Hello there!

I have a piano that’s unvoiced, very unvoiced! And that guy who said that he can fix it hasn’t come. And I don’t think he will come, because I have waited a half year. I started too play for a half a year, and I’m concerned to be very unmusical if I play on that piano. What should I do?! Please help me! Should I just practice and not be so concerned?
Thanks.

Maybe find a different technician? One who will come?

Never stop playing, never, never......
Call LaGamma in the Bronx yellow pages.. leave him a message, and he will get back to you in a few days...
Call Beethoven Pianos in Manhattan, they have technicians.
Good Luck.. You have music in your heart and you are musical, even if the piano is not the best. Keep playing, never stop...It is your life.

LaPianista :

The poster is writing from Norway! Why would he call someone in the Bronx or in Manhattan?

Wolfi --

My grandparents were born in Norway not far from where you live (Nordfjordeid and Orsta, which looks to be around 300 km southwest of Smola), so I'm happy to have the chance to help out a fellow Norseman piano player. If I'm reading the map right, you live on a coastal island, which means there probably aren't any piano technicians close by. Just scouting the net with Google, I've found something that might be of help to you. There's a very advanced system for changing the touch and regulation of pianos known as the Stanwood Touch Design System. I don't know much about it, but it appears you have to be a pretty skilled, advanced piano technician to install and service these systems. On Stanwood's web site, they show several technicians in Norway who service their systems. I understand that your problems are with voicing rather than regulation, but anyone who can handle a Stanwood installation is very likely to be able to help you with voicing too.

The guy closest to you is in Kristiansund, which is less than 100 km from Smola. If he isn't available (or, more likely, is the same guy you've already had trouble getting to help you), the Stanwood site also lists three other techs in and around Bergen. That's quite a bit further away from you, and you might have to pay them a lot of extra money to pay you a visit (if they'd be willing to do it at all). More likely, they may know of other technicians closer to you who they can recommend to help you.

The link to the Stanwood web page about Norwegian installers is as follows:

http://www.stanwoodpiano.com/no.htm

Good luck with your search -- hope this information is helpful. And your English is way better than my Norwegian -- no need to apologize for it.

I somehow sense from the original post that the poster perhaps actually means tuning, rather than voicing, given the worries about being unmusical in the playing. In addition, the poster has only been playing for half a year and most beginners (and even advanced players) do not even know about voicing and regulation issues. Even I would not have known about voicing and regulation had I not hung around these forums for the last 3 years. So maybe all that is required is a tuning?

edit: i wrote this before seeing roxane's post, and i think she is probably right. he probably just means his piano is out of tune. so please disregard what i wrote here, that is, unless you happen to have a european grand piano that needs voicing in a remote location! then what follows in this post might be helpful to you.

---------

phil, i know you mean well, but i do not think this is good advice at all!!

i am speaking as someone who also lives in a very remote area where there are few technicians, and who also had a serious voicing problem that needed to be addressed. i went through a terribly steep--and painful--learning curve about this over three years' time, and there are certain basic principles i learned.

the first one is that just because someone is a gifted technician, or very experienced, it does not mean they are any good at voicing. it does not mean that at all!

in fact, if they have specialized in something like stanwood regulations, the odds are very good that they don't have enough experience with voicing to be trustworthy with your piano.

i mean no offense to techs by this at all. but the fact is that voicing is a highly refined specialty, and the best voicers are the ones who have specialized in voicing, who have made voicing their singular passion.

the next thing to understand is that it is very difficult, no matter how gifted your voicer is, to voice a piano in one visit. voicing develops gradually over time. to parachute in and try to voice a piano all at once can be a disaster because the time pressure makes the voicer go further than he might ordinarily. the best way to voice is do a bit this week, play it awhile, then do a little more, play it awhile. otherwise, hammers can easily be taken so far at once that the tone is ruined and new hammers are needed. a good voicer will not do this to a piano, but with time pressures, and limited availability, he will be tempted to go too far on one visit.

having said this, it may be necessary to do it that way. it certainly isn't optimal.

here is what i advise. contact the manufacturer of your piano and find out who they recommend. you need a voicer who is
1. mechanically gifted
2. aurally gifted
3. knows what mechanical things to do to your particular variety of hammer to get the results he is able to hear--this takes years of experience, hopefully with your make of hammers.
4. knows and loves the particular tonal personality of your make of piano and won't try to turn it into a sound that doesn't work for your piano's scale design.

this is a very complex area. your safest bet is to contact the manufacturer and get a recommendation from them. you may have to fly someone in. if you do, recognize that a good voicing normally takes a few visits. you may have to wait a year in between visits, but just don't try to get a perfect result all in one go.

seeking perfection can be very destructive when it comes to pianos.

spoken as the voice of someone who has been there, done that!

roxane, you make a good point. and it raises one more point i intended to make:

before you decide you need voicing at all, first have a technician thoroughly regulate the action and put a really good tuning on the piano. often what we perceive as a voicing problem is really a tuning and/or regulation problem.

i hope all you need is tuning! then you will have a much easier time of it.

how old is the piano? if it is new and you loved it in the showroom you should not need much, if any voicing.

Unvoiced? What do you mean by that?

Out of tone? Bad action? echoing? Bad pedal action?

Since you have mentioned that you are waiting for a tuner, maybe it's just out of tune? I hope your strings are in good shape....but until you get it fixed, I don't think you should be pounding too much on it.

Several years ago, my wife and I were on vacation in Sicily. We ate at a pizzeria/trattoria where there was a grand piano, of all things. The owner sat down to play, and played a Chopin Waltz, opus 64. I recognized it, and blurted out the word Chopin, whereupon the owner, realizing that I could play the piano, invited me to play. Unfortunately, I can't remember the brand name of the piano. (It may have been a Yamaha, I've seen a lot of them in Italy, but I'm not sure.) Well of course, having had a few glasses of wine, and being something of a ham, I sat down to play. The piano played nicely, and we had a fun evening. However, there was one very peculiar characteristic of this piano, which I have never seen before. One of the octaves, about two octaves above middle C, was much louder than the rest of the piano. I don't know what caused it, but obviously this piano needed some kind of voicing. It may have been that this whole section of the piano had been repaired, and that the hammers for a whole octave were replaced with something different from the other octaves. Anyway, I got used to it after a few minutes, since I have a lot of experience playing bad pianos.

Damn that was hilarious.....the guy from "Norway, Møre og Romsdal, Smøla |" says his piano needs voicing and he's recommended a Bronx yellow pages LMAO!!


Good stuff.

Pique,

I know you mean well, but I do not think this is good advice at all! Actually, regarding voicing, Phil's original advice was much, much better.

Although some of the things you say, in a general way, are not incorrect, I feel I must correct some of your very wrong assumptions.

Regarding technicians who have gone through the Stanwood training. I do not think that the Stanwood system is a magic bullet, but it actually goes beyond mere voicing into areas such
as hammer weight and action design. No amount of expert voicing can change the sound of a piano in a way that is related to the hammer's weight. This is much more fundamental than voicing. Also, many voicing issues are actually action design and regulation issues, and a Stanwood trained tech, by definition, has a level of integrity and knowledge that goes well beyond most techs. Even if they don't totally agree with many of Stanwood's assertions, the training and approach yield a deep knowledge about how piano's work, at a very deep and fundamental level. And it is often techs who have the most integrity, and voicing skill, who pursue this approach as they realize that voicing cannot overcome design issues.

I would say all other things being equal, a tech who is certified in Stanwood touch design is MUCH MORE LIKELY to be a good voicer than one who has not gone through that training.

The techs who are the best voicers, are not voicing specialists. That is absurd. The techs who are the best voicers must be expert technicians, tuning and regulating, and have a very deep and thorough understanding of global issues of how a piano works, both action and belly. Voicing comes last.

kieth, as i said, i am not casting aspersions on stanwood techs. and you are right, a global knowledge of the piano and regulating issues are essential knowledge for a good voicer.

voicing does come last, after all of those other skills have been mastered, and after all of those other issues have been addressed in the piano in question.

but just because someone has mastered everything up to voicing, doesn't mean they have mastered voicing. that was my point. just because someone is a gifted tech doesn't mean they are a gifted voicer.

while a stanwood tech is no doubt going to be of a much higher caliber than the average tech, it says nothing about his voicing ability, which goes above and beyond the skillset involved in fine regulating work.

it may well be that stanwood techs are more likely to have pursued that avenue because they learned that voicing alone does not solve problems. they may have a deep interest in the subject. maybe some are also skilled voicers.

but unless they have a reputation as voicers, i wouldn't want to find out on my piano. their reputations are for excellence in regulating issues. even among the very best in any profession, different practitioners have strengths in different areas. someone may be a masterful general surgeon, but would you want them doing your open heart surgery if that wasn't their specialty? (not a bad metaphor for having your piano voiced!)

my advice was to find someone who has a reputation as a voicer. and the voicing specialists i know are indeed already expert technicians and have a very deep and thorough knowledge of the piano. they've taken their skills all the way to the highest level.

you haven't really said anything that contradicts what i wrote. you seem to think i'm saying something negative about stanwood techs, but i'm not. i'm just saying that if voicing is really what you need, then go for someone with a great reputation in that specific area.

Pique,

Please read this statement you wrote again, and see if there is anything negative in it about Stanwood techs.

I don't have time to argue with you and correct all of the other naive and just plain incorrect things you have written.

Again, I know you mean well, and for some strange reason it is important to you to appear as some kind of expert in this area, but much of your advice is potentially going to do more damage than good, and the few true generalities that are hidden within the nonsense you have written don't help much either.

kieth,
i'm speaking from my experience and my world view, which i stated very clearly. people reading here can take what they wish from it, or leave it. i've also seen statements made by "experts" here that are inaccurate or misguided, many times. if they aren't immune, then i'm sure i'm not, either. what i stated is a matter of opinion, based on my preferences. i would not call a stanwood tech for a voicing job. i'd call a voicer.

if someone has other preferences, they can do something different.

i can see how you would take my statement as a slam against stanwood techs, but i've already elaborated on exactly what i meant by that and i won't do so again.

i'll continue to share my experiences whenever i think it might help someone. helping other people avoid potential disasters with their pianos is more important to me than what you or anyone else in the business may think of me. plenty of dealers, i am sure, would not care for me sharing the truth of my experiences at all. i'm here for the consumer, not for them. if the person who asked the question doesn't think my advice is helpful, they don't have to take it.

why don't you just state your own opinions and experience and move on, rather than attacking me for sharing mine? it's not in the best interests of the forum to discourage anyone from sincerely sharing their opinions and experiences. one of the great values in this place is its diversity.

people here know i'm not an expert because i've never pretended to be one. i've always just been myself, which is someone who doesn't fit the narrow box you keep seeking to put me in.

Peek,

You make it sound like being a Stanwood tech, and being good at voicing pianos are mutually exclusive. This is incorrect. Having gone through the Stanwood training, and applying it makes it more likely that one will be good at voicing. Based on what you have written, I am sure you have virtually no understanding of what a Stanwood touch design entails, or how it relates to the sound of the piano, and the voicing. Please do not take this as anything personal, it is not. It is not a criticism of you as a person, it is just pointing out the erroneous opinions and poor advice you keep offering. Much of the advice you are giving may seem of value to the unsuspecting, because you write as if you are an authority on the subject.

And I disagree with your other statement. You are constantly pretending to be an expert here. And people who have not been here long enough to understand where you are coming from could easily be fooled by your writing style.

Now, rather than constantly trying to defend what you have written, why not just let it speak for itself? It is simple enough for anyone to understand. And people can read your point of view, and then have some balance by reading my point of view, and then decide for themselves what to do. Isn't that what PianoWorld is all about?

how can someone who plainly says they are not a tech but a consumer with a lot of experience dealing with these issues from the consumer's viewpoint be pretending to be an expert?

i have no problem with letting my opinions stand against yours or anyone else's. what i do have a problem with is you suggesting that i not post at all, and that you make this into a completely unwarranted personal attack.

you don't agree with my opinion, but i am stating opinions, not facts. opinions, by definition, cannot be inaccurate. there is no such thing as an "erroneous opinion."

you don't like my writing style? ts, as my mother used to say.

imo, you are being touchy because you are a stanwood tech. why not instead look at what i wrote instead of your emotional reaction to it? i did not saying being a stanwood tech and being a good voicer are mutually exclusive. you just keep on insisting on framing it that way.

i certainly agree that anyone reading here can decide for themselves the merit of what i have written. and i'll let them decide.

gotta run. you can have the last word, keet, if you want it.

I would bet any amount of money that you will not be able to control yourself and allow anyone else to " have the last word" as you so patronizingly put it.

You are entitled to your opinions, I never said otherwise. I never suggested that you don't post your opinion. I am just offering mine. Am I not entitled to post my opinion?

I like your writing style fine. Your writing style is better than many who post here. It is the substance of your writing, when it is about voicing and other technical piano related issues that I usually object to.

By the way, I suggest you look up "erroneous" in the dictionary. I think it will expand your understanding of the word. Of course, this is only my opinion. But I don't think it is an erroneous one.

IMO, you are being touchy because you don't like it when someone disagrees with your opinions, or points out their erroneous nature. Why not instead look at what I wrote instead of just emotionally reacting to it? You may just learn something.

Now, breathe deeply, and try to allow someone else to have the last word.

If I am not mistaken Pique had the last word several weeks ago, in a similar discussion. Her last word if I recall, was I am fed up with the techs and their opionions, and was leaving the forum.

Who is Phil?

It's me, more easily found under my forum screen name Emanuel Ravelli (see reply to Wolfi higher in this thread).