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I'm almost finished with Liszt's first transcendental etude and I must say, I am extremely surprised with myself at how quickly I picked up the piece and how well I can already play the parts I know. I'm playing Liszt, my dream is beginning to come true! Now, my question is, what kind of technical barriers are being broken here in terms of learning a transcendental etude? I realize that the number one is one of the easiest in the set, but I still am finding it quite challenging and have broken a sweat while practicing it. I can play some of the parts quite quickly, so I know that I am technically able to play this piece. Apparently all those arpeggio exercises are paying off! When I play it I feel like a master at the keyboard, but I know I am not. I'm thinking of learning Paysage next, and then number two which looks to be extremely challenging. I'll probably go and finish up a few Chopin etudes and a Rachmaninoff prelude before I try to play it (maybe sooner because I love it so much). I'll post a recording once I get Preludio finished and polished up. In case your wondering, I've put the Pathetique on the backburner for now because I need a break from Beethoven. I'll pick it back up after I've finished this etude. How would one be ranked technically after this etude is mastered? Seriously, I'm surprising myself at how well I can execute some of the passages. I recorded it here: http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=96757062
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Originally posted by Reaper978: [QB[...] how well I can already play the parts I know. [...] I can play some of the parts quite quickly, so I know that I am technically able to play this piece.[...]I feel like a master at the keyboard, but I know I am not. [...] I'll probably go and finish up a few Chopin etudes and a Rachmaninoff prelude before I try to play it (maybe sooner because I love it so much).
In case your wondering, I've put the Pathetique on the backburner for now because I need a break from Beethoven. I'll pick it back up after I've finished this etude.
How would one be ranked technically after this etude is mastered? Seriously, I'm surprising myself at how well I can execute some of the passages. [/QB] Excerpting comments from your post and juxtaposing them, I wonder two things : Apart from "the parts [you] know" and those you can "play quite quickly" what remains for you to do on this Etude? How far are you from mastering it? One judges a performance on the integration of the parts into the whole and on the artistic effect that the whole creates. I'm not sure what you mean, exactly, by "ranking," but I don't think that one could "rank" any pianist on the basis of having completed this one Etude; whatever ranking one might give would depend more on your ability to play well a collection of pieces of standard repertoire, this Etude included, if you like. Secondly: If you were my student I would be concerned about whether or not you have an organized programme of study. Your post suggests that you are not sure where you are going with your repertoire : you are going to abandon the Beethoven for the moment - but you might get back to it - and you are "thinking of learning" Paysages, or you'll "go and finish up a few Chopin Etudes" or a Rachmaninoff Prelude. It sounds as though you need some focus. I'll look forward to hearing the recording of the Etude once it is posted. Regards,
BruceD - - - - - Estonia 190
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BruceD gave you some Very Important Things to think about.
I don't want to detract anything from your obvious enthusiasm for the music - that is a really good thing!
But I will offer one other comment you might wish to consider.
In these études there is a risk of just pushing down the notes - especially in Preludio.
In these études, pushing down the notes in tempo correctly can be quite an accomplishment! But you have to get beyond that.
Now you have to decide - what does this étude mean? What idea, what emotion is Liszt trying to convey? And how do you intend to communicate that to the audience?
If you fail in that, then you give more ammunition to those who think these pieces are nothing more than empty, showy excercises.
You have to rise above - transcend - the technique, and make music.
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My take on Preludio is that it's simply a prelude to the whole set - a way of warming up, if you will. It's rarely (if ever) performed on its own, and doesn't really make much sense out of context. It's a good finger exercise, and owes something to the Etudes of old (Cramer, etc.) but is too insubstantial to work on its own.
Some advice - give #2 a very wide berth, it's VERY difficult. Harder than it sounds, harder than it looks. One of the toughest, even though it's quite short.
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what remains for you to do on this Etude? The final eight measures on the second page. If you were my student I would be concerned about whether or not you have an organized programme of study. Your post suggests that you are not sure where you are going with your repertoire : you are going to abandon the Beethoven for the moment - but you might get back to it - and you are "thinking of learning" Paysages, or you'll "go and finish up a few Chopin Etudes" or a Rachmaninoff Prelude. It sounds as though you need some focus. I do very much intend to finish the Beethoven sonata after I am finished learning this etude. As your attitude shows, I very much need to do so. For clarity, I needed a break from Beethoven as the first movement is a bit long for me to psychologically handle at the moment, so I broke it up into two parts, the first repeat, where I then went on and began the Liszt etude, and the second half of the movement, which I WILL finish. As for the rest of the pieces I mentioned, I'm simply laying out my options. Now you have to decide - what does this étude mean? What idea, what emotion is Liszt trying to convey? And how do you intend to communicate that to the audience? I do hope that my own performance will not be a stale, metronomic one. Sometimes I end up having trouble with the opposite being true; I try to play it at performance level while I'm practicing, which is just not possible. This is one of the reasons I picked this piece, it's short and more manageable to complete so I can then go on and spend a lot of time figuring out ways to give it life and I'll have the technique covered. Some advice - give #2 a very wide berth, it's VERY difficult. Harder than it sounds, harder than it looks. One of the toughest, even though it's quite short. Thank you for the pointer.
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I agree with jpw101 too.
Preludio is like the 'front door' to the entire set; I've always performed it with others in the set.
Yes, skip #2 for now.
Paysage is the logical next step.
Preludio and Paysage make a nice short set.
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^Heh, I always thought number one and two make an even better set. But yes, number two is well beyond my reach and will be for some time.
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Don't let my comments dampen your enthusiasm for this piece - I'm sure they won-t - but it seems to me that you have a good way to go before you get this to performance level.
On my copy of the score, the tempo is marked Presto with a suggested metronome marking of 160 to the quarter note. It seems to me that you're considerably short of that tempo. Moreover, most of the first page is indicated poco a poco crescendo ed accelerando . Instead, when you get to bars 7 and 8, you actually slow down instead of continuing to accelerate.
I don't have any sense of energico nor any sense of direction. The first page, after the introductory flourishes, should be a headlong rush to the fff chord in bar 12. You need to work on getting the notes sufficiently mastered that you can do that.
Similarly, in the second section, marked non troppo presto the arpeggios need work, as you observed. Again, this section is a continuous crescendo from bar 17 to the end, but your rendition loses momentum because of your difficulty with the arpeggios. Even though it is non troppo presto it needs to move much more relenlessly right to the end.
Finally, make sure that there is no space between the "grace" note LH four-note arpeggio preceding the final chord. Those four notes and the final chord should sound like a door slamming - I can't think of another analogy.
Regards,
BruceD - - - - - Estonia 190
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Much appreciated BruceD, I'll see what I can do after my technique for the piece speeds up.
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Hi everyone. Someone please give me the exact meaning of "transcendante"?
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Here's a sample of the ending : Ovchinikov Click on Track 1 for a 30-second Windows Media Player or Real Player. Regards,
BruceD - - - - - Estonia 190
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Originally posted by Liszt_BG: Hi everyone. Someone please give me the exact meaning of "transcendante"? Transcendant is a french word which means refers to something as being "superior", "master in its domain" or something/one that is above the rest in the given domain Kant also refered to "idées transcendantes" or "trenscendentals ideas" as ideas that derive directly from pure reasoning. Translated from the "dictionaire de lacadémie francaise" http://portail.atilf.fr/cgi-bin/dico1look.pl?strippedhw=transcendant
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Originally posted by BruceD: Here's a sample of the ending :
Ovchinikov
Click on Track 1 for a 30-second Windows Media Player or Real Player.
Regards, Surely any poetry that could be found there is lost when the ending is blown through with such rapidity?
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I believe you're right, Reaper978. I would recommend Bolet, Restani or Cziffra.
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May I ask, am I doing anything right in my recording? Any positive feedback?
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Reaper978:
I'm not sure what sort of "poetry" you're looking for in the Preludio. Even though the last section is marked non troppo presto, the context of the Etude is still presto and the last few bars are marked crescendo right down to the antepenultimae bar (fff, and then the tempo is eased up slightly by poco rallentando .
Regards,
BruceD - - - - - Estonia 190
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Originally posted by BruceD: Reaper978:
I'm not sure what sort of "poetry" you're looking for in the Preludio. Even though the last section is marked non troppo presto, the context of the Etude is still presto and the last few bars are marked crescendo right down to the antepenultimae bar ([b]fff, and then the tempo is eased up slightly by poco rallentando .
Regards, [/b] Mm, there is a misconception generally that it is not possible to play both musically and fast. As after all, fast music is just slow music sped up... I don't think this piece is really mean't to leave a lasting impression. As it has been said in this thread (or in your other, I can't remember), it is literally a prelude to the 'meat' of the Etudes, and should be taken that way. It is barely a standalone piece, in my opinion.
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Originally posted by Reaper978: May I ask, am I doing anything right in my recording? Any positive feedback? Sure...it's pretty clean and you don't hide behind the pedal. The quality of your playing is rather uniform throughout, so it seems you have the patience it takes to learn the entire piece and then bring it up to speed (as opposed to all those people who can play the first bar really fast and then fall apart - there are a LOT of those lazy people out there, and you're not one of them.) The problems you have are easily identified - tempo, keeping the passagework even, and bringing out the tempo and dynamic indications in the score. As for tempo, you're doing the right thing - you're not trying to go too fast too soon. That's good, because you're not sacrificing accuracy for speed and as it does start to go faster, it will do so naturally and not sound forced. As for the passagework - keep doing what you're doing. Practice in different rhythmic groupings and different accent patterns. Again, since you're not hiding behind the pedal or forcing the tempo, this will come. It could take some time, but it will come. A Mozart sonata wouldn't be a bad idea - I think you'd play Mozart very well. (K. 283 comes to mind, or maybe 332.) As for the things in the score - as you continue recording your progress and getting input from people, you'll get a feel for what comes across and what doesn't. So basically what I'm saying is, while you might not sound like a great pianist at this point, you definitely sound like the kind of student who could become one.
"If we continually try to force a child to do what he is afraid to do, he will become more timid, and will use his brains and energy, not to explore the unknown, but to find ways to avoid the pressures we put on him." (John Holt) www.pianoped.comwww.youtube.com/user/UIPianoPed
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So basically what I'm saying is, while you might not sound like a great pianist at this point, you definitely sound like the kind of student who could become one. Thanks Kreisler! I'm not sure what sort of "poetry" you're looking for in the Preludio. Even though the last section is marked non troppo presto, the context of the Etude is still presto and the last few bars are marked crescendo right down to the antepenultimae bar (fff, and then the tempo is eased up slightly by poco rallentando . One could interpret all of these things in different ways. That's why we have different pianists, and that's why everyone doesn't sound exactly the same.
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