Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Pianist Corner Where Were the Women?

Has anyone but me ever wondered why there weren't any women masters of music from the classical/romantic era? It can't be because they didn't possess the intelligence, nor even because they didn't have the time. True, the "middle" class were busy with household duties, raising children, trying to keep their husbands happy, etc. But there were many aristocratic ladies who had plenty of time and talent (i.e. Clara Schumann). If some possessed the viruosity to play Chopin, Lizst and Beethoven's compositions, why didn't any venture out into composition? Or was it a case, for want of a better expression, of the "glass ceiling?" I'm ready to get educated by those who know of female composers, so bring it on.

Why were there relatively few known female scientists?

Why were there relatively few well known female painters?


Women just were not expected to do these things that men were expected to do. This changed a bit in the 20th century.

There were, of course, some exceptions, but for the most part women were not equally accepted as men.


Clara Schumann, the wife of Robert Schumann, was a composer and pianist.

Amy Beach (Mrs. H.H.A. Beach) was "the first American woman composer." during the late 1800's, early 1900's. I've heard a little bit of her music, including the "Gaelic" Symphony, and it's very romantic and beautiful. I played one of her minuets on the piano, and it sounds like a classical minuet, maybe something that could have been written by someone like Boccherini.


Marie Antoinette also composed a little.

I want to add to this. This doesn't mean that there weren't great female composers, painters, scientists, etc.

For example, do you know who discovered the structure of DNA? Not Watson and Crick. It was a woman named Franklin. She took a particularly good photograph, and noticed the patterns in it. When she told her friends Watson and Crick about it, they later stole the photograph, examined it, and then published "their" theory on the structure of DNA.

So, to follow on this example, there may have been some very very great female composers whose work simply was not recognized, or maybe was even used without credit by male contemporaries.

Yes, but i think franklin only discovered the basic principles (before watson and crick) while watson and crick were the ones who made the complete DNA model

Bassio,

I think the controversy there is that Franklin did not get the recognition she deserved for providing a critical piece of information that led to the complete DNA model.

--c5

Men still largely dominate the musical field, and not because women are being repressed. Anyone who thinks that men and women think exactly alike and have all the same talents and shortcomings simply hasn't been paying attention.

Don
Kansas City

eromlignod,

"simply hasn't been paying attention"...to what, pray tell? :p

Getting back to female composers:
Hmmm, how about Fanny Mendelssohn, sister of Felix?
She composed quite a few pieces, no?

--c5

I don't believe there's any great mystery about where the women were. Study a bit of the history of women in society and you'll see that women didn't "do" this sort of thing because the opportunity wasn't there for them to do it.

Many composers got their musical performing and/or composing training in ways - becoming church organists, performing in court ensembles/orchestras, or attending conservatories and universities - that weren't open to women in the 18th and 19th centuries.

Regards,

Well, to the repertoire for one thing. It is a simple matter to go to your local music store and compare the number of male works to female works. I don't know what the exact ratio is, but it's obviously overwhelmingly male.

The original poster had a legitimate question about an obvious fact.

I can name Caucasians that have won the 100 m dash, too, but that doesn't negate the fact that it is dominated by blacks. They are simply superior. I don't have any problem admitting that.

Don
Kansas City

Well, I don't know. That "Gaelic" Symphony by Amy Beach is pretty darn good.

Anyone who thinks that women can't compose good music simply haven't been paying attention.

Anyone who read my post and still thinks that I said that "women can't compose good music" wasn't paying attention. No one in the entire thread ever said that women can't or don't write great music. This is demonstrable nonsense.

I said that women think differently than men, and I hold this truth to be self-evident.

Don
Kansas City

[Editted] Douse the flames! Douse the flames!

While I do agree there are physiological differences between genders including (possibly) the structuring of the brain, I think it's too simplistic a view to say that there are more famous male composers in history than women because of that very reason. There are just too many factors-- socioeconomic and cultural-- that discouraged females from 1) attempting to compose in the first place, and 2) gaining prominence even if she did compose excellent music.
Whether the same factors are still at work today is another topic. Social values, cultural norms are always changing.
I hope this is a fair-enough statement.

--c5

Yes, I agree with everything you said here. It can readily be proved by looking at the history of other, non-musical fields that once women were allowed to participate in them, they thrived and sometimes even dominated over men. There are certainly many more successful women composers now than there were 100 years ago.

But despite this fact, there still is a noticeable dominance of males in the music field, though not as pronounced as in the past. It is hard for me to believe that there could still be much pattern discrimination against women in the music industry, especially when you consider their money-making potential to those who would publish/record them.

Don
Kansas City

I am going to introduce another theory, for whatever it's worth. The right brain/left brain concept. Supposedly, the left brain is the logical, organized, focused, see the big-picture section. Whereas the right is the creative, sensitive, hands-on, thinks out of the box, works from the inside out section. This is a very generalized explanation. It certainly does take a left-brained person to compose music, considering the complexity of it. But there also has to be a very strong right brain involved for obvious reasons. Just how does this concept explain how composers were able to compose? How were they able to switch back and forth? And one side has to be dominant. I'm confused. Oh, generally speaking, women are usually more right brained and men left. THIS IS JUST A GENERALIZATION. Please don't attack me. I'm a woman...have pity.

But if you were a man, it would be all right to attack you? This sounds like a plea for double standards.

Bruce, you numbskull. Of course it's alright to insult men, you stupid idiot, but it's bad for our health to scorn women.

Does anybody notice t.v. ads lately? whats with all the ads on t.v. portaying men as idiots. Next time you watch t.v. take note of the commercials. If you watch for an hour or two, I guarantee you'll see a commercial that degrades men.

John, we discussed that a lot in my 12th grade psychology class.

It's a trend that has been compounding since the 1950's or so.

John, it's not just lately that TV has portrayed men as idiots. It's been happening for a long time. And how I hate when the kids are such smart alecs and make their parents look like morons. One of the many reason why I don't watch TV anymore.

Bruce: I asked not to be attacked because I was a woman, and I wanted any other females reading the post to know that because my statement about most females being right-brained could be construed by some as an insult. Thus, was I insulting myself? Boy, I'm long-winded.

Jerome: So young and yet so wise. "heck hath no fury as a woman scorned." Keep healthy.

Men have a wider distribution of intelligence. We make 90% of the geniuses but also 90% of the prison population.