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#448593 - 09/03/07 09:05 PM Re: Valentina Lisitsa - Show Off!
hopinmad Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/07
Posts: 1001
Loc: Eryri/Manchester
I think Lang Lang, and Valentina Lisitsa, are amazing pianists!!!
_________________________
Patience's the best teacher, and time the best critic. - F.F.Chopin

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#448594 - 09/03/07 09:57 PM Re: Valentina Lisitsa - Show Off!
Mr_Kitty Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/07
Posts: 667
Loc: Toronto
.....you probably like Liberace too
Rachmaninoff broke the opening chords in op 18 once. Once. He wanted to see how it would sound. It didn't sound good. If he wanted them broken, he would have indicated that in the score. He didn't.
I'm not saying if you break those chords you go to Hell... all I'm saying is your opening of op 18 will be lame sauce.

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#448595 - 09/03/07 10:00 PM Re: Valentina Lisitsa - Show Off!
pianojerome Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 9868
 Quote:
Originally posted by Mr_Kitty:
Rachmaninoff broke the opening chords in op 18 once. Once.[/b]
How many recordings have you heard of Rachmaninov playing this concerto?
_________________________
Sam

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#448596 - 09/03/07 10:05 PM Re: Valentina Lisitsa - Show Off!
pianojerome Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 9868
 Quote:
Originally posted by Mr_Kitty:
He wanted to see how it would sound. It didn't sound good. If he wanted them broken, he would have indicated that in the score. He didn't.[/b]
If he tried it -- just to see how it would sound -- and he didn't like it, then why would he release it on a commercial recording?
_________________________
Sam

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#448597 - 09/03/07 10:07 PM Re: Valentina Lisitsa - Show Off!
pianojerome Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 9868
 Quote:
Originally posted by Mr_Kitty:
If he wanted them broken, he would have indicated that in the score. He didn't. [/b]
Maybe he didn't have a preference -- so he just wrote the chords, with the understanding that there are multiple ways of playing them (such as the way he played in his recording).
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Sam

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#448598 - 09/03/07 10:10 PM Re: Valentina Lisitsa - Show Off!
pianojerome Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 9868
 Quote:
Originally posted by Mr_Kitty:
I'm not saying if you break those chords you go to Hell... [/b]
You will if you can't fix them. Duct tape should do the trick.

What's generations of later pianists going to do with broken chords?
_________________________
Sam

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#448599 - 09/03/07 10:12 PM Re: Valentina Lisitsa - Show Off!
pianojerome Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 9868
 Quote:
Originally posted by Mr_Kitty:
all I'm saying is your opening of op 18 will be lame sauce. [/b]
I much prefer barbecue sauce. We should throw in some vodka, too, for Sergei.
_________________________
Sam

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#448600 - 09/03/07 10:38 PM Re: Valentina Lisitsa - Show Off!
Loki Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/09/05
Posts: 1035
Loc: Texas
sam you post-hog.
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Houston, Texas

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#448601 - 09/03/07 11:09 PM Re: Valentina Lisitsa - Show Off!
argerichfan Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/15/06
Posts: 8890
Loc: Pacific Northwest, US.
 Quote:
Originally posted by Mr_Kitty:
.....you probably like Liberace too
Careful Kittyboy, Liberace has his fans on this board, although I do not count myself amongst them, nor -now that I think of it- have I ever knowingly met one.
_________________________
Jason

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#448602 - 09/03/07 11:12 PM Re: Valentina Lisitsa - Show Off!
Gabriel Galvao Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 09/03/07
Posts: 8
Loc: Natal
I love her playing style. People like to trash-talk a lot about new pianists. I think the general trend is "I envy her technique".

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#448603 - 09/04/07 03:05 AM Re: Valentina Lisitsa - Show Off!
Mr_Kitty Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/07
Posts: 667
Loc: Toronto
lol sure I'll respond to a good challenge. My dad's asleep so I can't practice... why not.
I'm sure there are many people on this forum who think Liberace was the greatest pianist who ever lived. That's too bad.

pianojerome-I'm sorry you like lame sauce-personally I prefer a nice bechamel. I really enjoyed your pun on broken chords lol. Duct tape is indeed a potent force in the world. So is vodka!

all I know is I don't envy Lisitsa's technique.

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#448604 - 09/04/07 09:52 AM Re: Valentina Lisitsa - Show Off!
Jimmo Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/31/07
Posts: 67
Loc: United Kingdom
Sorry to break the rhythm of the thread, as I've been busy with work and I'm catching up on the forum...just saw that Rach Etude referred to earlier.

What incredible precision! Can't say the piece touches the heart musically, in my opinion, (sorry Rach old boy) but as a study in precision this is an outstanding performance. Wow. I feel like such a fat-fingered fumbling buffoon after watching that \:\)
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#448605 - 09/04/07 03:32 PM Re: Valentina Lisitsa - Show Off!
timbo77 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/24/07
Posts: 268
Loc: Singapore
pianojerome: in relation to what is written in the score, I meant (and thought I wrote!) that the score is not necessarily to be slavishly followed. However, when it comes to a composer's recording of his own work and it differs from the score, what does that mean?

For my part, I don't think it's designed to be an emendation of or improvement to the score. It's an interpretation. I think Mr-Kitty is plain wrong to suggest Rachmaninoff tried broken chords, didn't like the effect and so didn't put it in the score. Rachmaninoff was well-known to have performed works in the same manner time and again once he had worked out the interpretation in his head. He was not one for spontaneous experiments in recording. It is also inconsistent with the fact that Rachmaninoff recorded several takes of the second concerto which he rejected, so if he didn't like the effect, he would have abandoned it.

But breaking a chord is also different from changing notes. It is the sort of thing that need not be written into the score. So many pianists break chords for dramatic effect. Rachmaninoff was equally entitled to without it affecting the integrity of his own score.

In addition, it is worth bearing in mind the performance practice of Rachmaninoff's generation of pianists, which was to tinker with the score in the pursuit of interpreting a piece. For example, Rachmaninoff's treatment of dynamics in the Chopin Bb minor piano sonata and his own works (for example the second movements of the second and third concertos). He also added or changed notes to a couple of his preludes in recordings, but they are not followed today. He wasn't right or wrong: those was his interpretations (though admittedly very compelling ones given that he wrote the pieces).

This is different from the technical challenge of not being able to reach a tenth, but my view is that such a technical challenge does not disentitle you to play the piece. There are some exceptions (for example some Liszt which would sound daft if you don't have the hands for it), but musicality is generally more important than hand span.

ecm: I'm so glad someone shares my view of Lang Lang! I thought I was the only one. I fail to understand the hype. His Carnegie Hall CD was terrible. Sorry to all the Lang Lang fans out there, but it seems to me to be a case of marketing over substance. [timbo dives for cover]

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#448606 - 09/04/07 03:40 PM Re: Valentina Lisitsa - Show Off!
Mr_Kitty Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/07
Posts: 667
Loc: Toronto
Lang Lang is incredibly talented. He is a great showman in the tradition of Liberace. Perhaps one day he will become a great artist as well.

I like the opening chords solid, as written. Does that make me some kind of evildoer?

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#448607 - 09/04/07 04:06 PM Re: Valentina Lisitsa - Show Off!
argerichfan Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/15/06
Posts: 8890
Loc: Pacific Northwest, US.
 Quote:
Originally posted by timbo77:
ecm: I'm so glad someone shares my view of Lang Lang! I thought I was the only one. I fail to understand the hype.
You and ecm are not the only ones on this board.
_________________________
Jason

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#448608 - 09/04/07 04:13 PM Re: Valentina Lisitsa - Show Off!
argerichfan Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/15/06
Posts: 8890
Loc: Pacific Northwest, US.
 Quote:
Originally posted by Mr_Kitty:
I like the opening chords solid, as written. Does that make me some kind of evildoer?
No, not at all, and don't let anyone tell you that.

If I prefer to break the opening chords, that does not in any way imply "rolling" them, just taking the bottom F as sort of an upbeat- like Rachmaninov did. I can comfortably take the first chord unbroken, but the others get a bit dodgy. Rachmaninov, obviously, had no such concerns.
_________________________
Jason

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#448609 - 09/04/07 09:41 PM Re: Valentina Lisitsa - Show Off!
Mr_Kitty Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/07
Posts: 667
Loc: Toronto
it's just so juicey to take all 8 solid \:D
give it a try. And then the 9th chord (C-) which HAS to be broken is that much more special.

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#448610 - 09/04/07 10:16 PM Re: Valentina Lisitsa - Show Off!
hopinmad Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/07
Posts: 1001
Loc: Eryri/Manchester
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Mr_Kitty:
.....you probably like Liberace too

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

What do you mean?
_________________________
Patience's the best teacher, and time the best critic. - F.F.Chopin

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#448611 - 09/04/07 10:21 PM Re: Valentina Lisitsa - Show Off!
Bassio Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/24/03
Posts: 2480
Loc: Alexandria, Egypt
 Quote:
Originally posted by pianojerome:
 Quote:
Originally posted by Mr_Kitty:
all I'm saying is your opening of op 18 will be lame sauce. [/b]
I much prefer barbecue sauce. We should throw in some vodka, too, for Sergei. [/b]
No, he wasn't that type of guy.

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#448612 - 09/04/07 10:28 PM Re: Valentina Lisitsa - Show Off!
Bassio Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/24/03
Posts: 2480
Loc: Alexandria, Egypt
 Quote:
Originally posted by timbo77:

For my part, I don't think it's designed to be an emendation of or improvement to the score. [/b]
I agree. He certainly was the type of guy to encourage interpretations of others playing his own works, although different than his own.

And we all know his anecdote with Scriabin when he was playing a Scriabin piece and Scriabin told him "It does not work this way" \:D

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#448613 - 09/05/07 12:05 PM Re: Valentina Lisitsa - Show Off!
timbo77 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/24/07
Posts: 268
Loc: Singapore
Mr_Kitty: there's definitely nothing wrong with you preferring to play the chords without breaking them (so do I, for that matter) but your earlier post indicated that breaking them was wrong because Rachmaninoff did not indicate it in the score.

Argerichfan: so no doubt you'd agree that Lang Lang is a far cry from Sergio Thiempo, who I heard on Saturday playing the Chopin first concerto. \:\)

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#448614 - 09/05/07 12:54 PM Re: Valentina Lisitsa - Show Off!
argerichfan Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/15/06
Posts: 8890
Loc: Pacific Northwest, US.
 Quote:
Originally posted by timbo77:
Argerichfan: so no doubt you'd agree that Lang Lang is a far cry from Sergio Thiempo, who I heard on Saturday playing the Chopin first concerto. \:\)
Most definitely agreed.
_________________________
Jason

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#448615 - 09/07/07 11:41 PM Re: Valentina Lisitsa - Show Off!
Cultor Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/25/07
Posts: 342
Loc: BsAs
Valentina plays extraordinarily (the broken cords subject is a minor one), but she’s neither evil or magic. She's not a witch, as Argerich (sorry the rhyme, it's not mine). That’s important to me when I hear a woman playing. And when I say evil, I mean not a personal evilness but an artistic one, as an artist must remain morally unrestricted.

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#448616 - 09/08/07 06:18 AM Re: Valentina Lisitsa - Show Off!
argerichfan Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/15/06
Posts: 8890
Loc: Pacific Northwest, US.
 Quote:
Originally posted by Cultor:
She's not a witch, as Argerich (sorry the rhyme, it's not mine).
"Witch" is a rather odd word choice, or perhaps you were referencing her inner witch?
_________________________
Jason

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#448617 - 09/08/07 01:17 PM Re: Valentina Lisitsa - Show Off!
BruceD Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 18068
Loc: Victoria, BC
 Quote:
Originally posted by argerichfan:
 Quote:
Originally posted by Cultor:
She's not a witch, as Argerich (sorry the rhyme, it's not mine).
"Witch" is a rather odd word choice, or perhaps you were referencing her inner witch? [/b]
It's hard to tell which witch is which!

Cheers!
_________________________
BruceD
- - - - -
Estonia 190

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#448618 - 09/08/07 01:26 PM Re: Valentina Lisitsa - Show Off!
pianojerome Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 9868
 Quote:
Originally posted by Cultor:
And when I say evil, I mean not a personal evilness but an artistic one, as an artist must remain morally unrestricted. [/b]
What would constitute musical morality?
_________________________
Sam

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#448619 - 09/08/07 03:06 PM Re: Valentina Lisitsa - Show Off!
Cultor Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/25/07
Posts: 342
Loc: BsAs
I mean ‘witch’ as Hecate goddess, in the sense of magic, ritual, obscure and charming not the posterior ‘heretical’ significance. It’s of course an inner daimon or genius but in some way connected to forces of nature that are not always rational.
Amorality in music means to me that a musician must been able to represent all kind of human feelings unrestrictedly. Even evilness if necessary.

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#448620 - 12/26/07 11:42 AM Re: Valentina Lisitsa - Show Off!
LawrenceLK Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 12/26/07
Posts: 4
I joined this forum to add to this thread. I support and follow Valentina Lisitsa, I have seen and once again am about to see her perform live and after a lifetime of witnessing concert pianists live and seeing one develop within my extended family I state - and will defend my position - that Valentina is divinely gifted musically and technically. There is much more to her than speed and accuracy - the world is full of fast, accurate pianists but after just one afternoon's exposure to Valentina on Youtube watching a wide spread of composers played by her I was totally captivated. From that point on I have watched her legion of adoring fans give her the praises she deserves on www.myspace.com/valentinalisitsa


Please also look at just one article that shares my sentiments.
http://www.mrs.umn.edu/register/article.php?index=0&issue=4§ion=ae&volume=17

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#448621 - 12/27/07 04:00 AM Re: Valentina Lisitsa - Show Off!
wr Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 7859
I've heard that Rachmaninoff helped at least one small-handed person rewrite those opening chords in the 2nd to make them playable (instead of, as was suggested in another post, telling the person to play a different concerto). Too bad he didn't provide an ossia in the score. Maybe we should just be grateful that he didn't write a lot more stuff unreachable-by-regular-hands than he did.

And, yes, judging from the various YouTube clips, Lisitsa is not a very interesting musician, although she can play way fast. Too robotic and too reliant on technique effects for my taste. But I'll admit that when I was much younger, I might have felt differently. Funny how time changes one's perspective...

But why are there so many these proponents of insubstantial virtuosity all over the place right now? It's practically like the middle of the 19th century is being replayed all over again. These virtuosi are just crawling out of the woodwork, and seem to have found an audience of extremely avid fans. It's really very strange.

Although I understand the "wow" factor (and enjoy it a lot myself), I also think that there are other factors in music that are at least as important. Make that "more important". It really is disturbing to me that a lot of people seem not to have any idea at all of why high-level technical prowess together with just a rudimentary, barely cultivated musicality just doesn't add up to "great".

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#448622 - 12/27/07 04:49 AM Re: Valentina Lisitsa - Show Off!
Jeff135 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/09/05
Posts: 912
Loc: Oregon
I am not a big fan of Lisitsa.

Although I don't agree with how the OP said it, I do believe that her interpretations and musicality are often a bit lacking, sometimes in place for technical bravura.

I've seen her live a number of times and every time I was left disappointed. Her Rach 2nd that I saw was quite poor. I was disappointed to hear that Gutierrez, who was supposed to play it, had canceled. After I left the hall, I was more disappointed than before. Her performance was underwhelming to say the least. I often found her phrasing to be a bit sloppy and she seemed to have trouble producing enough sound to compete with the orchestra.

Yes, she has many achievements. Yes, she has a very large repertoire (although it is only average compared to other major touring artists). But, in my humble opinion, there are so many better pianists out there that I don't believe she has quite yet reached the plateau as one of the greats.

That's just my opinion though.
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