Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

Gifts and supplies for the musician
SEARCH
the Forums & Piano World

This custom search works much better than the built in one and allows searching older posts.
Ad (Piano Sing)
How to Make Your Piano Sing
(ad) Pearl River
Pearl River Pianos
(ad 125) Sweetwater - Digital Keyboards & Other Gear
Digital Pianos at Sweetwater
(ad) Pianoteq
(ad) P B Guide
Acoustic & Digital Piano Guide
Who's Online
85 registered (Anita Potter, Artur Gajewski, ando, anamnesis, 28 invisible), 1358 Guests and 15 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Quick Links to Useful Piano & Music Resources
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers
*Organs

Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano & Music Accessories
*Music School Listings
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Piano Books
*Piano Art, Pictures, & Posters
*Directory/Site Map
*Contest
*Links
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Screen Saver
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords
(ad) Estonia Piano
Estonia Pianos
Topic Options
#468955 - 12/03/07 03:19 PM Beethoven op. 53
playadom Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/21/06
Posts: 1366
Loc: New Jersey
In bar 107(out of my Recordi edition), the first LH semiquavers for the first two beats go
F-Gb-Bb-Db

I have heard in Andras Schiff's lectures that this is correctly played with an Fb, and I've done a little research, and I think that the autograph had an Fb.

I find that it sounds better with an Fb.

Would it be appropriate to perform it this way? I'm not too sure, given that most editions show it as an F, and that Andras Schiff is only one source, and in addition, I've never seen the autograph.

I've also noticed that most performers totally ignore the una corda markings, but that's a completely different issue.
_________________________
Practice makes permanent - Perfect practice makes perfect.

Top
Ad 800 (Pearl River)
Pearl River World's Best Selling Piano
#468956 - 12/03/07 03:55 PM Re: Beethoven op. 53
8ude Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 2050
Here's the autograph:

http://www.beethoven-haus-bonn.de/sixcms...thoven&_seite=9

See for yourself - it's F-flat... I agree, F-flat sounds much better.
_________________________
What you are is an accident of birth. What I am, I am through my own efforts. There have been a thousand princes and there will be a thousand more. There is one Beethoven.

Top
#468957 - 12/03/07 09:02 PM Re: Beethoven op. 53
Palindrome Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/22/01
Posts: 3916
Loc: Chicago, IL USA
8ude, that's a marvelous link! The entire autograph seems to be there.
_________________________
There is no end of learning. -Robert Schumann Rules for Young Musicians

Top
#468958 - 12/03/07 09:33 PM Re: Beethoven op. 53
playadom Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/21/06
Posts: 1366
Loc: New Jersey
 Quote:
Originally posted by 8ude:
Here's the autograph:

http://www.beethoven-haus-bonn.de/sixcms...thoven&_seite=9

See for yourself - it's F-flat... I agree, F-flat sounds much better. [/b]
WOW! This is amazing!
_________________________
Practice makes permanent - Perfect practice makes perfect.

Top
#468959 - 12/04/07 08:37 AM Re: Beethoven op. 53
8ude Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 2050
Yeah - it is always fascinating to see an autograph score, especially one of Beethoven's, as it gives some interesting insights into how the composer went about the work, sections that gave them trouble, etc... This is one of his more legible scores - some of the others on that site make you wonder if they're even music (i.e. some of his sketch pads). For instance, I was looking over one of the sketch pads and I don't think I recognized any passages - most scribbles only barely resembled music...

Interesting stuff... \:\)
_________________________
What you are is an accident of birth. What I am, I am through my own efforts. There have been a thousand princes and there will be a thousand more. There is one Beethoven.

Top
#468960 - 12/04/07 11:39 AM Re: Beethoven op. 53
Janus K. Sachs Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/31/07
Posts: 1711
Loc: Betelgeuse, baby!
Wonderful link, 8ude!

I also find it interesting that, in the same measure in question, Beethoven apparently forgot to put a flat sign in front of the B of the left hand (unless my eyesight is going early) -- probably because it should so obviously be Bb. A B natural in that figure wouldn't make sense harmonically, whereas a harmonic case can be made for either Fb or F-natural in that measure. But if the manuscript were missing one could "confirm" the Fb through analogy to the Db two bars later (analogous part of the sequence, everything a minor third down from the measure in question). Goes to show you that even composer manuscripts can have errors!
_________________________
Die Krebs gehn zurücke,
Die Stockfisch bleiben dicke,
Die Karpfen viel fressen,
Die Predigt vergessen.

Die Predigt hat g'fallen.
Sie bleiben wie alle.

Top
#468961 - 12/04/07 03:52 PM Re: Beethoven op. 53
calpiano Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/08/07
Posts: 146
Loc: California
 Quote:
Originally posted by Janus Sachs:
Goes to show you that even composer manuscripts can have errors! [/b]
Of course; composers are human as well. But while there can be error of omission, there can be no "error of addition."

Top
#468962 - 12/05/07 01:29 AM Re: Beethoven op. 53
wr Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 7983
There were a couple of other interesting things that jumped out at me when looking at the op. 52 autograph. The famous glisses are indicated by giving a fingering of thumb and pinky for all the octaves, rather than the word - was that the standard back then, or is the some possibility that he was actually expected very very fast octaves? Nah...

The other thing is that the coda was originally marked "presto" rather than "prestissimo".

wr

Top

Moderator:  Brendan, Kreisler 
What's Hot!!

Forums Rules & Help
-------------------
ADVERTISE
on Piano World

The world's most popular piano web site.
-------------------
PIANO BOOKS
Interesting books about the piano, pianists, piano history, biographies, memoirs and more!
(ad) Yamaha CP Music Rest Promo
Yamaha CP Music Rest Promo
Ad (Seiler/Knabe)
Knabe Pianos
(ad) HAILUN Pianos
Hailun Pianos - Click for More
(125ad) Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad) Lindeblad Piano
Lindeblad Piano Restoration
(ad) Piano Music Sale - Dover Publications
Piano Music Sale
Sheet Music Plus (125)
Sheet Music Plus Featured Sale
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Bob Marley - Is this love piano cover
by Danijelcro
11/28/14 07:28 AM
android - QWERTY bluetooth keyboard as a midi piano
by mathy10544
11/28/14 06:30 AM
Black Friday is here - Seen any deals?
by MeghanM
11/28/14 01:16 AM
MIDI in on a Kawai VPC-1...
by pocoapoco
11/28/14 12:35 AM
Just joined
by wise_manzard
11/27/14 10:20 PM
Forum Stats
77074 Members
42 Forums
159413 Topics
2341736 Posts

Max Online: 15252 @ 03/21/10 11:39 PM
Gift Ideas for Music Lovers!
Find the Perfect Gift for the Music Lovers on your List!
Visit our online store today.

Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
|
Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World | Donate | Link to Us | Classifieds |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter | Press Room |


copyright 1997 - 2014 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission