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#468955 - 12/03/07 03:19 PM Beethoven op. 53
playadom Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/21/06
Posts: 1366
Loc: New Jersey
In bar 107(out of my Recordi edition), the first LH semiquavers for the first two beats go
F-Gb-Bb-Db

I have heard in Andras Schiff's lectures that this is correctly played with an Fb, and I've done a little research, and I think that the autograph had an Fb.

I find that it sounds better with an Fb.

Would it be appropriate to perform it this way? I'm not too sure, given that most editions show it as an F, and that Andras Schiff is only one source, and in addition, I've never seen the autograph.

I've also noticed that most performers totally ignore the una corda markings, but that's a completely different issue.
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#468956 - 12/03/07 03:55 PM Re: Beethoven op. 53
8ude Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 2050
Here's the autograph:

http://www.beethoven-haus-bonn.de/sixcms...thoven&_seite=9

See for yourself - it's F-flat... I agree, F-flat sounds much better.
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What you are is an accident of birth. What I am, I am through my own efforts. There have been a thousand princes and there will be a thousand more. There is one Beethoven.

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#468957 - 12/03/07 09:02 PM Re: Beethoven op. 53
Palindrome Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/22/01
Posts: 3914
Loc: Chicago, IL USA
8ude, that's a marvelous link! The entire autograph seems to be there.
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#468958 - 12/03/07 09:33 PM Re: Beethoven op. 53
playadom Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/21/06
Posts: 1366
Loc: New Jersey
 Quote:
Originally posted by 8ude:
Here's the autograph:

http://www.beethoven-haus-bonn.de/sixcms...thoven&_seite=9

See for yourself - it's F-flat... I agree, F-flat sounds much better. [/b]
WOW! This is amazing!
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#468959 - 12/04/07 08:37 AM Re: Beethoven op. 53
8ude Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 2050
Yeah - it is always fascinating to see an autograph score, especially one of Beethoven's, as it gives some interesting insights into how the composer went about the work, sections that gave them trouble, etc... This is one of his more legible scores - some of the others on that site make you wonder if they're even music (i.e. some of his sketch pads). For instance, I was looking over one of the sketch pads and I don't think I recognized any passages - most scribbles only barely resembled music...

Interesting stuff... \:\)
_________________________
What you are is an accident of birth. What I am, I am through my own efforts. There have been a thousand princes and there will be a thousand more. There is one Beethoven.

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#468960 - 12/04/07 11:39 AM Re: Beethoven op. 53
Janus K. Sachs Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/31/07
Posts: 1710
Loc: Betelgeuse, baby!
Wonderful link, 8ude!

I also find it interesting that, in the same measure in question, Beethoven apparently forgot to put a flat sign in front of the B of the left hand (unless my eyesight is going early) -- probably because it should so obviously be Bb. A B natural in that figure wouldn't make sense harmonically, whereas a harmonic case can be made for either Fb or F-natural in that measure. But if the manuscript were missing one could "confirm" the Fb through analogy to the Db two bars later (analogous part of the sequence, everything a minor third down from the measure in question). Goes to show you that even composer manuscripts can have errors!
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Die Krebs gehn zurücke,
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Die Karpfen viel fressen,
Die Predigt vergessen.

Die Predigt hat g'fallen.
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#468961 - 12/04/07 03:52 PM Re: Beethoven op. 53
calpiano Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/08/07
Posts: 146
Loc: California
 Quote:
Originally posted by Janus Sachs:
Goes to show you that even composer manuscripts can have errors! [/b]
Of course; composers are human as well. But while there can be error of omission, there can be no "error of addition."

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#468962 - 12/05/07 01:29 AM Re: Beethoven op. 53
wr Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 7791
There were a couple of other interesting things that jumped out at me when looking at the op. 52 autograph. The famous glisses are indicated by giving a fingering of thumb and pinky for all the octaves, rather than the word - was that the standard back then, or is the some possibility that he was actually expected very very fast octaves? Nah...

The other thing is that the coda was originally marked "presto" rather than "prestissimo".

wr

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