Originally posted by fathertopianist:
bump [/b]

Can you state with good conscience that you do not engage in spin?

Originally posted by honkytonk:
When we use the word spin we are really referring to sales spin. Salesman do it every day, it's their job really.

Ori posts here for one reason, to sell pianos. According to him he sells alot of pianos, so I'm sure he is a very busy man. But he still manages to find the time to write overly wordy posts every time one of his piano lines is discussed. Obviously he has found this forum much more effective than than beating the streets or cold-calling out of the yellow pages.


Every month or so Ori is involved in a controversial topic that draws more attention to him and the piano lines he represents. Whether or not Ori's marketing efforts will be effective remains to be seen, but he obvious finds posting here to be good use of his time. [/b]

Originally posted by Ori:
Fatherofpianist,
This isn't your first post in regards to me, and one could only guess for your motivation in resurrecting this old thread.

Your remarks to me on the other thread though, show that you yourself may have a little bias, and saying unsupported things like "giving with one hand and taking away with the other", without examples doesn't leave much for us to discuss about.

In fact, please remember that the first thing in the post I copied above about spin, and that was made months ago and definitely without you in mind I say:

I think that "spin" is when things are said without the poster being able to back them up in one way or another

So in a way, unless you give a specific example of what you are eluding to, you're engaging yourself in what I would consider to be spinning. Especially taking into account that this isn't your first, less then complimentary remark you have made about me, although we have never met, and although you have never been in my business.

Please don't take it as a personal comment, it isn't. As I remind you, I wrote this post a long time ago and without you in mind...but it applies here very well. So while I appreciate your comments, I hardly think that you're coming from an unbiased point of view yourself.

Please note that the same people who are so quick to accuse of spinning, and using "sockpuppets", are the same few that time after time have looked down on this forum from another site, and seem to project the feeling that they are the only superior ones who can point all the "stupid" readers to the light.
The less then factual material they read over there, which is often, in my opinion laced with biased and pin of the worst level, is staying usually not contended, since this is a group of people that seem to agree among themselves and have either been banned from here (sometimes under a few different names), or have voluntarily outcaste themselves from different reasons.

The few who read this site, however, may get the feeling that they are in the presence of greatness and if they buy into it, may form very biased, cynical opinions about others who don't post there, and especially those who have repeatedly handed them their hats and canes but correcting their misinformation and pointing to their agendas while they were posting here.

Some, as you probably know, are "ambassadors" who are taking heir bias, and what they think is a "superior" knowledge from there, and try to export it here. Once they find out, often to their amazement, that their efforts are not usually successful since others not only hold different opinions then theirs, but can also support what they say often with the facts, they resort in their frustration to mockery, cynical one line remarks, personal comments and their favorite...accusation of anyone who hold a different opinion as spin.

Now, when we talk about people who are involved in the industry, or have been involved in the industry, I do think that they should hold themselves responsible very clearly and present their affiliations

Lets take, for example, some possibilities that may emphasize the need for disclosure of affiliation.
One example can be a paid "consultant" to a specific distributor who imports, and heavily involved with a few brand names. This person should state clearly in his signature line that he is involved, and with WHICH companies…just as dealers are expected to do. This way, people can understand their affiliations and take their remarks, as honest as they are meant to be, with the knowledge that they are involved and unbiased.

To add another possibility, a different poster may have actually been the manager of that same organization until only a few years ago, and now he is no longer working there. His affiliation should also be noted even if he is no longer involved with the company for other reasons.
For one, it could explain friendship relationships and personal connections with ex co workers, which may lead people to share similar opinions. Also, maybe while being the manager of that company, he had very strong competition from another firm, and as he witnessed the other company succeeds and break away, the company which he was in charge of importing suffered declining sales and almost crumbled into forced bankruptcy.
This could explain some hard feelings that are bottled up, whether it had any connection to his “retirement” or not, and may shed a different light on things that he is saying about that company, or some of its agents or dealers.

Of course, I don't except anyone to write their "life stories" in their signature line, but a simple truthful disclosure of their affiliation with a specific company rather then just “industry professional” usually put things in better perspective.

I'm not even talking here about any ex-dealers who went out of business, yet still keep close enough connections to some companies and an "internet presence", so that when someone is looking in for a particular instrument they offer to "get him one"...
Knowing this, may present everything that they say with” objectivity" as less then so, and in my opinion it is absolutely the worst kind of spin.

So while I appreciate your comments, If you're really interested in knowing how to sort out spin then you have many other fires to put then to look at what a dealer, who is clearly stating his affiliations, and make a clear separation between what he considers factual information, what is a description of events and what is their clearly stated opinion.
Please note that neither you nor anyone else who like to criticize me here have ever managed to point anything that I said as factually incorrect, and the contrary is correct. Every time I was challenged, I provided proof for my words. If you feel that you can, please quote what it is…

I can’t tell you or anyone else here whom to trust, but personally, anyone who is idolizing someone who has been proven by the site owner to post under at least 5 different names, using his sock puppets to argue with himself, endear himself or berate his competition (and yes, anyone who can “get” a piano for a consumer, even if he claims to be out of the business and objective) is not anyone I’d trust to form an opinion by their words.

You can trust that those who read the threads here are as smart as you, and can make up their own mind without your interpretations. They can make up their own minds just as you can make up yours, and if their opinion is different then yours, I believe that you'd feel that it is inappropriate for anyone to derail a thread from its subject, informing you that they have made up your mind for you, and that from now on they will not allow constructive discussion to evolve about the topic of the thread. [/b]

Originally posted by Piano*Dad:
Ori: I did read the threads. Yesterday FTP threw a rather softball critique at you (and at other dealers). He expressed discomfort when dealers extol the virtues of pianos they sell, but he also said that those dealers have clear reasons to feel passionately and that they provide information. This is a view I share. Then he defended you against the sockpuppet charge in a different thread.

By the way, the sort of cannonade between Ori and Honkeytonk is a major source of frustration for me (and maybe for a lot of other non-dealer members. Well, maybe it's fun if you also love professional wrestling

I guess I long for the sort of world where I don't have to have my spin detectors at full extension 100% of the time. Jolly, what was that about good spin versus bad spin again? [/b]

Originally posted by AD:

Stating brands sold in a signature line does not make any dealer's subtle advertising practices or competition bashing more palatable.