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#489809 - 11/24/08 08:52 PM Comparing a piano with guitar
hotWings Offline
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Registered: 02/13/08
Posts: 140
Loc: MI
Is it harder to learn how to fast fingerpick on guitar using all five fingers then it is to have dexterity at the piano?

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#489810 - 11/24/08 09:04 PM Re: Comparing a piano with guitar
Loki Offline
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Registered: 07/09/05
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Loc: Texas
Seems like a question that'd depend on who you ask.
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#489811 - 11/25/08 12:20 AM Re: Comparing a piano with guitar
agent3x Offline
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Registered: 05/24/08
Posts: 147
Loc: United States
I'd say yes.

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#489812 - 11/25/08 01:31 AM Re: Comparing a piano with guitar
keyboardklutz Offline
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It's more dangerous on the guitar, you can't allow your hand its natural shape. Check out dystonia and guitar players.
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#489813 - 11/25/08 05:43 AM Re: Comparing a piano with guitar
izaldu Offline
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Not many fingerpick with all 5 fingers. i ve been playing flamenco guitar for a while , which i think is (not at the level i used ti play though) the most technically demanding guitar style. RH position is abolutely crucial. Not necessarily harmful, although i understand KKlutz's comment. most people only use 4 fingers, and occassionally the fifth for tapping the guitar body maybe ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oyv0sE-87do

after watching this , i really wonder if thee 's a need for a fifth picking finger

what's harder? ... no idea

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#489814 - 11/25/08 05:49 AM Re: Comparing a piano with guitar
keystring Online   content
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There are many different styles of guitar playing. Here is a classical guitarist with a relaxed hand (both) and comfortable technique.

Nelson Amos

Injuries come when form and technique are not correct. Guitar playing is different from piano playing because your two hands work together to produce one sound. On piano, each hand produces both the note and the dynamics. I've played piano music on guitar and vice versa, but it's a different experience.

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#489815 - 11/25/08 06:33 AM Re: Comparing a piano with guitar
keyboardklutz Offline
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 Quote:
Originally posted by keystring:
There are many different styles of guitar playing. Here is a classical guitarist with a relaxed hand (both) and comfortable technique.

Nelson Amos [/b]
That is not a relaxed hand. A relaxed hand is what you see hanging from your arm when you look down.
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#489816 - 11/25/08 02:14 PM Re: Comparing a piano with guitar
hotWings Offline
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Registered: 02/13/08
Posts: 140
Loc: MI
This is what makes me concerned...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MQ9PRzIyzFA


How in the hell can he fingerpick that fast?

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#489817 - 11/25/08 02:38 PM Re: Comparing a piano with guitar
Morodiene Online   content
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 Quote:
Originally posted by hotWings:
This is what makes me concerned...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MQ9PRzIyzFA


How in the hell can he fingerpick that fast? [/b]
He's not using finger 5 at all, mostly 1 2 & 3 really, and possibly 4 every once in a while. How can he play that fast? My guess is lots of practice! \:D
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#489818 - 11/25/08 03:01 PM Re: Comparing a piano with guitar
keystring Online   content
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It is a good hand, kbk. I'm not playing semantics.

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#489819 - 11/25/08 04:00 PM Re: Comparing a piano with guitar
keyboardklutz Offline
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Its not semantics, it's physiology.
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#489820 - 11/25/08 04:11 PM Re: Comparing a piano with guitar
keystring Online   content
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Intent of communication. Semantics.

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#489821 - 11/25/08 04:15 PM Re: Comparing a piano with guitar
keyboardklutz Offline
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Hand. Physiology.
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#489822 - 11/25/08 04:25 PM Re: Comparing a piano with guitar
kentm Offline
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Registered: 08/20/08
Posts: 126
Loc: Camp Verde, AZ.
Hand over the semantics, communicate the physiology, and get to practicing...

The speed of these guitarists seem no more amazing to me than the speed at which Gould could play some of Bach's pieces..it's all relative.

Semantics..physiology.....relativity
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#489823 - 11/25/08 04:31 PM Re: Comparing a piano with guitar
keyboardklutz Offline
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 Quote:
Originally posted by kentm:
Semantics..physiology.....relativity [/b]
What you seem to fail to understand is that you cannot pick the guitar with a natural hand shape - whatever the semiotics of it may be.
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#489824 - 11/25/08 04:33 PM Re: Comparing a piano with guitar
keystring Online   content
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The guitarist in the clip I selected plays the guitar in a relaxed manner because he understands how to play and use his body. The point that one needs to learn to do that, and that an instructor can guide the way, is the main thing. I did not write a single sentence - I wrote a paragraph and the meaning is within the body of the text. The ease of playing and apparent lack of effort is visible in this clip. If one is to take up any instrument, this is one thing to strive for and to find the means to do so - probably through an instructor. That was the main idea.

I am not willing to discuss the nature of communication in this thread.

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#489825 - 11/25/08 04:35 PM Re: Comparing a piano with guitar
keystring Online   content
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 Quote:
What you seem to fail to understand is that you cannot pick the guitar with a natural hand shape - whatever the semiotics of it may be.
Hence it helps to read the entire message and see how ideas connect, instead of taking one small part out of context. Mine continued:
 Quote:
Injuries come when form and technique are not correct.

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#489826 - 11/25/08 04:39 PM Re: Comparing a piano with guitar
keyboardklutz Offline
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Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
 Quote:
Originally posted by keystring:
There are many different styles of guitar playing. Here is a classical guitarist with a relaxed hand (both) and comfortable technique.
Nelson Amos [/b]
That hand was not relaxed. You can not be serious!
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#489827 - 11/25/08 04:41 PM Re: Comparing a piano with guitar
izaldu Offline
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Registered: 09/18/08
Posts: 1248
Loc:
 Quote:
Originally posted by Morodiene:
 Quote:
Originally posted by hotWings:
This is what makes me concerned...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MQ9PRzIyzFA


How in the hell can he fingerpick that fast? [/b]
He's not using finger 5 at all, mostly 1 2 & 3 really, and possibly 4 every once in a while. How can he play that fast? My guess is lots of practice! \:D [/b]
It sounds like a metal virtuoso fingerpicking.I guess he's using a very low action (strings very close to the fretboard. Short nails and and yes, lots of practice. For the faster parts he uses 1 and 2 (index and middle)..

Check these two guys
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Gy5ryeDYyo

Between 3:20 and 3:40 and then the guy on the right at 3:50 and on ... this is index and middle picados,higher action and stronger picking, longer nails.

Finally, there's people who can play a bit of both, picking technique this time: metal guitarist who plays chopin in his early albums (he was 19 then)...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-5y42q2p6iY&feature=related

and on piano
chopin ├ętude 10/4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aT_dxU9-6zA

chopin prelude 16 op 28
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=200IBCBI-BY

and then there's people who play guitar because they don't have room for a piano!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3E0hK8HwhLI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c46fr2EZOhQ&feature=related

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#489828 - 11/25/08 08:37 PM Re: Comparing a piano with guitar
hotWings Offline
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Registered: 02/13/08
Posts: 140
Loc: MI
Are virtuosos on one instrument usually virtuosos on another instrument?

This means, if you have a virtuoso technique on piano or violin, then can that person easily learn to have the same virtuoso technique on a guitar, saxophone, flute, oboe, etc... if he learned how to play those instruments?

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#489829 - 11/25/08 09:11 PM Re: Comparing a piano with guitar
jscomposer Offline
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Registered: 10/27/08
Posts: 537
Loc: The Boogie Down
Wind instruments are a different ball game.

Why are you asking? Are you trying to decide which instrument to learn next? Are you frustrated with your progress on a certain instrument? Are you picking up instruments with ease and wondering how many others have done the same?
_________________________
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#489830 - 11/26/08 02:51 AM Re: Comparing a piano with guitar
keyboardklutz Offline
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Registered: 05/21/07
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Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
 Quote:
Originally posted by hotWings:
Are virtuosos on one instrument usually virtuosos on another instrument?
[/b]
That all are playing music gives them a lot in common. If you have a sound understanding of finger mechanics that will also go a long way. The problem with wind is the tone. As far as I know no one has rationalized that.
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#489831 - 11/26/08 04:04 AM Re: Comparing a piano with guitar
izaldu Offline
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Registered: 09/18/08
Posts: 1248
Loc:
So your hand is only relaxed when hanging from your arm? That rasoning would lead us to say no pianist can play with a relaxed hand, as it requires the hand to be in a horizontal position, which is not "natural"

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#489832 - 11/26/08 04:05 AM Re: Comparing a piano with guitar
keyboardklutz Offline
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Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
The hand rests on the keyboard (with relaxed flexors and extensors).
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#489833 - 11/26/08 06:31 AM Re: Comparing a piano with guitar
izaldu Offline
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Registered: 09/18/08
Posts: 1248
Loc:
On guitar , arm rests on the body of the instrument if the position is correct.
All i 'm saying is that there is no way you cam attain a level of performance like the guitarists above if you re putting stress on your hands from wrong positions. In fact, classical and flamenco rh positions differ radically but both can be done with zero stress or injury risk ...

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#489834 - 11/26/08 07:10 AM Re: Comparing a piano with guitar
keyboardklutz Offline
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All I'm saying is to get to the strings you have to have your flexors tensed (bend your fingers) which is not the natural position for them and therefore dangerous if not carefully monitored. Check out how many guitarists have focal dystonia exactly in those fingers.
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#489835 - 11/26/08 07:38 AM Re: Comparing a piano with guitar
keystring Online   content
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Thank you for elucidating, kbk. We're on the same page after all. You're right, his hands are not "relaxed" in the neutral and loose manner of hands hanging by the sides. What I meant is that there is a comfortable way of playing because he has learned how and I would think that he does not injure himself. There are numerous things that I see which he does, which he must have been taught and/or developed which allow for that ease of motion that I see.

The most important point is still that we have to learn to have a kind of setup that we don't put unnatural strain on our body, so that it can move in the best way possible for how we are constructed. Then we also have to learn technique which is effective or efficient which also prevents excess tension, and a host of other things which you'll know a lot more about than I can. In other words: a good instructor to lead the way, and not just aiming to play this or that piece impressively.

The emphasis is on good instruction, learning properly, in order to prevent such things as focal dystonia. In addition, you end up playing better. If I'm not mistaken, you believe similar things.

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#489836 - 11/26/08 10:45 AM Re: Comparing a piano with guitar
keyboardklutz Offline
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So, when 'Comparing a piano with guitar' - the piano you can have the natural shaped relaxed hand the guitar you can't.
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#489837 - 11/26/08 03:54 PM Re: Comparing a piano with guitar
Horowitzian Offline
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Registered: 09/18/08
Posts: 8453
 Quote:
Originally posted by keyboardklutz:
All I'm saying is to get to the strings you have to have your flexors tensed (bend your fingers) which is not the natural position for them and therefore dangerous if not carefully monitored. Check out how many guitarists have focal dystonia exactly in those fingers. [/b]
If you're playing guitar with your flexors tensed, not only will you get injured eventually, you won't be able to play anything worth a darn. Certainly never to the level of those guys posted above. FWIW, the finger's natural position is curved, not straight.

There's a good reason why you place you thumb on the back of the guitar neck, leaving a space between your hand and the guitar neck. That space allows you fingers to work without being tensed up.

It's just like piano. Anyone who gets injured playing guitar is probably using poor technique.
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#489838 - 11/26/08 04:04 PM Re: Comparing a piano with guitar
keyboardklutz Offline
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Registered: 05/21/07
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Watch a guitarist (or better yet play a guitar) and then tell me his fingers are not bent as he plays.
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