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Topic Options
#443017 - 07/19/05 11:50 AM Arpeggio sign
prokofiev Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/20/05
Posts: 388
Loc: California
If there is an arpeggiated sign on both left and right hand chords, do you roll them simultaneously, or do you roll them as if it's one big arpeggiated chord?
_________________________
prok

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#443018 - 07/19/05 12:13 PM Re: Arpeggio sign
Kreisler Offline



Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 13817
Loc: Iowa City, IA
Simultaneously. If they're to be done as one big chord, the arpeggio line will go all the way up.
_________________________
"If we continually try to force a child to do what he is afraid to do, he will become more timid, and will use his brains and energy, not to explore the unknown, but to find ways to avoid the pressures we put on him." (John Holt)

www.pianoped.com
www.youtube.com/user/UIPianoPed

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#443019 - 07/19/05 12:14 PM Re: Arpeggio sign
jpw101 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/17/05
Posts: 631
Loc: UK
It depends on the context, but generally you'd roll the two simultaneously. If the composer wanted you to roll it as one chord, they could extend the arpeggiando sign from one chord to the other (as is often done). There are exceptions - I know von Bulow recommends arpeggiating the separate chords that open his edition of Cramer's etudes as one, with good reason.

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#443020 - 07/19/05 02:11 PM Re: Arpeggio sign
bach enthusiast Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/02/05
Posts: 847
Loc: Tucson Arizona
yes, simultaneously as in chopin's op.10-no.11 study.
_________________________
JOHN

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#443021 - 07/19/05 08:29 PM Re: Arpeggio sign
Gyro Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/24/05
Posts: 4533
I believe that an arpeggiated chord is ALWAYS
supposed to be played notes-separately from the
bottom up, otherwise it makes no musical
sense. What is such a chord played rt. and
lt. hands simultaneously? Just a mishmash of
sound that wouldn't even have a function in some
avant-garde modern composition. This is true
whether or not the wiggly line is continuous
or not--you can't really make the wiggly line
continuous without creating a printing mess.
And if the rolled chord is only in
the rt. hand, with a straight chord in the lt.,
then you play the lt. hand chord simultaneously
with the last note of the arpeggiated chord,
rolled from the bottom up.

However, what happens is that people play the
rt. and lt. hands simultaneously because it's
easier and faster that way, and in fast
passages it seems that you wouldn't have
enough time to roll the chord in the proper
way. And the sound this way is good enough
so that you can get by with doing it this way,
but actually all such chords should be rolled
from bottom up.

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#443022 - 07/19/05 09:21 PM Re: Arpeggio sign
apple* Offline


Registered: 01/01/03
Posts: 19862
Loc: Kansas
 Quote:
Originally posted by Gyro:
I believe that an arpeggiated chord is ALWAYS
supposed to be played notes-separately from the
bottom up, otherwise it makes no musical
sense. What is such a chord played rt. and
lt. hands simultaneously? Just a mishmash of
sound that wouldn't even have a function in some
avant-garde modern composition. This is true
whether or not the wiggly line is continuous
or not--you can't really make the wiggly line
continuous without creating a printing mess.
[/b]
Why the different notations then?
_________________________
accompanist/organist.. a non-MTNA teacher to a few

love and peace, ├Ľun (apple in Estonian)

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#443023 - 07/20/05 01:21 PM Re: Arpeggio sign
Gyro Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/24/05
Posts: 4533
Because it's easier and neater to print the
wiggly lines just in front of each chord,
instead of continuous from bottom up. It saves
ink and typesetting work for the printer
and results in a less cluttered score.
For example, in the Chopin
etude op. 10 no. 11, which is 4 pages of
arpeggiated chords, running each wiggly line
continuous from bottom up for each set of
chords would just clutter up an already
cluttered-up score, so they just printed the
wiggly lines in front of the rt. and lt. hand
chords, with the understanding that you roll
them from bottom up.

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#443024 - 07/20/05 01:43 PM Re: Arpeggio sign
jpw101 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/17/05
Posts: 631
Loc: UK
But the rolls in Op. 10 no 11 are meant to be executed simultaneously, not consecutively.

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#443025 - 07/20/05 01:58 PM Re: Arpeggio sign
Gyro Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/24/05
Posts: 4533
I disagree. That's the easier way to do it, but
the proper way is to roll them from the bottom
up. That's the only way that makes musical sense.

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#443026 - 07/20/05 02:03 PM Re: Arpeggio sign
jpw101 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/17/05
Posts: 631
Loc: UK
Every recording of this piece I've heard rolls them simultaneously. I'd be grateful if you could direct me to one that rolls them consecutively, should one exist. There should be plenty, if that really is the way they should be played, right?

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#443027 - 07/20/05 02:18 PM Re: Arpeggio sign
Kreisler Offline



Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 13817
Loc: Iowa City, IA
Most composers and musicologists I know would disagree with Gyro. There is a difference in the two notations, and the two should be and are often played differently.
_________________________
"If we continually try to force a child to do what he is afraid to do, he will become more timid, and will use his brains and energy, not to explore the unknown, but to find ways to avoid the pressures we put on him." (John Holt)

www.pianoped.com
www.youtube.com/user/UIPianoPed

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#443028 - 07/20/05 02:29 PM Re: Arpeggio sign
Gyro Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/24/05
Posts: 4533
Chopin would have played them from bottom up.
They sound more musical that way. I cannot believe
the ultimate pianist would write the ultimate
rolled chord study and then take the easy
way out playing it.

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#443029 - 07/20/05 10:29 PM Re: Arpeggio sign
pepper Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/13/01
Posts: 171
Loc: SF CA
If the wiggly line is unbroken from bottom to top, the notes are played separately from bottom to top. If the wiggly line is broken between bass and treble clefs, the hands play simultaneously

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#443030 - 07/21/05 03:25 PM Re: Arpeggio sign
prokofiev Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/20/05
Posts: 388
Loc: California
So I guess they should be played simultaneously?

Are the first note and last note of each chord played at the same time, that is, both hands start and end at the same time?
_________________________
prok

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#443031 - 07/21/05 04:31 PM Re: Arpeggio sign
snap_apple Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/21/03
Posts: 710
 Quote:
Originally posted by Gyro:
I believe that an arpeggiated chord is ALWAYS
supposed to be played notes-separately from the
bottom up, otherwise it makes no musical
sense. What is such a chord played rt. and
lt. hands simultaneously? Just a mishmash of
sound that wouldn't even have a function in some
avant-garde modern composition. This is true
whether or not the wiggly line is continuous
or not--you can't really make the wiggly line
continuous without creating a printing mess.
And if the rolled chord is only in
the rt. hand, with a straight chord in the lt.,
then you play the lt. hand chord simultaneously
with the last note of the arpeggiated chord,
rolled from the bottom up.

However, what happens is that people play the
rt. and lt. hands simultaneously because it's
easier and faster that way, and in fast
passages it seems that you wouldn't have
enough time to roll the chord in the proper
way. And the sound this way is good enough
so that you can get by with doing it this way,
but actually all such chords should be rolled
from bottom up. [/b]
Are you serious? There is a big difference between the two notations. For dramatic purposes, for articulative purposes, for color purposes, for rhythmic purposes....There is a major difference between the two notations. This idea just doesn't make any sense.

How can you say one is more musical then the other. Depends on the context...a mash of sound? I may want a mash of sound...I love mashes of sound. I want that bubbly, unclear, boyant effect of rolling two chords together so I'm gonna write it differently then if I want one long, sweeping, clear rolled chord.

....

ah

 Quote:


Chopin would have played them from bottom up.
They sound more musical that way. I cannot believe
the ultimate pianist would write the ultimate
rolled chord study and then take the easy
way out playing it.
[/b]

.......I don't understand this at all

he's speaking for Chopin...the etude wouldn't even make sense if the chords were rolled from bottom up.

The whole point of the etude is to teach the pianist how to coordinate hand movement involving different figurations together (long stretches in the left vs. short in the right)...about hand displacement at quick tempos. the tempos marked 76 beats per minute, you would never be able to play the piece at that speed nor would you EVER be able to get the allegretto feel that Chopin wants by rolling from bottom up.

This piece is about being able to play 4 against 3 in a clear way...it's about strumming the piano like a guitar.

everything about the way the etude is designed indicates Chopin wants the pianist to effectively be able to roll two chords together because learning how to do that will strenghten your technique in many, many ways. Chopin knew exactly what was to be gained from this etude thats why it's written like it is.

oh my God if you played it any other way the entire etude would be ruined, nothing would make sense.

Of course the notation means two different things.

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#443032 - 07/21/05 04:49 PM Re: Arpeggio sign
8ude Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 2050
The two notations are different to represent two different techniques. Both arpeggio techniques (simultaneous and continuous) are valid in different circumstances, there obviously needs to be an unambiguous way to notate each of them.
_________________________
What you are is an accident of birth. What I am, I am through my own efforts. There have been a thousand princes and there will be a thousand more. There is one Beethoven.

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#443033 - 07/21/05 08:56 PM Re: Arpeggio sign
prokofiev Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/20/05
Posts: 388
Loc: California
So in the Chopin 10/11, if there are the same number of notes in the two hands, should they be played at the same time on both hands?
_________________________
prok

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#443034 - 07/21/05 09:46 PM Re: Arpeggio sign
pepper Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/13/01
Posts: 171
Loc: SF CA
Don't think about it, just do it.

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#443035 - 07/21/05 10:34 PM Re: Arpeggio sign
8ude Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 2050
I've never formally studied this piece myself, but I'd tend to agree with pepper. I don't think the point of this etude is to perfectly match up 3 against 4 or some other division. The arpeggios weren't meant to be played in a measured way, so I'd say pepper hit it on the head - just do it and don't worry about perfectly matching up the notes.
_________________________
What you are is an accident of birth. What I am, I am through my own efforts. There have been a thousand princes and there will be a thousand more. There is one Beethoven.

Top
#443036 - 07/22/05 05:03 AM Re: Arpeggio sign
snap_apple Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/21/03
Posts: 710
 Quote:
Originally posted by 8ude:
I've never formally studied this piece myself, but I'd tend to agree with pepper. I don't think the point of this etude is to perfectly match up 3 against 4 or some other division. The arpeggios weren't meant to be played in a measured way, so I'd say pepper hit it on the head - just do it and don't worry about perfectly matching up the notes. [/b]
no there is definently a difference if you take the time to actually give a rhythmic clarity to the rolled chords.

Start so to coordinate hand movements and to get a clear sound out of the piano.

It's like any high speed passage....you start slow, hell, be mathmatical about it at first. Get a very clear aural understanding of how the chord sounds and then speed it up. The level of detail and intense concentration you put into lining up your movements and your notes will show itself even at a very high speed roll. Then you allow yourself to feel it, and it will feel solid and crystal clear rather then some random guess.

It's tough but that is part of the etude.

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