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#449747 - 07/27/07 12:16 AM Wunderkind
Mr_Kitty Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/07
Posts: 667
Loc: Toronto
Anyone who doesn't care about virtuosity, hit "back" right now.
Ingolf Wunder. Just saw his vid of Chopin Op. 10/2
Rediculous. How did he get it so fast?
What a monster. Can anyone post a link of a pianist with greater facility? Lol don't even think about saying Tiempo or Kissin or even the great masters like Ogdon or Hamelin-they just weren't inhuman like that. I don't even think uber-advanced aliens from another universe could play like him. Everything he plays is just.....
he belongs on a freak show or something.
k I'm going to go practice.
any thoughts?

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#449748 - 07/27/07 12:38 AM Re: Wunderkind
argerichfan Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/15/06
Posts: 8936
Loc: Pacific Northwest, US.
 Quote:
Originally posted by Mr_Kitty:
How did he get it so fast?
Well, with all due respect, mate, that's the tempo it is usually taken at- cf Pollini, Browning, Askenazy and Perahia. I haven't heard Anievas, though one of our primo members -and pianist par excellence- speaks very highly of this long out of print recording.

For the sheer thrill of speed, try this . The sound and picture quality are bloody awful, but you'll get the idea.

It is actually a supreme performance. When not gawking at the right hand passagework, notice that powerful left hand.
_________________________
Jason

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#449749 - 07/27/07 01:31 AM Re: Wunderkind
Mr_Kitty Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/07
Posts: 667
Loc: Toronto
lol argerichfan. Argerich is doubtlessly one of the greatest pianists of the century and has an impeccable technique-my teacher studied alongside her with Maria Curcio and the stories he tells me are unbelieveable. But that prelude is not as difficult as the etude.
the tempo it's usually taken at is quarter=144.
That was not 144.
Do you play this etude? lol I do and let me tell you, I am STRUGGLING right now to play it without mistakes at 144-and that's alot slower than this.
Obviously Wunderbread has a long, LONG way to go artistically, not to mention several decades, until he can be on par with Martha.
Of the recordings you mentioned, the only ones which i HAVE are Parahia and Ashkenazy and both collections are among the best. However, Wunder has beefier chops for sure. Tomorrow I'm going to check his metrinome speed \:\)

I don't usually care about superfluous virtuosity-but Wunder just packed a very beefy punch.

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#449750 - 07/27/07 01:53 AM Re: Wunderkind
BruceD Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 18292
Loc: Victoria, BC
re: Chopin, Op 10, No 2 :

Wunder takes it at 176
Perahia, at 132
Anievas, at 144
Berezovsky, at 144
Zayas, at 160

Well, speed isn't everything ...
_________________________
BruceD
- - - - -
Estonia 190

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#449751 - 07/27/07 02:10 AM Re: Wunderkind
Mr_Kitty Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/07
Posts: 667
Loc: Toronto
lol someone has already done it for me! thank you Bruce.
176.

Someone should give him a speeding ticket or something...

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#449752 - 07/27/07 02:17 AM Re: Wunderkind
argerichfan Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/15/06
Posts: 8936
Loc: Pacific Northwest, US.
 Quote:
Originally posted by BruceD:
Well, speed isn't everything ...
Generally no, though the Chopin Bb minor Prelude sounds a mite bit flacid when not taken up to speed. This is certainly the case with the Alkan Etudes.

Moritz Rosenthal had a moment of bitchiness: "those that don't think technique important, simply don't possess it!".

Ah, and this is interesting: I didn't realize two well known pianistic figures, Robert Goldsand and Charles Rosen, both studied with Rosenthal. Both of them might seem to be the antithesis of their teacher's temperment...

I've read plenty of Rosen's writings, but Goldsand is only a name to me. I do know, however, that he taught Harris Goldsmith, a well known critic and pianist. Didn't someone on the forum mention the other day a recording Goldsmith made of the Waldstein?

But with due respect -from what I have been told- Mr. Goldsmith had a complete and utter fixation with Toscanini and Schnabel. He evidently couldn't review anything -piano or orchestral- without invoking at some point one of those two names.
_________________________
Jason

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#449753 - 07/27/07 02:20 AM Re: Wunderkind
BruceD Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 18292
Loc: Victoria, BC
I was quite impressed with the Op 10 No 2, not only with the speed but also with the almost gossamer lightness of touch, but I really did not like the Op 25 no 11 which followed. While it was somewhat jaw-dropping in its display of virtuosity, it was just far too fast for my taste, and it much of its nobility in the process.

Regards,
_________________________
BruceD
- - - - -
Estonia 190

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#449754 - 07/27/07 02:21 AM Re: Wunderkind
argerichfan Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/15/06
Posts: 8936
Loc: Pacific Northwest, US.
 Quote:
Originally posted by BruceD:
Wunder takes it at 176
Really? It didn't seem that fast, though I never pulled out a metronome to check.
_________________________
Jason

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#449755 - 07/27/07 05:36 AM Re: Wunderkind
TheMadMan86 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/22/05
Posts: 341
Loc: Evansville, Indiana
Ok if you are going to talk about good technique why not mention liberace. I know he didnt really record things like this. But lets face it he had fantastic technique and was like in Ripley's believe it or not as the fastest pianist out there. And lets not forget him playing with all those rings on. Have any of you tried to play with rings? I do not mean that in anyway just a curious question

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#449756 - 07/27/07 09:10 AM Re: Wunderkind
Liszt_BG Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/17/06
Posts: 340
Loc: Bulgaria
Try listening to Vadim Rudenko on Op. 10 No. 2

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#449757 - 07/27/07 10:22 AM Re: Wunderkind
8ude Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 2050
I didn't break out my metronome, but my recording of this etude by Browning sounds almost identical in tempo. Wunder does a great job, though - I was impressed with his performance.
_________________________
What you are is an accident of birth. What I am, I am through my own efforts. There have been a thousand princes and there will be a thousand more. There is one Beethoven.

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#449758 - 07/27/07 06:05 PM Re: Wunderkind
Mr_Kitty Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/07
Posts: 667
Loc: Toronto
Rudenko apparently is faster than
Wunder at no 2!!! I have no proof but word of mouth....
YEah wunder's winterwind is not great-not enough melody. way too much virtuosic display.
TheMadMan
Liberace could play fast and loud.
there's more to good technique than that. Liberace was an entertainer.

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#449759 - 07/27/07 08:25 PM Re: Wunderkind
yok Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/06/01
Posts: 464
Loc: New Zealand
FWIW, Ashkenazy's Melodiya recording is c.172 (I don't have his Decca recording handy)

The Anievas is no longer out of print. EMI have recently reissued their Anievas catalogue at budget price. The Chopin includes the complete Etudes, Waltzes, Ballades and 2nd and 3rd sonatas.

Rosenthal also said that the generation following his was so technically strong that if he were beginning his career again he would have to work a lot harder than he had done.

Technique is not everything, but as Horowitz said, to be more than a virtuoso first you must be a virtuoso.

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#449760 - 07/28/07 03:57 PM Re: Wunderkind
Liszt_BG Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/17/06
Posts: 340
Loc: Bulgaria
I've heard Rudenko, I had the link but must have lost it somewhere in the bunch of all links ...

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#449761 - 07/28/07 07:07 PM Re: Wunderkind
Mr_Kitty Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/07
Posts: 667
Loc: Toronto
Anyone who has the link for Rudenko's op. 10 no. 2 Chopin Etude please post...

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#449762 - 07/28/07 10:42 PM Re: Wunderkind
Palindrome Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/22/01
Posts: 3916
Loc: Chicago, IL USA
This is Rudenko's performance:

Rudenko Op. 10 #2


Thread about Rudenko Etude

Someone listened closely to the Rudenko recording and claimed a number missed D# notes in the R.H., as well as some audible splices from different takes. I didn't listen that hard, myself (see the thread).

I didn't check metronome speeds, but timing lengths are:

Rudenko, Wunder - 1' 09"
Zayas - 1' 22"
Perahia - 1' 24"

Someone else posted a different Rudenko performance, and the time there was 59 seconds. It sounded like hash, to me, very rushed. Personally, I'm quite happy with Perahia's performance, which is musically very satisfying. I haven't listened to Zayas in a while.

 Quote:
Originally posted by argerichfan:
Moritz Rosenthal had a moment of bitchiness: "those that don't think technique important, simply don't possess it!".

Ah, and this is interesting: I didn't realize two well known pianistic figures, Robert Goldsand and Charles Rosen, both studied with Rosenthal. Both of them might seem to be the antithesis of their teacher's temperment...

I've read plenty of Rosen's writings, but Goldsand is only a name to me. I do know, however, that he taught Harris Goldsmith, a well known critic and pianist. Didn't someone on the forum mention the other day a recording Goldsmith made of the Waldstein?
[/b]

Moritz Rosenthal had a lifetime of bitchiness. On hearing that Schnabel had been rejected for military service, "What did you expect? No fingers!"

I think the Goldsmith Waldstein was issued on Musical Heritage on cassette tape. I know I bought a copy, but I'm not sure I can lay my hands on it.
_________________________
There is no end of learning. -Robert Schumann Rules for Young Musicians

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#449763 - 07/28/07 10:47 PM Re: Wunderkind
Mr_Kitty Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/07
Posts: 667
Loc: Toronto
Rudenko is as fast as Wunder, but has nowhere NEAR the clarity. Not to mention the sparkle... Wunder owns op 10 no 2.

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#449764 - 07/28/07 10:59 PM Re: Wunderkind
Mr_Kitty Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/07
Posts: 667
Loc: Toronto
so apparently Rudenko's performance is heavily edited/spliced. Wunder's is live from the Competition....
rumour has it that Wunder started playing piano at 14-before that he was a violinist.

now THAT i have trouble believing...
undoubtedly god of 10/2

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#449765 - 07/28/07 11:11 PM Re: Wunderkind
Loki Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/09/05
Posts: 1035
Loc: Texas
 Quote:
Originally posted by BruceD:
re: Chopin, Op 10, No 2 :

Wunder takes it at 176
Perahia, at 132
Anievas, at 144
Berezovsky, at 144
Zayas, at 160

Well, speed isn't everything ... [/b]
At this topic, i just wanted to say that just because other musicians take it slower, it doesnt mean that they aren't able to play it faster. Just because Wunder is taking it at 176, doesnt mean he's the only one who can do that. Other pianists just choose to take it slower for their own musical reasons. Im sure that Tiempo and Kissin can play this etude just as fast if they wanted to. Watch a video of Kissin playing the Beethoven Rondo a Capriccio - i disagree with anyone who doesnt think that thats inhuman.
_________________________
Houston, Texas

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#449766 - 07/28/07 11:27 PM Re: Wunderkind
Mr_Kitty Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/07
Posts: 667
Loc: Toronto
Kissin's Rage Over a Lost Penny is indeed insane. That piece is one of the most difficult ones in the rep.
However, with an etude such as 10/2, where there is very little going on musically, speed isn't....everything, but it's darn close.

The proof's in the pudding. When Tiempo and Kissin actually do it, I'll believe it.
Taking 10/2 slower for musical reasons doesn't make much sense to me. It's an etude whose only purpose is to show off the technique of the performer.

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#449767 - 07/29/07 03:29 AM Re: Wunderkind
Liszt_BG Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/17/06
Posts: 340
Loc: Bulgaria
 Quote:
Originally posted by Mr_Kitty:
However, with an etude such as 10/2, where there is very little going on musically, speed isn't....everything, but it's darn close.

Taking 10/2 slower for musical reasons doesn't make much sense to me. It's an etude whose only purpose is to show off the technique of the performer. [/b]
Here's where I think you've wrong. IMO music is musical and has musical reasons even if it is just because it's music. Some are poor, others - not. I sincerely doubt Chopin's intentions on writing this etude (and whichever else, of course) were to simply "show off the technique of the performer".

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#449768 - 07/29/07 03:08 PM Re: Wunderkind
TheMadMan86 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/22/05
Posts: 341
Loc: Evansville, Indiana
 Quote:
Originally posted by Mr_Kitty:
Rudenko apparently is faster than
Wunder at no 2!!! I have no proof but word of mouth....
YEah wunder's winterwind is not great-not enough melody. way too much virtuosic display.
TheMadMan
Liberace could play fast and loud.
there's more to good technique than that. Liberace was an entertainer. [/b]
hmmm a post about speed and liberace is still just and entertainer. That is pretty amazing to me. Obviouslly there isnt to much better technique, he was one of the fastest. Yeah he was incredibly showy, but that was not the point.

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#449769 - 07/29/07 03:20 PM Re: Wunderkind
JBiegel Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/16/07
Posts: 850
The Argerich link posted earlier in this thread is indeed prodigious. Very fast, but she gets all the correct notes in, for the most part. It does indeed speed by a hair too fast to make sense in a musical line, but give credit where it's due. The Adele Marcus cd with that Prelude in b-flat minor should be announced toward the end of this year--watch out folks. It's absolutely a wake-up call for pianists who haven't heard her beautiful sound and genius level of taste and musicianship. It should become a benchmark release, although it cannot compare to her sound in the teaching studio.

My own YouTube posts so far are audio only--but videos should be released soon for Rach 2 and Prokofieff 3 concerti~
_________________________
www.jeffreybiegel.com

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#449770 - 07/29/07 06:21 PM Re: Wunderkind
Palindrome Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/22/01
Posts: 3916
Loc: Chicago, IL USA
 Quote:
Originally posted by JBiegel:
The Argerich link posted earlier in this thread is indeed prodigious. Very fast, but she gets all the correct notes in, for the most part. It does indeed speed by a hair too fast to make sense in a musical line, but give credit where it's due. The Adele Marcus cd with that Prelude in b-flat minor should be announced toward the end of this year--watch out folks. It's absolutely a wake-up call for pianists who haven't heard her beautiful sound and genius level of taste and musicianship. It should become a benchmark release, although it cannot compare to her sound in the teaching studio.

My own YouTube posts so far are audio only--but videos should be released soon for Rach 2 and Prokofieff 3 concerti~ [/b]
There are (a few) magnificent pianists out there who don't tour, are not widely known, don't have a big reputation. And when one considers how disruptive touring is to practicing and learning repertoire, I think that's not surprising. I hope an announcement of Ms. Marcus' record will appear here when it's ready.
_________________________
There is no end of learning. -Robert Schumann Rules for Young Musicians

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#449771 - 07/30/07 06:15 AM Re: Wunderkind
Antonius Hamus Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/24/05
Posts: 2230
 Quote:
Originally posted by Mr_Kitty:
When Tiempo and Kissin actually do it, I'll believe it.
Taking 10/2 slower for musical reasons doesn't make much sense to me. It's an etude whose only purpose is to show off the technique of the performer. [/b]
So you seriously think that Kissin, for example, plays the etude as fast as he can in whatever recording we're talking about here? Does he sound like he couldn't do it any faster? If Kissin could, in fact, play the etude faster than in the recording, then wouldn't you assume that your line of reasoning kind of breaks down? For crazy, there's always Gould and his Beethoven and Mozart recordings. How fast, again, did he take the beginning (at least) of the third movement of Op. 27 No 2? 208 bpm? And then there is the first movement of Op 111, and the prestissimo of I forget which, and a number of others...

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#449772 - 07/30/07 10:27 AM Re: Wunderkind
Antonius Hamus Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/24/05
Posts: 2230
Think of that as a hypothetical situation, or substitute Kissin with somebody brilliant who has actually recorded the piece...

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#449773 - 07/30/07 02:55 PM Re: Wunderkind
Mr_Kitty Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/07
Posts: 667
Loc: Toronto
come on guys, op 10 no 2 isn't exactly the most musically significant of the etudes... in fact it's definitely the least.

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#449774 - 07/30/07 03:08 PM Re: Wunderkind
Antonius Hamus Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/24/05
Posts: 2230
But it sounds nice when not taken too fast. I'm sure at least half of the pianists who have recorded it could have used a faster tempo than they did. I'll say the same about any other etude that has aesthetic value. On the other hand, almost every pianist except for Gould and Hofmann could have worked a bit more on the control and evenness and clarity of their playing... So meh...

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#449775 - 07/30/07 03:09 PM Re: Wunderkind
Antonius Hamus Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/24/05
Posts: 2230
 Quote:
Originally posted by Antonius Hamus:
I'm sure at least half of the pianists who have recorded it could have used a faster tempo than they did. [/b]
Make that "much faster" and we're communicating...

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#449776 - 07/30/07 04:47 PM Re: Wunderkind
Mr_Kitty Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/07
Posts: 667
Loc: Toronto
I still doubt that very many pianists could pull it off live as well as Wunder.
Wunder isn't the first pianist to come along and try to "shock" the world with his tempi and vertuosity. Surely others before him would have recorded their fastest possible 10/2 just for fun...
LOL and who's to say Wunder couldn't take it faster as well?

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