Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

Gifts and supplies for the musician
SEARCH
the Forums & Piano World

This custom search works much better than the built in one and allows searching older posts.
(ad 125) Sweetwater - Digital Keyboards & Other Gear
Digital Pianos at Sweetwater
(ad) Pearl River
Pearl River Pianos
(ad) Pianoteq
(ad) P B Guide
Acoustic & Digital Piano Guide
Ad (Piano Sing)
How to Make Your Piano Sing
Who's Online
79 registered (angga888, AZNpiano, ando, Anne H, Baroque Style, 25 invisible), 1039 Guests and 13 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Quick Links to Useful Piano & Music Resources
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers
*Organs

Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano & Music Accessories
*Music School Listings
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Piano Books
*Piano Art, Pictures, & Posters
*Directory/Site Map
*Contest
*Links
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Screen Saver
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords
(ad) Estonia Piano
Estonia Pianos
Topic Options
#479739 - 01/06/08 03:21 PM Question about Allegretto and Moderato....
Mike090280 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/26/06
Posts: 159
Loc: Texas
Are these two tempos the same? The reason I am asking this is because I looked the terms up in a music dictionary and they both said they were between Andante and Allegro. And a second definition for Allegretto stated a, short piece played fast.

I have started learning the Haydn sonata no.31 in E major and the first movement is marked Moderato and the second is Allegretto. Well, I was watching Marc-Andre Hamelin's performance on his new dvd and it seems he takes the second movement about the same tempo. So, are these two tempo markings the same?

Thanks

Mike

Top
Ad 800 (Pearl River)
Pearl River World's Best Selling Piano
#479740 - 01/06/08 04:58 PM Re: Question about Allegretto and Moderato....
PoStTeNeBrAsLuX Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/31/05
Posts: 2618
Loc: Geneva, Switzerland
Mike,

When I was researching Beethoven Op54, it would appear that the term allegretto has not always meant the same thing, and gradually 'got faster' as time went by, and became a lot closer to allegro than to andante. E.g. Charles Rosen asserts that many pianists play the 2nd movt of Op54 far too fast, as they are applying the later interpretation of the term rather than what LvB intended in 1804 for that particular piece. He supports his theory with numerous examples of where a faster tempo blurs certain subtleties and transitions in the work, as well as countering other indications (e.g. the two initial dolce directions) which mean the piece becomes rather garbled at faster speeds.

Also, as well as being a tempo indication, allegretto is also one of mood, usually being one of graceful cheerfulness, though not quite as playful as giocoso would be, for example. So even if a performer were to interpret allegretto and moderato to be approximately the same tempo, there would probably still be a notable difference in the character of the piece.

Michael B.
_________________________
There are two rules to success in life: Rule #1. Don't tell people everything you know.

Top
#479741 - 01/06/08 11:10 PM Re: Question about Allegretto and Moderato....
signa Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/06/04
Posts: 8483
Loc: Ohio, USA
Beethoven Tempest 3rd movement is allegretto, but many play it as allegro, and some even faster. i like it fast, but not that fast.

Top
#479742 - 01/07/08 05:36 AM Re: Question about Allegretto and Moderato....
Robert Kenessy Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/07/07
Posts: 394
Loc: Enebyberg Sweden
I think allegretto means 'a bit allegro', allegro meaning fast. Moderato means approximately 'moderate', although moderato is a perfect tense (is "moderated" english?).
I would therefore regard allegretto as faster. I strongly agree with the mood annotation about graceful cheerfulness, for example the last movement of Beethoven's sixth symphony.
_________________________
Robert Kenessy

.. it seems to me that the inherent nature [of the piano tone] becomes really expressive only by means of the present tendency to use the piano as a percussion instrument - Béla Bartók, early 1927.

Top
#479743 - 01/07/08 06:05 AM Re: Question about Allegretto and Moderato....
keystring Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11851
Loc: Canada
Moderato is strictly tempo: moderate speed, slower than allegro, faster than andante (which is the "walking speed"). Allegro is moderately fast, and also indicates a character or mood. Allegretto is *slightly less fast* than allegro. My music dictionary says that it often implies a lighter texture or character. The word allegro means "cheerful". Tempo markings often also imply mood.

** Edit: Correction - I wrote "faster" originally. Thanks for the correction PoSt.

Top
#479744 - 01/07/08 06:20 AM Re: Question about Allegretto and Moderato....
PoStTeNeBrAsLuX Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/31/05
Posts: 2618
Loc: Geneva, Switzerland
keystring:
Allegretto is faster than allegro[/b]

Er no, it isn't[1]. Not even once it got faster \:\) . Allegretto of course means "little allegro" being an Italian diminutive[2], and was originally fairly 'not fast,' e.g. minuet movements were often marked allegretto, and as we all know, minuets weren't the quickest dances on the planet.

Allegro is moderately fast[/b]

Allegro is usually translated as 'fast and lively.' OK, not as fast as presto (or indeed prestissimo), but still a good step up from andante, moderato or allegretto. Of course, combination likes allegro moderato require a little more thought and discretion on the part of the performer ;\) .

-Michael B.
[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tempo
[2] c.f. andantino
_________________________
There are two rules to success in life: Rule #1. Don't tell people everything you know.

Top
#479745 - 01/07/08 06:33 AM Re: Question about Allegretto and Moderato....
keystring Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11851
Loc: Canada
Thanks for the correction, PoSt. I should not try to read dictionaries this early in the morning.

If Moderato is a bit slower than allegro, and allegretto is a bit slower than moderato, are allegretto and moderato almost the same tempo, but allegretto has the light mood while moderato doesn't necessarily?

Top
#479746 - 01/07/08 08:01 PM Re: Question about Allegretto and Moderato....
wr Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 8027
A tempo marking is always in relation to the piece to which it belongs, and it isn't particularly useful to think of it relative to other tempo indications that the composer didn't use. For example, a pianist might choose exactly the same absolute speed (in terms of beats per minute) for the opening allegro of Beethoven's G major sonata, op. 14, no. 2 and for the allegretto rondo of his op. 22, and have that be a perfectly viable choice. In other words, an allegro may not necessarily be "faster" than an allegretto, in real terms; it all depends on the piece under consideration.

Top

Moderator:  Brendan, Kreisler 
What's Hot!!
Christmas Header
Christmas Lights at Piano World Headquarters in Maine 2014
-------------------
The December Free Piano Newsletter
-------------------
Forums Rules & Help
-------------------
ADVERTISE
on Piano World

The world's most popular piano web site.
-------------------
PIANO BOOKS
Interesting books about the piano, pianists, piano history, biographies, memoirs and more!
(ad) Yamaha CP Music Rest Promo
Yamaha CP Music Rest Promo
(ad) HAILUN Pianos
Hailun Pianos - Click for More
Ad (Seiler/Knabe)
Knabe Pianos
(125ad) Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad) Lindeblad Piano
Lindeblad Piano Restoration
Sheet Music Plus (125)
Sheet Music Plus Featured Sale
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Bottom of hammer hitting top of damper on upright
by JoeThePro
12/21/14 10:09 PM
Getting better
by Kekewak
12/21/14 07:35 PM
Pearl River vs. Samick
by Zekk
12/21/14 03:41 PM
Kawai vs. Yamaha: what to choose
by SeeSharp
12/21/14 02:19 PM
Disklavier Pro Alternatives? C5X Value for money?
by bryan77
12/21/14 01:15 PM
Forum Stats
77391 Members
42 Forums
160048 Topics
2350355 Posts

Max Online: 15252 @ 03/21/10 11:39 PM
Gift Ideas for Music Lovers!
Find the Perfect Gift for the Music Lovers on your List!
Visit our online store today.

Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
|
Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World | Donate | Link to Us | Classifieds |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter | Press Room |


copyright 1997 - 2014 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission