Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

SEARCH
the Forums & Piano World

This custom search works much better than the built in one and allows searching older posts.
(ad 125) Sweetwater - Digital Keyboards & Other Gear
Digital Pianos at Sweetwater
(ad) Pearl River
Pearl River Pianos
(ad) Pianoteq
Latest Pianoteq add-on instrument: U4 upright piano
(ad) P B Guide
Acoustic & Digital Piano Guide
PianoSupplies.com (150)
Piano Accessories Music Related Gifts Piano Tuning Equipment Piano Moving Equipment
We now offer Gift Certificates in our online store!
(ad) Estonia Piano
Estonia Piano
Quick Links to Useful Stuff
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers
*Organs

Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano Accessories
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Piano Books
*Piano Art, Pictures, & Posters
*Directory/Site Map
*Contest
*Links
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Screen Saver
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords
Topic Options
#464323 - 02/21/02 02:43 AM Foolproof way to perfect scales! GUARANTEED!!
JoeTownley Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/17/02
Posts: 77
Loc: Glendale Ca
As anybody who's been following these posts knows by now, I injured my hand several years ago and took a 15 year layoff from the piano to pursue other things. It was hearing the Scriabin D# minor Etude that brought me back about a year ago. I'd alway wanted to learn it and tried once but the base was too darned complicated for me at the time. Now I've managed to get it into reasonable shape. But getting my technic back was a long, hard climb. My scales were an absolute mess, expecially my right hand (the injured one) Then I tried something I'd been experimenting with just before i gave it all up. One thing that's always bothered me about the way scales are taught is that both hands have to pivot at different point. Take the scale of D. Starting the fingering in the left hand w/ the traditional pinkie means the left hamd as to pivot one note after the right, and so on and so on. What if both hands could pivot at equal times every time? They can. Merely start the bottom of the scale in the left hand w/ the ring finger(4th). Both hands will pivot simultaneously from G to A and again from C#-D-E. Hence, LH fingering: 4(D),3,2,1,4,3,2,1,3,2,1,4,3,2,1,3,2,1(D) This works for C, D, E, G, A, in major and minor. The flats present unique problems but the key (pun) is to keep both thumbs striking the keys at the same time so the pivot can occur simultaneously. Try it out and see. It takes some getting used to but one you have it, the results will astonish you. Boy, did it help me get those scales back into shape!

Top
(ad) Piano & Music Accessories
piano accessories music gifts tuning and moving equipment
#464324 - 02/21/02 08:14 AM Re: Foolproof way to perfect scales! GUARANTEED!!
okat47 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/13/01
Posts: 193
Loc: Canada
Right now I'm considering trying out your fingering at my lesson next week just to see my teacher's reaction.You have no idea how much havoc that would cause.
As for the whole pivot thing, I've heard that sometimes scales are first taught in contrary motion to avoid that problem.
I always thought the foolproof way to perfect scales was practise....

Top
#464325 - 02/21/02 10:10 AM Re: Foolproof way to perfect scales! GUARANTEED!!
Stanza Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/18/02
Posts: 1458
Loc: Chapel Hill, NC
I read somewhere, I think it was Sandor's book, that he didn't recommend practicing scales hands together at all, because it leads to unevenness and inability to effectively concentrate on technique for each hand.
_________________________
Estonia L190 #7004
Casio PX 310
Yamaha NP 30

Top
#464326 - 02/21/02 10:43 AM Re: Foolproof way to perfect scales! GUARANTEED!!
Rodion Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/06/01
Posts: 296
Loc: Salt Lake City
 Quote:
Originally posted by Stanza:
I read somewhere, I think it was Sandor's book, that he didn't recommend practicing scales hands together at all, because it leads to unevenness and inability to effectively concentrate on technique for each hand.[/b]


that book helped me a ton...no one had ever told me not to pass my thumb under my hand before, and what a difference that made.
_________________________
Time is a great teacher, but unfortunately it kills all its pupils. - Hector Berlioz

Top
#464327 - 02/21/02 03:17 PM Re: Foolproof way to perfect scales! GUARANTEED!!
Eldon Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 597
Loc: Illinois
Joe,
That fingering will work in C and all the sharp keys (G,D,A,E,B) excluding F#. You can also realize the same groupings in the flat keys...keeping your thumbs on C and F in every key.
_________________________
Sincerely,
Eldon

Top
#464328 - 02/21/02 05:45 PM Re: Foolproof way to perfect scales! GUARANTEED!!
Lido's Pizzaz Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 12/28/01
Posts: 4
Loc: Silver Spring, MD
I have been practicing the circle of 5ths every night with my eyes closed (good for sight reading, so I have been told). But anyway, with the DM scale the fingering that I was taught is:

(D)54321321 4321321(D)

which always puts 3 on the F# and 2 on C#. So that my hand would fit better over the black keys I think a better fingering might be
(D) 214321321432132 (D)
Then 4 is always on the F# and 3 is on the C#. But then again, the sharps are always the first key that you hit when rotating over your thumb. Anybody care to say why one fingering would be better than another? for this scale and in general? Also, is there any benefits to buying a book of scales? Am I answering my own question?

Top
#464329 - 02/21/02 07:07 PM Re: Foolproof way to perfect scales! GUARANTEED!!
Nina Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/13/01
Posts: 6467
Loc: Phoenix, AZ
that book helped me a ton...no one had ever told me not to pass my thumb under my hand before, and what a difference that made. [/b]

Rodion, I think I'm guilty of passing my thumb under my hand... can you describe what you mean, and what Sandor recommended?

Thx
Nina

Top
#464330 - 02/21/02 08:25 PM Re: Foolproof way to perfect scales! GUARANTEED!!
JoeTownley Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/17/02
Posts: 77
Loc: Glendale Ca
yeah, what's so bad about the thumb under the hand??

Top
#464331 - 02/21/02 09:10 PM Re: Foolproof way to perfect scales! GUARANTEED!!
Bernard Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/06/01
Posts: 3857
Loc: North Groton, NH
How can you play legato without passing the thumb under?

On the matter of fingering, having practiced each hand separately and well, I do not find any difficulty when putting them together. Perhaps the problem arises when trying to put hands together too soon?
_________________________
"Hunger for growth will come to you in the form of a problem." -- unknown

Top
#464332 - 02/21/02 10:18 PM Re: Foolproof way to perfect scales! GUARANTEED!!
Rodion Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/06/01
Posts: 296
Loc: Salt Lake City
sure thing... you don't pass your thumb under, but rather turn your hand outward on the third or fourth finger thereby placing your thumb directly over the key rather than forcing it under the palm. the reason is because when it's under the palm you don't have much control over the muscles that pull the thumb down and you also need to lower your wrist to play the note too. when it's next to the hand and not under it you have the full range of up-down motion for the thumb.

but it's very important to turn your hand by lifting your upper arm outward (and moving your whole forearm) rather than from your wrist, which would put strain on it.

it might seem a bit awkward but after a very small bit of slow practice (hand seperate) i was able to play much smoother after one day of this. the motions you use to turn your hand outward will (naturally) become smaller the quicker you play...and it help to keep your hands turned outward for the whole scale instead of doing it right as the thumb passes.

if that's not a good enough description i can dig out the book...
_________________________
Time is a great teacher, but unfortunately it kills all its pupils. - Hector Berlioz

Top
#464333 - 02/21/02 11:18 PM Re: Foolproof way to perfect scales! GUARANTEED!!
Matt G. Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/22/01
Posts: 3789
Loc: Plainfield, IL
 Quote:
Originally posted by Rodion:
you don't pass your thumb under, but rather turn your hand outward on the third or fourth finger thereby placing your thumb directly over the key rather than forcing it under the palm[/b]


Dang! You mean to tell me I've been doing it right all along? ;\) I remember getting funny looks from other players when they would see me do that, even though none of my teachers ever mentioned it. Sure there's always a lot to be said for minimal motion, but the technique Rodion describes is, IMHO, much less stressful on the thumb ligaments and promotes much better control of attack on the thumb's note.
_________________________
Sacred cows make the best hamburger. - Clemens

Top
#464334 - 02/22/02 12:01 AM Re: Foolproof way to perfect scales! GUARANTEED!!
Bernard Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/06/01
Posts: 3857
Loc: North Groton, NH
Well, I pass my thumb under, not down and under. And in fact there is some slight lifting of the wrist and my thumbtip moves diagonally over somewhat towards the ring finger. I have a hard time envisioning this rotation thing working in fast legato scales. I'll give it a try tomorrow morning.
_________________________
"Hunger for growth will come to you in the form of a problem." -- unknown

Top
#464335 - 02/22/02 11:04 AM Re: Foolproof way to perfect scales! GUARANTEED!!
BruceD Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 17835
Loc: Victoria, BC
Joe:

Will you forgive my skepticism when I say that I view askance any claim that puts "foolproof", "perfect", and "guaranteed!!" together.

Are you, perchance, in advertising/marketing?

Regards,
_________________________
BruceD
- - - - -
Estonia 190

Top
#464336 - 02/22/02 01:13 PM Re: Foolproof way to perfect scales! GUARANTEED!!
Nina Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/13/01
Posts: 6467
Loc: Phoenix, AZ
Rodion:

I think I understand what you've described. I'll give it a shot. Thanks!
Nina

Top
#464337 - 02/22/02 01:34 PM Re: Foolproof way to perfect scales! GUARANTEED!!
JoeTownley Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/17/02
Posts: 77
Loc: Glendale Ca
Actually, no, I'm lousy at sales. So lousy, in fact, that i couldn't sell a snowcone to an Arab on the Sahara in the middle of summer. Just,based on my results, it seems a much more practical way to approach the problem of smooth scales, having both hands pivot at the same time, than disjointed as happens w/ the regular method.

Top
#464338 - 02/23/02 05:24 AM Re: Foolproof way to perfect scales! GUARANTEED!!
LudwigVanB Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/09/02
Posts: 152
Loc: Atlanta
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Rodion:
you don't pass your thumb under, but rather turn your hand outward on the third or fourth finger thereby placing your thumb directly over the key rather than forcing it under the palm

This is essentially, I think, the Taubman method. My teacher is teaching me this. It is awkward to get use to because it doesn't seem natural at first, turning the forearm to strike a key rather than striking it with the finger or thumb. I've been at it several months and I'm just beginning to be able to apply it to scales in music. There is no question it is smoother, less stressful, and my teacher can do it very fast altho she says forget about speed, just learn to do it correctly and speed comes as a byproduct

Top
#464339 - 02/23/02 12:30 PM Re: Foolproof way to perfect scales! GUARANTEED!!
Rodion Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/06/01
Posts: 296
Loc: Salt Lake City
from what i've read about the taubman method on the other post it involves rotation, like in trills or tremolos. but the hand doesn't rotate that way in what i'm talking about. this motion pushes the fifth finger toward the piano and thumb actually away from it, so you need to place the third or fourth finger a bit deeper when you play. it naturally rotates a little anyway during scales, but the motion to play the thumb isn't from rotation.
_________________________
Time is a great teacher, but unfortunately it kills all its pupils. - Hector Berlioz

Top

Moderator:  Brendan, Kreisler 
What's Hot!!
Our latest Issue is available now...
Piano News - Interesting & Fun Piano Related Newsletter! (free)
-------------------
HOW TO POST PICTURES on the Piano Forums
-------------------
Sharing is Caring!
About the Buttons
-------------------
Forums Rules & Help
-------------------
ADVERTISE
on Piano World

The world's most popular piano web site.
(ad) HAILUN Pianos
Hailun Pianos - Click for More
Ad (Seiler/Knabe)
Seiler Pianos
Sheet Music
(PW is an affiliate)
Sheet Music Plus Featured Sale
(125ad) Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad) Lindeblad Piano
Lindeblad Piano Restoration
Who's Online
141 registered (AndrewJCW, Alex1, accordeur, 36251, 42 invisible), 1686 Guests and 18 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Stats
75566 Members
42 Forums
156232 Topics
2294521 Posts

Max Online: 15252 @ 03/21/10 11:39 PM
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Verituner Data Download?
by A443
1 minute 15 seconds ago
Meaning of Perfect Fith in music theory
by Weiyan
14 minutes 19 seconds ago
Practicing slow is only part of it
by Sweet06
39 minutes 11 seconds ago
Intro to Elton John's 'Nikita'
by Visalia
57 minutes 42 seconds ago
Is a Yamaha P35 appropriate for church services?
by Giancarlo Robles
Today at 03:59 PM
(ads by Google)

Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World | Donate | Link to Us | Classifieds |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter | Press Room |


copyright 1997 - 2014 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission