Hi

I am from Hong Kong and need some help in selecting a new piano for my kids. I have two boys. My elder son is seven and has been taking piano lessons for over three years now. My younger son is five and has just started taking piano lessons. I have a Kawai US60M at home, which was manufactured in 1987.

My elder son has been complaining about the light tough of the Kawai compared with many other pianos including the one he plays at his teacher's place and the one he played during examination. As his skill starts to get better, my wife and I are thinking of getting another upright (we don't have space for a grand) piano for him, leaving the Kawai for my younger son. We have set our budget to range from US$10,000 to 15,000.

One of my relative recommends a Steinway and Sons K132. She has one and we had tried it and love it. But the Steinway is selling at a very high price here in Hong Kong, over US$37,000. So, it is out of our consideration.

Those under our consideration are:
Sauter 130 M line US$18K
Schimmel O132 DT US$16K
Seiler 132 Konzert SMR US$12K
Schimmel 130 T US$11K
Sauter 130 TLR2 US$11K
Pleyel P131 US$10K

I have been looking around the internet and visiting local dealers. I think all of them are good pianos but I would like to hear your opinion as to which one is the best value for money.

I have some specific questions and would like your advice:

For the Schimmels, do they use solid spruce for the sound board? What is the major difference between the diamond series O132DT and the 130T? Is it worth the difference in price?

For the Sauters, the dealer appears to say that the 130 TLR2 is indeed the 130 competence. Do you think it worth the difference in price when compared with the 130 M line? One more question for the Sauters, they are of relatively light weight (only 210 kg) when compared with say the Steinway K132 (over 300 kg) or the Seiler 132 (about 250 kg). I think it must be due to a difference in design and material used. My question is will it affect the quality or durability of the piano in any way?

Many thanks.

Vincent

I think you will be able to get a better deal, and still a high-quality piano, without spending the money on a Steinway upright. I'm not a tech, but my understanding is their design makes them extremely difficult to work on. My impression is that the uprights, while nice pianos, aren't in the same league as their grand pianos. If you like the Steinway uprights that's just fine, but there are other choices.

The alternatives on your list are much cheaper, and equally nice uprights. I've played the Schimmel and Seiler, and they are both excellent pianos. I own the Pleyel 130 (I paid ~$8K USD about 3 years ago for it.) If you get a chance, you might also want to try a Schulz-Pohlmann. (I'm sure I misspelled that.)

I'll let others answer your questions about sound boards, but my advice is to play them all and decide which one you prefer given the cost. They are all excellent pianos.

Nina

I don't know how to address your questions re the Sauter models (I'm not a dealer), but will state that the 2 upright Sauters I've played were simply the best uprights I've ever encountered. Good luck with your search.

I agree with Katie about the Sauter - a fabulous piano. Also consider the Charles Walter - two upright models - 43 and 45 inches. Also consider the Mason Hamlin. In consideration of your childs increasing skills, without a grand you should investigate the Fandrich uprights. The action design is very innovative.

Vincent is in Hong Kong. Mason and Hamlin and Charles R. Walter do not export outside North America (not even sure if they export to Canada).

Wow ... $37,000 for the Steinway K132 (K52 in the US)is outrageous. It's at least $10,000 cheaper over here, if not more. It's a very good piano, but you can find equally good pianos for a lot less.

Lawrence

Thanks for the advice so far.

Katie, you mentioned that you have played 2 Sauter uprights. Are you referring to the 130 M line and the 130 competence?

Scutch, I have not seen Fandrich upright in Hong Kong. May be I should ask some local dealers about its availability. Thanks

Vincent

Just my two cents on the steinway:

I played a few new steinway uprights many months ago and I thought the price/sound ratio was absolutely disgusting. It's proof positive that paying top dollar for something that is 'supposedly' better or even 'best', sometimes only gets you a name to show off and a bigger hole in your pocket book. Often times you are just succumbing to succesful marketing.

While the pianos were certainly ok, there was nothing stellar about any of them that made them more appealing than some new uprights one half ( or less) the price. To me, it spoke of snobbery. Steinway knows they must sell their uprights at a premium to protect their name...especially of the grands. Does that mean their $18,000 upright sounds better than the cheaper competition. Not to me. Sure, maybe their materials and workmanship are superior in some respect. I don't care. I'm not paying for an extended warrantee when I buy a product. I want a piano that sounds good and has an excellent action. For the price of the steinway uprights...both should be phenomenal. Instead, they expect you to buy it on the merits of the name.

It's also important to note that there is a market out there for folks of wealth. Whether it's bar stools or pianos, there 'has' to be a market for wealthy folks that have money to burn and just want 'the best'. That doesn't mean that a $2,000 bar stool is three times better than a $600 one, nor does it mean that a $20,000 upright is three times better than a $7,000 one. But the market will supply both because both will sell - to somebody. Steinway knows there niche and who buys their products. For people who want value, you will not see it in steinway uprights. My opinion.

Of course, I find many of ther grands to be supreme enough...that I don't have the same complaint - I'm just happy that they make them.

For what it's worth Vincent, I bought a Yamaha U3 for my 2 kids & me. We love it. I know this wasn't on your list, but this piano does have a heavy touch if that's what you're looking for.

That is the Fandrich & Sons upright. This piano is based on the Klima piano. They do not sell through dealers, only directly from their Stanwood, Washington facility.

The Fandrich Vertical piano is no longer in production but a varient of it may be sometime in the future.

Del

Del,
Will the variant have a carbon fiber sound board, ribs, outer rim, legs, lid, bridges, and music rack?

While I agree that the Charles R. Walter is a wonderful wonderful piano, I think the price range you're in allows you to get into a different class of instrument.

I think (and this is just my opinion ... as a technician and mediocre performer) that the M-line is the best on your list. I have played everything on your list, and have worked on several of them.
The Sauter is truly a fantastic piano, and the M-line is the best in the lineup.

The action will offer a bit more resistence which your son will like. You can also sleep well knowing that you received great value in the piano you chose (but that can be said for most on your list).

I purchased the Fandrich & Sons upright in December of last year. The overall quality and tone of the Klima based piano is exceedingly good.

And, the Fandrich action has to be experienced to be believed. It is pretty amazing.

I made the pilgimage to Stanwood Washington to experience the Fandrich & Sons upright last summer as part of my upright "quest." I've very glad I did.

For the person looking for a good quality upright with the touch and feel very close to that of a grand I recommend putting Fandrich & Son's on your list.

I have no idea whether or not Darrell has any customers in Hong Kong. However, you can email Heather (Darrell's wife & partner) to find out.

fandrich@fandrich.com

* SAUTER 130 MLine *

GO for it, this is simply an amazing piano far superior to a great many small grands. And, better quality than the others you mentioned, I beleive.
I have worked on these (and others) and if you need more info, let me know.
* SAUTER 130 MLine *

Thank you all for your information. I brought my kids to the dealer and asked my elder son, Yingkiu, to play those on my list.

It really surprised me the difference in tone produced by different made. For the Steinway, the dealer did not have the K132 so Yingkiu tried the V125. The base looked more powerful than all of the others. He liked it most but it is out of our budget, unfortunately.

While we were experimenting the others, we noticed that some of the new seiler and schimmel grands are on promotion (in Hong Kong). The price is just a little bit over the upright and now we are seriously thinking about a grand.

I am going to set up a new thread to ask your opinion on these grands and I thank you for your advice in advance.