Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Pianist Corner An unusual dilemma

I would like to draw your attention to these recordings I just made.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=7-S9zIx9XVY
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=F9xYrHqLz2w
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Y_7ycUUPFYI

They are three extracts from Scarbo by Ravel, which I have been fooling around with for just over a month now, and have managed to learn about 4 minutes worth of material from it, and that slowly continues to grow. If anyone remembers, my skill level just over a year ago was no higher than Rachmaninoff's C# Minor prelude. Most of the other stuff I could play was around grade 5-7 standard. I've come a long way in just a year, having learned the Rachmaninoff G Minor and B Minor preludes on top of some Debussy and Chopin. The thing is, all of these pieces took considerably longer to learn that the bits of Scarbo I have. I know its not the whole thing, but its still a pretty huge achievement considering its one of the most difficult solo pieces and I'm mostly self taught. Can somebody please explain to me why I have no considerable trouble with something like this, but I can't play a Bach fugue or a Beethoven/Mozart sonata for the life of me? Neither can I sight read, or play my scales/arpeggios.

Thanks
x

May I say nice job.

To answer your question, I would venture forth and guess that this music makes more sense to you, whether you know it or not, than classical sonatas or fugues. They all have different challenges.

I'm going to be the miserable git of this topic - by my reckoning thats about 6-7 pages out of the 25 in my edition - believe me there is some nasty stuff which you may or may not have touched yet (the double note trills in both hands, comparatively quieter than how you play at the pp marking before, those legato 2nd passages, and various other parts which prevented me from getting it to a 'concertable' level). Also factor in how the majority of passages in those exerpts should have been played at p/pp etc, I barely noticed the contrasts between those and the forte passages. I noticed its a digital instrument, but that shouldn't be an issue.

I could probably pick it apart a bit more but this isn't what you asked. As you said you are fooling around with it, this isn't really an issue at all - I'm just pointing out that the "no considerable trouble" you are having with those pages isn't really accurate. I'd say that learning that amount of music in a month isn't really indicative of finding a piece no trouble to learn. Now a Bach fugue could be 6 pages long - could you learn that in a month? There are Beethoven Sonata movements that aren't far off that either. I don't see a dilemma here at all. I think the problem, if any, is simply that you aren't putting enough effort into the 'meat and veg', to heavily analogize the matter, and concentrating on the dessert. (Basically - a lack of discipline, possibly caused by being self taught) Yes its nice to say that you can play a small amount of one of the most difficult solo pieces (I would also dispute that heavily, considering that as a standalone piece Scarbo isn't substantial enough to compete) after little experience, but I feel that you won't benefit from it in the long run. There is no reason why you couldn't play a Bach fugue, or a classical sonata, other than you don't have the willpower to stick to them.

How are you on finishing pieces? Do you finish all the pieces that you have attempted in the past? I think a good exercise for you would be to write a list of all the pieces you have attempted and not finished, and gradually finish each one (not just to the best of your abilities, but so that each one is a presentable piece of music). That would certainly give you the willpower to stick to learning pieces that you may not enjoy playing (or showing off..?! just a thought) to other people, but musically would be just as appreciated...

bruce-san :

To add to what Max W has said and saying some things similar - and, believe me, I'm not trying to gang up on you; I'm just hoping to get some perspective on the issues you raised.

How much time have you put into seriously working on a Bach or Beethoven or Mozart work? Have you worked on any of them with the same diligence and intensity that you (may have) put into the Ravel?
Do you really feel that what you have worked on and accomplished of 'Scarbo' is representative of the work's technical and interpretive difficulties?

Anyone with the technical and musical skills to make progress on the Ravel work surely has at least the technical equipment to handle Beethoven and Mozart.

While it might not be the route you choose to follow, it's often not only beneficial but also more efficient to work on complete works that are within your grasp rather than work on "bits and pieces" of larger, more difficult works that you won't be able to finish. I don't see any long-term rewards in that line of approach.

Regards,

Max - only fugue 20 and 24 are 6 pages in my edition. I think a month is quite reasonable to learn either one, if that is what you are focusing on. Just to clarify, by learn you mean memorize and play at tempo, or play at concert level? Obviously the latter is a longer pursuit.

bruce-san, sorry to steal your thread but:
I have wanted to learn the Bmin fugue, and just to prove myself right, I am going to learn it and log how much time it takes. I think I can memorize it in 2 weeks at 2 hours a day. That's a page in 2 days (or 4 hours), if I rest on Sunday. At 12 measures a page, I need to memorize a measure in 20 minutes. Anyone who can't memorize a measure in 20 minutes has a learning disability, and I don't mean that in a deragatory way. And I have to do 6 measures a day in succession and connect them. Then another two weeks to get it a least as good as Gould plays it. j/k. 2 weeks to get it as good as I can play it.

One question I have looking at the first few measures. The second entrance of the subject is not in F#min, it's in Emin, except for the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th notes which are the right notes in F#. I thought that the one rule for a fugue was that the subject comes the second time up a 5th.
Do you know any other fugues that break the rule?

burce-san, exactly what difficulty do you have with the Bach fugues or Mozart sonatas?
You said you can't play scales, does that mean you don't know scales or just cannot play them smoothly at a decent tempo?
If you don't know scales, then I could see you having problems initially with the scale passages in Mozart, not so much in the fugues.
One difficulty that the fugues present, and I don't know if the Ravel piece does, is finger-switching. And also using your hand to hold down notes while you play other notes above or below. But I don't think either are too hard.
But others have said it is a matter of how much work you put into it.

One thing I find annoying about posts like this is that the poster never takes the time to articulate their problem very accurately. Even if you don't know why you can't play a Bach fugue, at least say what the specific difficulty is.

What I've filmed here isn't all I can play, I've learned the first 11 pages at a relatively competent speed. I know I haven't overcome all of the difficulties in the piece, but I have overcome a fair number of them. Enough to make a point anyway. I haven't prided myself in learning 'a few bits' of the piece because I intend to follow it all through to the end eventually, the same way I would learn any other piece. This is just a snapshot of how it looks at the moment. Also bear in mind the lack of variety in dynamics is largely to do with the digital piano and the camcorder microphone compressing the sound.

The whole point is that this piece was a side project. Just something to test myself and have a bit of fun with (it is a lot of fun to play), nothing more serious. The majority of my time over the last few months has been spent trying to improve my Bach Mozart and Beethoven with my teacher. I've been learning Mozart's C Minor sonata, Bach's prelude and fugue No.6 from Book 1, and Beethovens Sonata No.19 in G Minor. The fact is that it still takes so much longer to get the music under my hands. I think it took the first movement of the G Minor sonata just over a month to learn, and yet this is the easiest one he wrote.

When I said I can't play scales I mean't mostly that I can't play them evenly, and some of them I don't know. But what I was really trying to emphasise by that point was that I lack almost all of the other key factors in playing piano other than actually playing the pieces. This is probably the reason why I have more of a problem with traditional piano music like Beethoven.

Its just so frustrating how I can excel in some areas, and be utterly useless in others. I love Beethoven just as much as Ravel and would love to be able to play more of him, but it just seems so beyond my grasp at the moment, wheras the Ravel doesn't.

Thanks for your responses.
x

bruce-san states "When I said I can't play scales I mean't mostly that I can't play them evenly, and some of them I don't know. But what I was really trying to emphasise by that point was that I lack almost all of the other key factors in playing piano other than actually playing the pieces. This is probably the reason why I have more of a problem with traditional piano music like Beethoven. "

I think we you really mean is that this poses a more obvious problem in Beethoven and Mozart since you're much more exposed in this type of music than in your Ravel. However - if you listen closely to Ravel, you exhibit the exact same difficulty - unevenness and lack of control - it's just not as obvious with all that's going on.

So, there's no problem with working on some of this fun stuff on the side, but you have to put in the effort to build your foundation of technique to go along with it.

keep plugging away - you're obviously making progress.

Bruce-san, your playing is impressive - you use your body well. I think you prefer playing with a wide brush, that's why Bach, Mozart etc. you find difficult. For them you need to know how to use only fingers.

JW, if it's Book I, B min it's what is called a tonal answer.