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Hey all,
Long time no post... Have been to New Zealand, the States and Israel of course. Leaving again for the States tomorrow for some concerts and teaching on both coasts.
Anyway, I just sent it to a piano Egroup upon someone's request and thought I'd post it here too, just in case someone is interested:

It is hard to try and teach this technique via email. I can give the basic ideas, but without face to face contact, or at least a set of accompanying relevant pictures and diagrams, not to mention monitoring how the student understand it, it is not guarantied to be very effective.
Before we do the circles we need to first master up and down movements of the wrist and 2 note phrases, 3 note phrases, etc.
Before we do that we need to master just sinking with the wrist into one single note and releasing it = one note phrase.
The idea of the wrist circles (some like to call them ovals) is to draw circles with your wrist as you play.
Your starting position is a leveled wrist, somewhat lower than your hand knuckles, forearms are more or less parallel to the floor and aligned with your hand/fingers.

The direction of the circles which you draw are always the same, the wrists go first down then outwards, up and back inwards, etc.
This means that the right hand goes counter clockwise and the left clockwise.
When your played notes move up on the keyboard (pitch wise), your right hand will do the bottom half circle and the left will do the upper half circle.
When your played notes move down your right hand will do the upper half circle and the left will do the bottom half circle.
For practice one should exaggerate the wrist movements. Once it is really mastered, it becomes a second nature and the movement can be large, or very small, almost not detectable by a spectator.
Try it with a 5 finger position doing a pentascale up and down.
For better hand position, I recommend all such exercises to be played with the right hand about one octave higher than middle C.
You can try it with a 5 finger position doing a triad arpeggio in root position.
Then you can do it with just 2 notes, one at each end.
Then you can do it with just 2 notes, one at each end, but far apart (leaps).
I'll be happy to answer questions about it, as much as I'll be able to understand them and reply them.
Best regards,
Rami

I really admired your Mozart video. It was extremely well thought out. How do you feel wrist circles relate to Mozart?

sorry.... why are you making circles with your wrist?

and why are you moving your wrists up and down in 2 and 3 note phrases? I just don't understand. What does a wrist have to do with a 2 note phrase?
Why are you sinking your wrist into a note?

This wrist fetish seems peculiar! What is your fascination with wrists and wrist movements?

aaaahhhh I watched your Mozart F major sonata video on youtube. Really enjoyed your playing. But I still don't understand about the circles.

Your reply sounds a little aggressive and not nice, so I'll skip replying it.
Best wishes,
Rami

This one sounds better and thank you, so I'll reply.
The wrist circles technique is one of the most important piano playing techniques. It helps phrase the music you're playing while protecting your hands from getting injured, sore and all other ailments.
It is also very useful with leaps.
Best wishes,
Rami

Rami
my profuse apologies in calling you a wrist fetishist.
You are a wonderful pianist. Thank you for sharing this technique

Rami

I watched your video of the Chopin Polonaise and it was really good. Bravo.

Here's a tip I learned:

Pinkies up, thumbs down... moving in circles.
Try playing Hanon SLOWLY. It will result in an "eggbeater" like look.

This is what Chopin 25/1 is all about - great etude for studying this technique

Here is my poorly recorded effort on my decrepit rhodes. Notice the movement is clockwise for the right, anti-clockwise for the left.

edit: oops, here it is: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hhiMuQMK1u8

Thanks for the good words.
Wrist circles relate to piano playing.
They help shape lines and phrases and they keep your hands stress free and healthy.
I'd like to clarify to all that this is not the only piano playing technique I use, recommend and teach, It is one of a number. In this particular post I discussed this one.
Best,
Rami

Accepted and thanks for the good words.
Best,
Rami

Thanks for the good words.
Best,
Rami

Rami;

Rami;

Hi Rami,

Thanks for the detailed description of this valuable technique. It will take all of the hurt and tension out of playing the piano.

Do you also teach up and down wrists and rotation, finger movement (especially for the opposing thumb), wrist and arm staccato, finger independence...etc.?

I'd like to hear any other techniques you would like to talk about. Your descriptions are so easy to understand.

My teacher teaches me to use wrist circles all the time, for me it relaxes my wrists and generally makes playing easier, thanks for the video it's fantastic

C H O P I N

My last teacher taught wrist circles too.

He taught it as part of an overarching principle:

ONE CONTINUOUS MOTION IS BETTER THAN MAKING A COMPLETE STOP AND THEN RESTARTING THE MOTION . . .

. . . because, everytime any part of your playing anatomy comes to a complete stop, your body must then readjust itself--realign itself, re-orient itself--as well as totally reverse it's energy momentum.

The oval is one continuous motion. The hand does not come to a complete stop at the top, nor at the bottom, of the oval.

Tomasino

I use an exception to your rules in situations like the following. Say right hand playing c2 d2 e2 f2 g2 c2 (c2 one octave above middle c, etc.). If I play the lower side of the circle (ellipse?) here from c2 to g2, I find that the thumb is too far away from c2 when it is time to play it. In this situation I play the upper part of the circle, clockwise, which keeps the thumb closer to c2. However, my circles might be larger than yours.

ocd

Thanks for the good words.
I will gladly do that (I do teach all these techniques), but it will be awhile before I can do the next chapter, as in one hour I'm flying to the States for 2 weeks of giving concerts, classes and private lessons.
Regards,
Rami

quick answer:
1) You do not have to let go your first C placement when doing the bottom half of the circle.
2) Even if you did, you come back to it with the upper half of the circle counterclockwise.
3) Once you master the circles, they do not at all have to always be large ones.
Regards,
Rami

Don't feel left out in the cold here. I don't understand their methodogy as the example apply either.

Possibly he's trying to explain a motion that I have my students emulate to better facilitate wide intervals between the thumb and either 3, 4, or 5 fingers?

I always say the relaxed motion is to imagine turning a knob the size of a grapefruit at eye level. This is best facilitated by incorporating a DUAL wrist movement on two different planes or axis. LATERAL movement, where the hand swings left to right on a static wrist, and circular rotative hand motion (like he's describing), to "turn the knob".

Cultivating a relaxed, economical combination of this dual helix of hand movement, together both lateral and circular, will increase the velocity headroom and evenness of executing large intervals.

What bothers me is when people use wrist-type techniques such as these before their finger-technique is sufficiently developed.
IMHO, circles such as those taught by Rami are most effectively used by ADVANCED pianists who have learned first to execute 2 and 3 note phrases (and just about everything else, for that matter) without any movement of the wrist whatsoever-all "finger". After this strenght is built, THEN we can effectively use subtle movements of the wrist.

Wrist circles are not a cure-all solution that can remedy insufficient or improper technique. I REALIZE no one in this thread ever claimed they WERE, I'm simply making the point

Hey all,
I've been away for a while on tour and am back now.

The wrist circles technique is not limited to what you describe above, but is good for anything in piano playing.

I'm afraid you mix up the names of these known and established piano playing techniques.
The wrist circles technique has nothing to do with the rotation technique, as a matter of fact they are 2 different techniques and quite the opposite.
The wrist circles technique obviously employs the wrist movement. The rotation technique employs the forearm in a turning manner (like turning a key) and the wrist joint is practically non-existing here.

I am not sure if this is what you are saying, but combining these 2 techniques is really a very, very high level of executing them. I would recommend to first totally master each technique on its own.
Best wishes and regards,
Rami

Yes, nothing is a cure-all solution, that's why I use and teach various piano playing techniques.
However, all good piano playing techniques should be taught from the beginning of piano playing and not be postponed until bad habits are formed and injuries occur.
Best regards,
Rami

Although I normally never post in Internet forums, I actually decided to take the step to register so that I could post a thank-you to Rami for this thread.

I'm a total amateur and have never had the chance to take lessons, although I hope to find a good teacher and study formally when circumstances permit. I decided that I wanted to learn to play about ten years ago, while in college. I didn't have a piano, so I practiced when I could on the pianos at school between classes. I finally got a piano a few years ago and have been playing just for personal pleasure. I suppose the point that I'm trying to make is that my technique is not really good.

I'm currently working on Chopin 25-6 ("thirds"), which I'm endeavoring to play without pedaling so that I can really distinguish the left-hand voices. I'm about a month into the piece, which, at my level of ability, puts me note-perfect at 1/2 tempo (although I can play it fast and sloppily ).

I read this thread with interest about a week ago and decided to attempt Rami's recommendation. I practiced exaggerated elliptical wrist circles on the last page of 25-1 (the Ab "harp" etude) for about an hour and was impressed with the possibilities. After I got used to the clockwise motion in the LH, I applied it to the LH of 25-6, which seems so very hard for me to get the way I want it.

The difference was astounding and almost immediate. From a technical standpoint, I can now play the LH voices with relative ease, and with much better control over the phrasing now that there are no jerky changes in momentum in the wrist.

I can't thank you enough for your advice, Rami. Even though I doubt that I am performing the motion entirely correctly yet, I feel as though a fundamental barrier to my entire piano technique has been broken. I wait with much interest and anticipation for your next thread!

I do have some general questions about the wrist circles technique. You mentioned that it can be used anywhere in piano playing. I don't know if you mean that literally or not -- how would you apply it (or would you) in a multi-octave ascending scale or arpeggio that terminates at the top? And in the case of a multi-octave ascending and descending arpeggio, does the wrist describe one large circle (or ellipse) from start to finish? I am so impressed with its effect as already applied that I want to integrate it as much as possible into my playing and practicing.

Thank you again -- sorry for the lengthiness of my reply.

Wow Marten, thanks for the good words and the enthusiasm.
About your questions, yes, it can be used anywhere in piano playing, meant literally.
Just remember please that it doesn't have to be a big movement and at times it can be so subtle that only you'd know it's there.
Not only can it be applied in a "multi-octave ascending scale or arpeggio that terminates at the top and in the case of a multi-octave ascending and descending arpeggio", but it would also help phrase and shape them.
Yes, the wrist can/may "describe one large circle (or ellipse) from start to finish", or divide the movement into 2 or more such circles.
Also please remember that there are other techniques and my idea of good technique in piano playing is:
1) Fitting the most suitable technique for a passage, episode, line, etc.
2) Combining the different techniques where applicable.
I am impressed with your repertoire, keep up the good work.
Rami

Hi, just wanted to chime in since I also use the wrist circles constantly. Arrau's Beethoven fingerings seem crazy in many cases unless you're using constant wrist circular motions. The problem with describing something like this is that it gets misinterpreted. The motion of the wrist is not what depresses the key. The fingers are active. If you play 5 ascending notes with your RH and you have a loose wrist, it really should rise and move to the right naturally. Pivoting around on your pinky and allowing your wrist to come high (but not too high) and back to the left will allow your wrist to complete the circle even before the thumb plays, in a 1 2 3 4 5 1 2 3 4 5 1 2... pattern. It will also keep the pinky from collapsing or playing on it's side, like a karate chop. Your pinky plays, and then your wrist comes up to support it, as it comes around and begins it's journey back to the left, all while holding the note with your pinky.

The finger knuckles should never curve the wrong way, as they would if they were limp and inactive. And it is important to not play too heavy if you want to allow your wrist to do this naturally. Forget about forte as being loud or a fast pressing of the key when first trying this technique, once it feels natural it will be easy to add heaviness. The goal should be a nimble, supple wrist, with active, rhythmic finger tips. The wrist in constant flowing circular motion that grounds you in the keys, the fingertips like tiny spark plugs firing with minimal effort at the exact moment they are needed.

As you cover greater distances on the keyboard, the more ovular the wrist movement becomes, as the height of the circle won't change much, if at all. And the bottom of the wrist circle shouldn't be too low, never flopping under the hand in a limp way. As you ascend 1 2 3 4 5 stay relatively low, the majority of the upward movement happening on the pinky as you come around.

You come AROUND your pinky. And this does not involve raising the elbow or the shoulder.

The wrist DOES NOT help you play notes. You never fall into the notes. Moving in circles helps you to pivot slightly on each key to help you into position for the next key, and keeps your hand in a less stretched out, more natural position. And ultimately it should feel like your fingers are guiding your wrist in these circles, not vice versa.

To try the circles them in a musical setting, look at the Peters edition Beethoven sonatas from this perspective. Arrau's fingerings promote this circular motion constantly.

And neither your pinky nor thumb should be collapsed into. Again, the wrist does not play the notes.

Skryabyn :

Sometimes there may be some interest in reviving old threads, but this one is six years old and didn't have much of a life at that time. Most of the contributors to it have long since vanished from the Pianist Corner.

Regards,