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I'd agree with the first statement but definitely not the latter. If you're one of those lucky folks who can play a piece all the way thru against a metronome on a first try - good for you. Every other keyboardist/pianist I know has had to practice with a metronome in order to develop this skill.

I recommended use of the metronome only to make sure he plays slowly enough. It is not a tool for musicality, IMO, but it is one for technique. I assume that someone playing scales at this level would also have already developed their own sense of timing and the use of the metronome is as I say, only technical.

wait...so I SHOULD be using some arm/wrist in my playing? In the past, that's what has made my sound weak and sketchy...I would use too much wrist and sort of "throw my wrist" into the piano and the result was unevenness and a halting in speed development.

So now I try to play everything with finger, and a very small amount of wrist, and my sound is much better, my notes are far more even, and I can play faster...but you're telling me I need to learn to use my wrist as well? I'm not being skeptical, I'm just inquisitive--how do I use my wrist correctly to help aid my fingers in playing scales? When you say "bounce" the wrist for each note, do you mean play like I would normally play staccato? And how can this bounce be implemented at higher speeds? My wrists can't bounce at 16th notes to 120...few pianists' can.

As for the metronome, I'm a drummer, so I use a metronome A LOT for drumming, and I enjoy it So I have only recently been playing to a metronome with the piano, and I really enjoy the strict "metricness" it forces into my scales

But about the wrists...yeah, can someone elaborate for me? I want to make my technique EXCELLENT, but I don't even know what it should look like...and how am I to develop excellent technique without knowing what it is?

Soccer__daemon, it's all a question of
time and energy. I want to play the biggest,
most difficult pieces, even though I'm
just a run-of-the-mill amateur with below
average talent. I cannot be satisifed with
playing waltzes and preludes for the rest
of my life, like some people can.

But of course an amateur with below average
talent cannot play big concert pianist-level
pieces in what would be considered the
conventional way--there is insufficient talent
for that. However, an inept amateur can
play such pieces by brute force repetitive
effort over a long time, which is what I
do. And if you work on them long enough,
you'll actually be able to play them up
to speed, and well to boot. Others on
these forums have reacted violently when
I've said things like this in the past,
apparently because they are satistified
with playing a-i pieces for life and don't
like it when other average players aren't.
Morever, these people will never be
able to play big pieces--they lack sufficient
talent--and so they are apparently very disturbed
to see someone with maybe even less talent
than they have playing them.

But when you practice big-time pieces like
this without the talent for them, they
consume all the energy you have for
a practice session, and there's nothing
left for things like Chopin waltzes, which
are by no means easy to play well and
require considerable work to get up to
speed. I could put in the time to work
one up, but that would mean I'd have to
drop some big-time piece that I am now
working on, and I'm not willing to do
that.

And I believe it all comes down to strength--
I don't like the "technique," because it is
essentially meaningless, in my view; what,
exactly, do you mean when you say "technique"?
You can play with speed and control and in
a seemingly "relaxed" manner only if you have
developed the strength to do so.

Not if your experience is any indication. You've repeatedly said that after years of brutal struggle, your big-time concerto movement is at 75% speed with errors.
How would you characterize your reactions to the reasoned responses of people who disagree with you? (You know, like "Hey, why don't you shut the ___ up" or "Hey, why xxx'x xxx xxxx xx.")
No one has seen you play anything. You're mistaken—big time!—about the reason "they" might find your posts disturbing.

Steven

Gyro...can you please just leave this topic. You're not contributing for me or anyone else. Back to my previously posted question, anyone?

Your basic playing technique has to be improved. otherwise you will not be able to play scales properly. My belief is that you should progress in following way

- you should sit att the right height
- you should aim at keeping your wrist at the same level all the time. No intentional dropping or lifting!
- you have relaxed arms and shoulders
- your wrist must be side-wise flexible, to make thumb-under possible without lifting the wrist too much And avoid lifting your elbows.
- you should play simple Hanon exercises first to get control over your fingers and the dynamics especially. Also in keys involving black keys
- then start with scales, slowly, hands separate, without any rythmic accents, at normal volume level, three or four octaves.
- when you can play evenly without excessive hand movements you can gradually work up the speed.
- you combine your hands
- you play in other intervalls than octave
- you play in opposite directions
- you play fast and pianissimo
- you add clear accents on every 6th, 7th, or 9th

You quit the metronome and listen carefully to the eveness with your bare ears. And you add speed only when you are really ready for it.

P.S. In a piano tutorial book you will find the right fingering for every key. Very important!

I'm not a teacher, but I, for one, do not agree with this statement. Forcing a level wrist would create tension.

Practicing this type of motion in scales would lead to following it outside of scale practice. Isn't a drop and lift process part of how legato is taught? At least it was when I first took lessons years ago.

Rich

Will, as I explained earlier, the bounce will become less and less at faster speed, but the relaxation in the wrist will remain. It's not like staccato, because staccato is an upward bounce of the hand and wrist, and I'm speaking of a downward bounce.

Fingers need to be used, but remember that the fingers are all controlled by the muscles and tendons of the forearm. There is already a small passageway for these tendons to go through the narrow wrist, and so if the wrist is stiff, they are less able to move freely.

Now that you have gone from one extreme (all arm weight) to another (all fingers) try adding arm weight to what your doing and see how it helps. I think a balance of both is necessary.

Your hands are not together (always sounds like someone falling down the stairs to me) esp. in the fast scale. Your elbow is flopping in and out.

Okay, thank you for all of the excellent advice.

UPDATE:

Yesterday I tried playing with ZERO tension, and it really worked, but I had to slow down a bit. I played scales only at triplets-to-120 speed, without a metronome, and I really focused on keeping the right pinky relaxed and not sticking out/up.

I notice that my left hand's pinky seems perfectly positioned, it curls when it's inactive and generally never extends when it's not being played. Why can't my right pinky do that? My right pinky, even when I try to relax it, doesn't quite "curl," it just doesn't "stick up"...it is still a little extended, but not uncomfortably. It doesnt look like exactly my left pinky, though, but it should, because we're symmetrically built, right?

Now that I've slowed down and am concentrating more, I find that my hands are more together, much less "falling down the stairs" effect, and more importantly, I avoid tension altogether. Will I suddenly just become comfortable and adept at playing at faster tempoes if I just practice at a comfortable, slower speed? Or do I need to sort of dip into the waters of discomfort, so I can gradually get more comfortable with it?

As for arm weight/finger, I'm just hoping my intuition will kick in correctly now that I've slowed down and am not feeling tension, as well as focusing on staying relaxed.

It's incredible how much hidden tension you can find if you look for it. My legs and feet get tense often while I'm playing. I'm trying to become completely tension-free. Somehow that should help my playing, right?

Thanks for helping me out so much, everyone!

Sounds like you're getting somewhere. It's funny you mention the legs/feet. I've been thinking about that in the last couple of days. A few years ago I remember my toes curling as I played . My legs/feet are now absolutely tension free (not that I know why). I do notice my knees are more or less directly over my ankles - I just look down and wonder though. it may take years but once you start down the tension free path maybe it all takes care of itself. One last tip - when you brush your teeth see that your upper arm lies against your side rather than hold it out (same when drinking a cup of tea or coffee) - I know for a fact one of the world's most famous teachers (he helped out Martha Argerich) does that.

Oh, just realized, the feet/leg thing is when not using the pedal (one of my pianos doesn't even have any!).

It does sound like you're catching on. Some of the people on this website have a remarkable ability to verbalize the physical, which isn't easy. Morodiene is particularly good at it. That's why I'm sure she is a terrific teacher.

Good luck, and keep up the hard but focused work. Make sure you play some music. Scales aren't music. They are rudiments, like flams, or rolls, or paradiddles.

ToDragonPianoPlayer:

No INTENTIONAL dropping or lifting means your wrist flexes as much as neccessary - not more.
When your wrist can flex sidewise and you master the thumb-under technique, your wirst automatically remains at nearly constant level when playing scales.

I have NEVER recommended a rigid wrist nor forcing anything. Just doing it the right way. Working up and domn with wrist or elbows when playing scales is certainly not the right method.