It's rather difficult to find information on why Chopin and Georges Sand split up and I was wondering if anyone knows exactly why. I have heard that it was because Sand's family was somehow a strain on their relationship but I am curious to discover a bit more elaboration. Also, would you consider Chopin's relationship with Sand detrimental, beneficial, or neither to his health and creativity?

Thanks! This is something that has always interested me.

I'm don't really know much about your first question but I've read from several sources that Chopin was at his compositional peak during the time he was with Sand. When they split his health got worse and he didn't compose as much. So I guess I'm trying to say it was beneficial for him.

Well, what I was thinking was that the stress of a relationship was both a blessing and a curse: love inspired him to create great art but the obligations of love damaged his already ill health.

Hi--

I just noticed your question in the "new posts" list. If you want a bunch of opinions, maybe more than you want to know, check the "Just for those totally devoted to Chopin" thread. Especially look at the posts from early 2008. The monster is 164 pages long now, so there's really too much too look through, but some of us were having a heated argument about just the subject you've brought up earlier this year. We have a group of total Chopin nerds and between the bunch of us we know nearly all that is knowable about his life. However, we have vastly differing views of Mme Sand.

I wish I could recommend a biography that really makes the matter clear, but I'm afraid they all miss the mark in some way. There just isn't a simple answer about whether the relationship with Sand was beneficial or detrimental for Chopin. It seems to have been a bit of both, for both of them.

Jim Samson's and Jeremy Siepmann's books on Chopin are probably the best, though.

I could elaborate but I've already written reams on this subject!

Elene

Have you ever watched the movie "Impromptu." I personally think the movie is quite cheesy and not really that great but there are still some elements of truth in it that you may be able to pull out.

I personally believe that the relationship between the two wasn't detrimental to both Chopin's creativity or his health. I believe that love is an extremely important factor in an artist's creativity and that Sand was probably able to inspire to Chopin in some way or another. It was also a great thing that she was there to at least look after him in his harder times, health-wise.

Notes on Sands and Chopin:

Well, this peaked my curiosity.

Yes that thread is so long that I had not even begun to read it! ;-)

But, Elene, you didn't give us much to go on to find the references. We are in the Pianist Corner, so that is where I began my search. Couldn't find Sands (wrong spelling) nor later Chopin and Sand.

Tried 'Just for those totally devoted to Chopin' but that was too long a phrase for the SEARCH feature. Tried that in half. Still nothing.

Tried your past posts.

Tried just checking back for several pages on the Pianist Forum for JFTTDT Chopin.

Nothing.

Gave up for a while...

but then...

TA DAH! I found the 'Just for those totally devoted to Chopin' over on the Adult Beginner's Forum and started hunting. No easy feat but posts were finally found on about pages 132 on in the middle of that long thread.

Here is at least a place to start, for those interested:

http://www.pianoworld.com/ubb/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?/topic/32/2901/132.html

It was an interesting read for this past hour. Certainly seems to me that I should be picking up a book or two to read about Chopin along with Sands.

I noted 2 books referencing Chopin. What about something on Sands?

Thanks for all your contributions. LL

Wouldn't it be funny if Julian Sands had been cast as Sand instead of Liszt in Impromptu?

Steven

Lol, A passionate love scene between Hough Grant and Julian sands would be hilarious!!! Lol!!!

Hi Akonow:

My favorite subject: Chopin

I’ll try to give you the story, in a nutshell…so to speak, although it is a bit complicated. Actually, there are quite a few opinions about THE breakup, and no one knows for certain. But I’ll give you the one that seems to make sense, according to Chopin’s letters and the thoughts of those close to the pair.

To her credit, Sand did take very good care of him for about 9 years, providing him a home, family life and nursing care. Chopin left Poland and his home, for good, at the age of 20, never to return. So it is quite understandable that he was quite happy with Sand and their “arrangement” for much of that time.

The action that was the apparent reason for the breakup was Chopin lending his carriage to Solange (Sand’s daughter). Sand and her daughter were constantly fighting, and Sand took Chopin’s kindness as his taking Solange’s side against hers. Really pretty silly, but there it was. Chopin was completely innocent as to why Sand was or would be so upset. After all, he was only trying to help Solange at a very difficult time. And, after watching her grow up from a child to a young woman, Chopin felt affection for her…like an uncle, if you will.

But Sand was tired of Chopin. Their relationship was not that of husband and wife but more mother and son. Even when Chopin was still in her household, she took lovers. A fact that either Chopin didn’t notice (hardly) or he chose to ignore, for he knew she had always been quite (ahem) sexually active.

Sand was not only upset, she was outraged! And she wanted all of Paris to know that it was Chopin who was at fault and not she. He was ungrateful and she was betrayed!! Again, so silly, but Sand had a very strong need to always be right. She could never admit any failings, unless, of course, they were that she cared too much. (Gag!) And being the gentleman that he was, he never uttered a disparaging word against her. In fact, he defended her stating that she was under much pressure and stress. In essence, she threw him out…bag and baggage.

Chopin was heartbroken, to put it mildly. His whole world fell apart. Not only did he lose the woman whom he loved and thought loved him, but he lost his home and family. That’s pretty rough for anyone and devastating for someone like Chopin.

To say that she was an inspiration to Chopin might not be really true. To say that she provided an environment that was conducive to Chopin’s creative spirit would be more accurate. Whether he could have composed what he did without Sand, is open to conjecture. I happen to think that genius always finds a way. Let's not forget that Chopin composed some of his most beautiful music BEFORE he even met Sand. So there!!

His health, which was failing at that time, took a real nosedive afterwards. Depression and despair played a big part in this. He composed little from this time to his death. Sand did try to see him when he was on his deathbed, but she was turned away by his sister.

So…that’s it.

Needless to say, she is not one of my favorite people.

Kathleen

Than you Kathleen. I started to reply to this and then decided I'd rather try to write a short essay explaining nuclear fusion or photosynthesis. You did well.

Ah what simplification!! Poor old George/Aurore gets no sympathy.. Chopin was pathetically ill and dependent for 10 years, plus they were already getting alienated well before the incident with the daughter, which I thought had to do with her choice of husband and not simply with the carriage. But I realize Sand does not stand a chance around here .. So dropping her cause, I do have a question. A while back I read about an attempt at analyzing his genetic profile to see if he died from a genetic lung disease (cystic fibrosis) rather than TB. I think permission to acquire a sample form his heart, preserved in Poland, was denied. But I never followed up on this. Does anyone know if there were any further sequelae, or why was cystic fibrosis was supected in the first place? I wonder if there are descendants form his family alive today (did his sisters have children?).

One trouble with getting at the heart of this is the world was only given Sand's side. As she'd never been one to let the truth stop her and was very conscious of her self image and also had a psychological need to see herself as always on the side of the angels her version of "The Truth" was hyped very much in her favor. Chopin kept his dignity the only way he could, by keeping his silence. The majority of their mutual friends, the "neutral observators" sided with Chopin and Sand found herself dropped and barred from some circles. The degree of devastation Chopin suffered was only revealed in rare cracks in that facade of resignation. As for his "pitiful" dependence that has been greatly exaggerated by Sand. He certainly was not financially dependent on her.

As for the business of the heart - The Polish government refused permission for DNA sampling, having consulted The Church and the surviving collateral descendents of the family. Two descendents were mentioned, one in favor of DNA testing, one against. Why was cystic fibrosis suspected in the first place? Because it makes an interesting academic theory and pathologists love to play around with stuff like this.

I personally saw nothing against it. Chopin himself requested that he be autopsied. (The cause of his death was actually cor pulmonale an irreversible cardiac deterioration caused by chronic lung disease.) This DNA examiniation might have been considered a continuation of that autopsy.

As for his sister's children - -His sister Emilia died at not quite 15, unmarried and childless. His sister Ludwicka married, had four children, and died in her midforties of asthma/pneumonia. His sister Isabella married, lived into her 70's but had no children. I don't know whether the "descendents" mentioned above were descendents of Ludwicka or more distant descendents of Chopin's mother's several brothers and sisters.

I knew Chopin wasn't financially dependent on "poor old George" and, obviously, he was most "pathetically ill and dependent [sic]" during the few brief years at the end of his life when he was alone and independent! But, as you know, I know much more about his music than the man and the details of his life, and I couldn't have articulated such a clear response.

Chopin's reticence to make plain any of those details reminds me of an old saw attributed to Shakespeare: "Discretion is the better part of valor."

Steven

Thanks for the explanation Frycek. The reason I asked about immediate relatives and the suspicion of Cystic fibrosis is the fact that it is a genetic disease (you did mention that one of the sisters had a lung problem)..so I was wondering if there was evidence of cystic fibrosis among family members that was recognized recently, thus prompting the request for DNA analysis. I doubt that the request was initiated only because pathologists love that stuff.
Whether he died from complications of pulmonary TB or CF, he must have been quite miserable due to his disease. I don't know enough about the details of their story but from what is known, he was clearly in a dependent mother/child healthy/chronically ill probably largely asexual and definitely not a very exclusive relationship (she was not monogamous and was not shy about it)..
In my opinion, his genius and creativity overshadow hers by far, but the minutiae of daily living tend to wear out the best of people .
I do think that some day they should allow his DNA to be analyzed. With so much known and about to be known about the human genome, we might learn a great deal. A point can be made though that this science is still relatively primitive and may not decipher much yet (beyond the somewhat voyeuristic details of what disease he had). A few Nobel laureates and prominent scientists have had their DNA decoded and nothing terribly interesting has come out of it..I do hope that heart is well preserved.. (is it still in brandy?)

George was already warming the Wamsuttas with another guy (or two) before the break-up. She complained she was living the life of a nun with Chopin. What always surprised me was: why they ever got together in the first place. Chopin rarely weighed more than 107 pounds on a good day, yet took on (arguably) the toughest woman of the 19th century! She was kind of looking for an excuse to split the sheets with Fred. I surmise that the relationship was always mostly intellectual. I looked on him as the Gore Vidal of his era. She took pretty good care of him for a while, gotta give her credit for that.

Actually it really is because pathologists love this stuff. There have been masters's theses and disertations written about "poor Fred's" cadaver. These are the same sort of folks who decided Poe died of rabies, that Mozart had a subdural hematoma, Beethoven died of lead poisoning -and Hitler only had one ball. (Obviously I love this stuff too.) There's never been any mention of any modern "descendants" with CF in any of the stuff I've read and I try to keep up with it. I work in pathology myself and also have chronic lung/heart problems - severe persistent asthma and pulmonary hypertension. Ludwicka was an asthmatic as were Frederyk, the youngest sister Emilia and the father, Nicholas (Mikoljai). Nicholas also died of some combination of heart/lung disease as well, but made it to about 70. Since Chopin's mother lived a healthy life (except for arthritis) into her 80's it's probable that the "weak chest" of the Chopin's came from the French, not the Polish side of the gene pool. According to Liszt, Chopin himself believed that.

The heart, taken from Paris and smuggled across the Polish border under Ludwicka's skirts, is still sealed in some sort of crystal vessel and preserved in cognac.

PS. I just remembered the "justification" those seeking the DNA sample gave was that the genius Chopin could become a sort of poster child/avatar for CF sufferers showing what could be achieved despite CF. Of course that means they'll have to wrestle him away from the TB people. http://www.iconsofeurope.com/tuberculosis.htm

Yeah, but he had such great hands - - - -

If she had affairs on the side, perhaps she wasn't referring to celibacy but instead meant that she was married to God!

Dang ... despite my own worshipful reverence for Chopin, it hadn't quite occurred to me that he might have been literally divine.

Steven

Steven: I think you hit the nail on the head. What an astute observation.


I did mention at the start of my post that I was giving a rather "simplified" version of the break-up. The final straw, as it were, was the incident about the carriage. But, as has been mentioned, Sand was weary of him and (in my opinion) grabbed onto this as her excuse.

Just why the two got together is another mystery. George, from the moment she first saw him, set out to add him to her long list of paramours. She was quite determined in her pursuit of him, even writing to a mutual friend, asking him to help her capture Chopin's heart. It's very possible that she may have wanted to outdo Countess Marie d'Agoult, who managed to capture Liszt's heart.

But Chopin was not attracted to her at all. From that first moment, he thought her strange, and wrote that he felt an aversion toward her and something about her repelled him.

However, although it took a couple of years of her constant hound-dogging, Chopin finally gave in. Perhaps he was flattered that such a strong-willed and famous woman would find him desirable. In one of his letters, he wrote: "She loves me! A good indication that he was amazed by her affection for him. No where in his letters does he state that he loved her, in the true romantic sense. He respected and admired her and grew to be quite fond of her, but true love??? I don't think so. Sand, herself, even wrote that he was in love with the idea of love, but found it impossible to give himself to another, completely. Chopin had his heart broken twice when he was still quite young. And perhaps this might have been the reason why he was fearful of it happening again.

There is also the fact that Sand was still married at this time. This didn't matter much to her, but to Chopin...well, he was quite concerned about what people would think or say. And he was very worried that his parents would find out. So he tried to keep their relationship as discrete as possible. While in Paris, they lived in separate apartments. However, they did share her home while in Nohant, but they took separate carriages and arrived at different times. Of course, no one in Paris was fooled, but Chopin was not one to flaunt what he considered a sin.

And yes, I do agree that she took very good care of him. And he was not always the easiest person to live with, aside from his illnesses. And many believe that his health began its final downfall while they were vacationing in a monastery on Valldemossa.

Chopin's heart is kept in a jar of cognac. And the Polish government still refuses DNA testing on it. The following is a quote taken from Wiki about why the test is deemed so essential.

'This is a very important request,' said Dr Michael Witt, of Warsaw's Institute of Molecular and Cell Biology. 'If we can prove Chopin suffered from cystic fibrosis, then we will have shown that a serious medical disability is still no barrier to achieving fame and success.'

Finally, Chopin was one of a kind. His music continues to delight and move many to tears after almost two hundred years. I admit my bias toward him, for it is his music alone that can speak to my emotions as none others can do.

George Sand rescued Chopin from the lonely life of a bachelor, giving him a family environment and caring for him during his illnesses, so that he could compose masterpieces in relative peace and comfort. Chopin rescued Sand from an eternity known only as a minor French author; now she is famous largely through him.

I'd call it about even.

Hey, I just thought of something (which has probably already been answered in the DtC thread. )

How did Aurore choose her pseudonym? Was it a literary or historical reference, or entirely the product of her imagination?

* * *

Oh dang, I checked Wikipedia before posting this to see if my question was answered there. (As familiar as I am with the entry for Chopin there, I think this may have been my first visit to the George Sand page !)

They refer to her liaison and collaboration with Jules Sandeau as the inspiration for her nom de plume—and that reminds me yet again of Julian Sands!

And check out what Baudelaire had to say about his contemporary:
Yipes, them's fightin' words!

Anyway, here's a different question: How is Sand pronounced in French?

My guess would have been [ʒɔʁʒ sɑ̃ ]), but Wikipedia gives [ʒɔʁʒ sɑ̃ d] instead (as though it were written George Sande).

The letter "d" at the end of a word wouldn't normally be articulated in French except in the context of a liaison with a word that follows it. If it's an exception (which is certainly possible), it comes as a shock and surprise to me.

I'm inclined to believe Wikipedia is incorrect here—it wouldn't be the first time!—but I'd be hesitant to edit it without confirmation from an expert. BruceD, are you reading this?

Steven

Numerian: Have you read any of Sand's novels? Or perhaps her 3 volume autobiography? I would venture to say that I could probably count on one hand the number of people who have done so (aside, of course, from her fans/admirers and biographers).

Whereas, Chopin's music reaches far and wide, and I would take another venture to say that there are few who haven't listened to, at least, one of his compositions. (Not counting the hip-hop generation, that is.) Literally, millions play his music, and I don't see how you could possibly call her a famous author. Her true notoriety comes from being Chopin's companion.

And I certainly could not call it "even." What she gave, she took away in spades!

Sorry, Steven, but I can't help you with the French pronounciation. And WOW, Baudelaire's description of her is pretty harsh. But then I didn't really know her, did I?

JMHO,
Kathleen

Sand's autobiography is three volumes?

Dang, she must have had many more "experiences" than I could have imagined. (I guess it wouldn't surprise Baudelaire, though!)

Steven

Wow.. You guys are knowledgeable and passionate !..
I have read (was made to read) La petite Fadette and La mare au diable and some other minor novels by George Sand. They were Ok , the latter being better than the former. She also wrote Elle et Lui about her relationship with Alfred de Musset.. interesting, passionate (was not "required reading").. I think her social impact was much greater than her literary legacy but I am not an expert. I wonder if anyone has read her novel "Lucrezia something. It is said to be about a relationship similar to that of George and Chopin, not very flattering of the latter. I looked briefly at amazon.fr and FNAC but did not find it.

N.B. the d in her name is pronounced..
N.B.2. that quote by Baudelaire!!! Yikes!! He writes much better when he is drugged and drunk ..another brilliant soul with a short life..

Steven :

Proper names - often depending on their origin - don't always observe the basic rules of French pronunciation. In this case [ʒɔʁʒ sɑ̃ d] is correct; the final 'd' is pronounced.

Regards,

Bruce, thanks very much indeed.

I should have suspected that les noms propres would lend themselves to exceptional pronunciations given the earlier bouleversements regarding Saint-Saëns (with its unexpected final "s") and Poulenc (which one might expect to rhyme with blanc rather than cinq).

When I "paged" you, I had no idea if you would notice. I'm glad you did!

Steven

Thanks for all this information, guys. I've started reading the 1,253,484-page thread on Chopin but I'm grateful that I got a little preview of what's in store for me in that thread.

There is a video biography of Chopin on youtube narrated by Andras Schiff (in 6 parts) that is excellent. Includes wonderful performances by Schiff of many pieces. Just go to youtube and search for "andras schiff chopin" and part one comes right up. Enjoy!

Wow Chopin is very close to our hearts here isn't he. Good to see that hasn't let your opinions of George Sand become biased in any way