Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

Gifts and supplies for the musician

the Forums & Piano World

Trying Something New with Search
Pearl River
Pearl River Pianos
(ad) Pianoteq
(ad) Lindeblad Piano
Lindeblad Piano Restoration
(ad) P B Guide
Acoustic & Digital Piano Guide
Who's Online
96 registered (AndrewJCW, aliash, agraffe, 29 invisible), 1047 Guests and 6 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad) Estonia Piano
Estonia Pianos
Quick Links to Useful Piano & Music Resources
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers

Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano & Music Accessories
*Live Piano Venues
*Music School Listings
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Piano Books
*Piano Art, Pictures, & Posters
*Directory/Site Map
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Screen Saver
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords
Topic Options
#460096 - 10/01/01 06:06 PM Mozart Sonata
CrashTest Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/23/01
Posts: 4111
In Mozart's Sonata k.330 (#11), there is a trill in the beginning. Should I play it on the main note (starts on C and alternates with D) or start on the next note, which is D (since in mozarts time this was the practice). If I start on the upper note, the left hand notes fit in nicely with the right hand, (one left hand note for every two in the trill), but when I start on the main note the trill is on, the notes do not line up. Which way is recommended?

Piano & Music Gifts & Accessories (570)
Piano accessories and music gift items
#460097 - 10/01/01 06:49 PM Re: Mozart Sonata
MacDuff Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 560
Loc: Southeast, U.S.A.
In this case, I'd start from above (D-C).

By the way, in the 3rd mvt., I'd play the trill in the 4th measure starting on the main note, as that note is a "passing tone."

#460098 - 10/02/01 03:34 PM Re: Mozart Sonata
Amy Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/07/01
Posts: 433
Loc: Upstate New York
I am also studying a Mozart sonata and my teacher told me that all the trills start on the upper note.
*Visit my page! http://www.expage.com/pianopalace

#460099 - 10/02/01 05:04 PM Re: Mozart Sonata
BruceD Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 19542
Loc: Victoria, BC

Your teacher (and you) might be interested in the following paragraph which I am quoting, in part, from the General Preface of the Associated Board Edition of the Mozart Sonatas, edited by Bowen and Raymar, with the introduction written by Aubyn Raymer - admittedly an old edition:

"Leopold Mozart insists that every trill, even the shortest, must begin on its auxiliary or upper note. Nevertheless, musical sense soon finds necessary exceptions to this general rule. Possibly ancient theorists, equally with composers, could risk taking for granted the diffusion and functioning of musical common sense and knowledge both among amateurs and public performers. It would be absurd to begin Mozart's B flat Sonata (No. 3), for example, on C, or to open the Adagio of the Second Sonata (F major) on any note other than C. One might as well alter the sense of Bach's Fugue in F sharp major (No. 13, Bk. II.) by starting it on the tonic. Possessed of the slenderest information, hardly anyone is likely to start the Prelude in G minor of the First Book on a ninth, except by sheer inadvertence. In playing Mozart, the student may make for himself a counter-rule (to the ancient prescription) for [trills] which occur on the first note of a movement, on the first note of a new phrase, or after a rest..."


- - - - -
Estonia 190

#460100 - 10/03/01 05:07 PM Re: Mozart Sonata
yok Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/06/01
Posts: 497
Loc: New Zealand
Just to show how little consensus there is over matters of ornamentation, the latest ABRSM edition of the Mozart sonatas contradicts the older one mentioned by Bruce. Raymar wrote that "It would be absurd to begin Mozart's B flat Sonata (No. 3), for example, on C," yet in the newer edition Denis Matthews suggests exactly that. In fact the C is like a leading note onto a short trill beginning on the B flat in Matthews's realisation. I have always played this and it doesn't sound absurd to me.

BTW in K330 I always start the first trill on the D.

#460101 - 10/05/01 10:53 PM Re: Mozart Sonata
CrashTest Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/23/01
Posts: 4111
In the first movement of the same sonata, there is another trill that occurs early on- there is a # sign above and below the trill sign, above E and than A when it repeats. What should I play, I ask this because the G schirmer edition has a a footnote on it and it is rather strange, there is a D in the trill, but it is only supposed to be E-F. (what do the sharp # signs do to it?) Thanks!

#460102 - 10/06/01 02:08 AM Re: Mozart Sonata
yok Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/06/01
Posts: 497
Loc: New Zealand
I guess you mean bar 37 and the same figure at 124 in the recapitulation? It seems like the Schirmer editor suggests a turn (E-F#-E-D#-E-F#, hence the two sharps above and below the marking). It is often the case that Mozart intended a turn when he simply gave a trill marking, and it sounds quite good here (I just tried it). In the recapitulation you will need to play G# if you use the turn, and B natural. The simplest thing would be to play an inverted mordant on the E (up to F# of course)- but this would be breaking the always-start-on-the-note-above rule (which is not really a rule). The ABRSM edition I use gives F#-E-F#-E-F#, the last F# being the demisemiquaver after the trill note. The first three notes are played as a triplet.

Out of curiosity, how are you fingering the rather awkward trills in bb. 127-128 and 135-136?


Moderator:  Brendan, Kreisler 
What's Hot!!
Why It's Impossible to Tune a Piano!
aka, why you should be nice to your tuner.
Posting Pictures on the Forums
Forums Rules & Help
on Piano World

Piano Classified Ads
Piano Acc. & Gift Items in
Piano World's Online Store
In PianoSupplies.com ,(a division of Piano World) our online store for piano and music gifts and accessories, party goods, tuning equipment, piano moving equipment, benches, lamps Caster Cups and more.

Free Shipping on Jansen Artist Piano Benches
Hammond A100 for Sale!
(Think B3)
Hammond A100 for sale!
(125ad) Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad 125)
Sweetwater $55,000 Giveaway
Sweetwater $55,000 Mic Locker Giveaway
Wessell Nickel & Gross
New Topics - Multiple Forums
WOW!!! "Chord Play", by Forrest Kinney!
by MacMorrighan
Today at 07:32 PM
Joel Hastings has passed away
by stores
Today at 06:14 PM
VR piano
by David Farley
Today at 04:43 PM
Bechstein in Jerusalem
by David-G
Today at 01:55 PM
Questions About Replacing Piano
by newbert
Today at 01:49 PM
Forum Stats
83,794 Registered Members
44 Forums
172,995 Topics
2,528,751 Posts

Most users ever online: 15,252 @ 03/21/10 11:39 PM
Sheet Music Plus (125)
Sheet Music Plus Featured Sale

Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World | Donate | Link to Us | Classifieds |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter | Press Room |

copyright 1997 - 2016 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission