingers more? Not necessarily finger sensity, nor speed. Have you ever seen a sprinter training in diver's boots.

Uprights often have heavier actions than good grands.

No offense people, i never prefer speed in performing. it comes by itself. in practicing scales, which i do everyday, i would focus on building my finger technique.

each piano is different. my kawai upright is heavier than the steinway in my uni. but the bostons grand are often quite heavy and good for the fingers and strength too.

Hey. I think you guys playings scales this fast is awesome. I was wondering if you (any of you) could post a video on youtube or something showing this.
I'd like to see.

You can find people all over on youtube playing scales this fast - just search for virtuoso performances (etudes, concertos, etc...)especially in the virtuoso classical repetoire.