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#489839 - 11/26/08 04:06 PM Re: Comparing a piano with guitar
Horowitzian Offline
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Registered: 09/18/08
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Of course they are bent. They are just not tense. And FYI, I study classical guitar.
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#489840 - 11/26/08 04:20 PM Re: Comparing a piano with guitar
keyboardklutz Offline
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How do you bend a joint without tensing a muscle and having a stressed tendon? I know what you're gonna say next.
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#489841 - 11/26/08 04:38 PM Re: Comparing a piano with guitar
Horowitzian Offline
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Hmmm, what shall I say next to satisfy KK's expert analysis from across the pond of what exactly I am going to say next? :rolleyes:

I'm sitting here right now typing this with my fingers bent over the keys. Not one shred of unwanted tension. \:\)

You only stress a tendon if you clench a joint.

OK, Mr. Psychic, tell me what I was going to say next.
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#489842 - 11/26/08 05:12 PM Re: Comparing a piano with guitar
keyboardklutz Offline
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You were going to say that there is tension and then there is unwanted tension (which is your real definition of tension). Which you did.
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#489843 - 11/26/08 05:19 PM Re: Comparing a piano with guitar
Horowitzian Offline
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Posts: 8453
What gives me the idea that you just lifted that from my post?


\:D \:D \:D


I hate terminology.
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#489844 - 11/26/08 05:25 PM Re: Comparing a piano with guitar
keyboardklutz Offline
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A muscle not in a relaxed state (ignoring tonus for the moment) is tense. Anytime a tendon is attached to a tense muscle it is in stress. This is just physics. On a piano you can have, as I keep on saying, zero tension/stress before initiating key depression. On a guitar you can't.
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#489845 - 11/26/08 05:39 PM Re: Comparing a piano with guitar
Horowitzian Offline
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 Quote:
Originally posted by keyboardklutz:
A muscle not in a relaxed state (ignoring tonus for the moment) is tense. Anytime a tendon is attached to a tense muscle it is in stress. This is just physics. On a piano you can have, as I keep on saying, zero tension/stress before initiating key depression. On a guitar you can't. [/b]
By your definition of muscle tension (which I don't disagree with) you have tension when you play a piano key 'cause you gotta hold your arm in position to play the key!

I can tell you in no uncertain terms that if you are playing your guitar with the tension you are talking about, you are doing it wrong. You make it out to sound like you grip the neck as hard as you can. If you really have a notion like that, may I suggest guitar lessons?
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#489846 - 11/26/08 05:47 PM Re: Comparing a piano with guitar
keyboardklutz Offline
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I'm talking pickin' hand here! In placing your hand on the keys you have a small amount of tension in the biceps which hold the forearm horizontal. They can take it. The long tendons of the flexors make tension there undesirable until required. Guitarists suffer from dystonia in their right hand.
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#489847 - 11/26/08 05:55 PM Re: Comparing a piano with guitar
Horowitzian Offline
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Registered: 09/18/08
Posts: 8453
 Quote:
Originally posted by keyboardklutz:
I'm talking pickin' hand here! In placing your hand on the keys you have a small amount of tension in the biceps which hold the forearm horizontal. They can take it. The long tendons of the flexors make tension there undesirable until required. Guitarists suffer from dystonia in their right hand.
[/b]
That's great, but your picking hand actually holds (for classical guitar) the most natural shape of either hand.

Also, I have never heard of any decent guitarist suffering from dystonia. Do you care to enlighten me?
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#489848 - 11/26/08 05:59 PM Re: Comparing a piano with guitar
keyboardklutz Offline
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#489849 - 11/26/08 06:01 PM Re: Comparing a piano with guitar
keyboardklutz Offline
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New Age acoustic guitarist Billy McLaughlin announced via his website that he is suffering from focal dystonia, which severely limits his ability to play. Another musician to be afflicted by this condition is shred guitarist Terry Syrek, who recorded his entire album "AUM" with just two fully functioning fingers of his fret hand. A well known bass guitarist, Andy Billups, who plays with British rock act The Hamsters, has also made a partial recovery from this disorder and continued to play by using modified guitar plectrums to make up for the limited function of his right hand. Classical guitarist David Leisner has recovered the full use of his hand and has returned successfully to the concert stage and recording studio in the early 1990s after a decade of disability. Brazilian singer-guitarist Badi Assad was diagnosed with focal dystonia in 1999 (after having been misdiagnosed with carpal tunnel syndrome). She eventually recovered and was able to resume her career.[1]
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#489850 - 11/26/08 06:07 PM Re: Comparing a piano with guitar
Horowitzian Offline
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Registered: 09/18/08
Posts: 8453
 Quote:
Originally posted by keyboardklutz:
http://www.dystonia-bb.org/forums/mwd/index.html [/b]
Thanks, that's interesting.

I wonder if overpracticing might be what contributes to dystonia? Really good players practice a LOT. Besides I've played guitar and piano for a while, with good technique, and without overpracticing. Never had a single problem.

It may be important to look at time spent playing without rest rather than to look at the "naturalness" of guitar hand positions. Assuming good technique, playing guitar should feel quite natural. \:\)

[edit] You added two more links and more info, thanks!
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#489851 - 11/26/08 06:17 PM Re: Comparing a piano with guitar
keyboardklutz Offline
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 Quote:
Originally posted by Horowitzian:
It's just like piano. Anyone who gets injured playing guitar is probably using poor technique. [/b]
That's a bit smug, though mostly true. The latest consensus is that there is a genetic component.

If you want to call fingers curved beyond their 'hanging from your wrist' state relaxed, then go ahead. I see it as tension, no matter how it feels to you (it won't feel tense, the body doesn't allow that feeling to surface), and therefore one of the guitar's differences.
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#489852 - 11/26/08 06:36 PM Re: Comparing a piano with guitar
Horowitzian Offline
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Registered: 09/18/08
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Smug?


Well, it is obviously differing viewpoints at work here.

Squeeze your right forearm with your fingers curved as they might be for playing guitar. Muscles feel pretty loose don't they? Now move your fingers while in that curved state, while still squeezing the forearm. Now you feel tension as the flexors and extensors do their work, right? Tension that is completely necessary.

Now try clenching a fist. While clenched, you've got hard tension in that forearm. But you can completely relax your forearm without opening your hand.

Tension does not result from where you hold your hand, but from how you go about holding it. [/b]
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#489853 - 11/26/08 07:12 PM Re: Comparing a piano with guitar
jscomposer Offline
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Registered: 10/27/08
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Loc: The Boogie Down
The two of you better stop brushing your teeth, tying your shoes, opening doors, and eating with utensils. Don't wanna stress those tendons now!

Anyway, this guy's finger speed-picking looks more natural/relaxed, more like piano playing:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-CjLfu9zCk (the one on the right)
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#489854 - 11/26/08 07:33 PM Re: Comparing a piano with guitar
Horowitzian Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/18/08
Posts: 8453
 Quote:
Originally posted by jscomposer:
The two of you better stop brushing your teeth, tying your shoes, opening doors, and eating with utensils. Don't wanna stress those tendons now!

Anyway, this guy's finger speed-picking looks more natural/relaxed, more like piano playing:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-CjLfu9zCk (the one on the right) [/b]
:D \:D

Great video!
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#489855 - 11/26/08 07:49 PM Re: Comparing a piano with guitar
Gary D. Online   content
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Registered: 08/30/08
Posts: 4750
Loc: South Florida
No discussion yet about playing guitar or piano in a weightless environment? \:\)
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#489856 - 11/27/08 01:12 AM Re: Comparing a piano with guitar
keyboardklutz Offline
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Registered: 05/21/07
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Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
 Quote:
Originally posted by Horowitzian:
Now try clenching a fist. While clenched, you've got hard tension in that forearm. But you can completely relax your forearm without opening your hand. [/b]
Now you've gone and done it! What do you think, for Christ sake (Kreisler twitches), keeps your hand from opening? The fairies?
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#489857 - 11/27/08 01:23 AM Re: Comparing a piano with guitar
Loki Offline
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Registered: 07/09/05
Posts: 1035
Loc: Texas
Finger picking can be pretty relaxed, for example, this guy.
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#489858 - 11/27/08 01:32 AM Re: Comparing a piano with guitar
keyboardklutz Offline
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Not as relaxed as the initial piano hand position can be.
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#489859 - 11/27/08 01:35 AM Re: Comparing a piano with guitar
Horowitzian Offline
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Registered: 09/18/08
Posts: 8453
 Quote:
Originally posted by keyboardklutz:
 Quote:
Originally posted by Horowitzian:
Now try clenching a fist. While clenched, you've got hard tension in that forearm. But you can completely relax your forearm without opening your hand. [/b]
Now you've gone and done it! What do you think, for Christ sake (Kreisler twitches), keeps your hand from opening? The fairies? [/b]
Why not give the test a try? Anyone can feel a tense muscle. Anyone can feel a relaxed muscle. Do what I said, clench a fist and then relax it without opening your hand. Feel the forearm. Those muscles are relaxed. And I can even shake my fingers freely by shaking my arm while they are curved like that. No if's, and's, or but's about it. \:\)
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#489860 - 11/27/08 01:42 AM Re: Comparing a piano with guitar
keyboardklutz Offline
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Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
 Quote:
Originally posted by Horowitzian:
Anyone can feel a tense muscle. Anyone can feel a relaxed muscle. Do what I said, clench a fist and then relax it without opening your hand. Feel the forearm. Those muscles are relaxed. No if's, and's, or but's. \:\) [/b]
That's kinda the point. The body subsumes habitual tension so that you can't feel it (otherwise you'd feel tense every time you used a muscle).
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#489861 - 11/27/08 01:53 AM Re: Comparing a piano with guitar
Horowitzian Offline
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Registered: 09/18/08
Posts: 8453
What? I can't feel tension? So the tension I feel when I clench a fist, play octaves fast , or lift a heavy box is my imagination running amok?

Do you have any actual medical experience to back up what you are saying? I gotta have concrete proof from valid sources other than your word before I'll reconsider my position. \:\)
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#489862 - 11/27/08 01:59 AM Re: Comparing a piano with guitar
keyboardklutz Offline
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Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
 Quote:
Originally posted by Horowitzian:
What? I can't feel tension? So the tension I feel when I clench a fist, play octaves fast , or lift a heavy box is my imagination running amok? [/b]
That is not habitual tension. You don't have to be an MD to work out that the body doesn't tell you about the tensions going on in your body as you go about your habitual day-to-day. Man is born free, but everywhere he is in chains. I feel tension when my hand is not 'open', you don't. It took me years and a lot of help to achieve.

Are you a guitar conservatoire graduate cause I gotta have concrete proof from valid sources...
 Quote:
I wander thro' each charter'd street,
Near where the charter'd Thames does flow,
And mark in every face I meet
Marks of weakness, marks of woe.
As Aristotle said when asked about slavery - "Just look at 'em!"
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#489863 - 11/27/08 02:22 PM Re: Comparing a piano with guitar
Horowitzian Offline
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Registered: 09/18/08
Posts: 8453
 Quote:
Originally posted by keyboardklutz:
 Quote:
Originally posted by Horowitzian:
What? I can't feel tension? So the tension I feel when I clench a fist, play octaves fast , or lift a heavy box is my imagination running amok? [/b]
That is not habitual tension. You don't have to be an MD to work out that the body doesn't tell you about the tensions going on in your body as you go about your habitual day-to-day. Man is born free, but everywhere he is in chains. I feel tension when my hand is not 'open', you don't. It took me years and a lot of help to achieve.

Are you a guitar conservatoire graduate cause I gotta have concrete proof from valid sources...
 Quote:
I wander thro' each charter'd street,
Near where the charter'd Thames does flow,
And mark in every face I meet
Marks of weakness, marks of woe.
As Aristotle said when asked about slavery - "Just look at 'em!" [/b]
Are you a "conservatoire" grad? :rolleyes:

I'm not, and don't claim to be. Being a "conservatoire" grad does not make anyone an instant expert in everything anyway.

This business about not being able to feel tension sounds like a load of BS to me. How could anyone ever know if they are playing correctly without injurious tension if they cannot feel it? Naturally, you are not normally aware of involuntary muscle tension (e.g. heartbeat), but you can sure feel tension in voluntary muscle action.

I want concrete PROOF of what you are saying, not more pontificating. If you can't provide that, just go away; because I won't let you rest until you do. Give me real proof that I'm wrong and I'll change my view. \:\)
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#489864 - 11/27/08 04:17 PM Re: Comparing a piano with guitar
keyboardklutz Offline
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 Quote:
Originally posted by Horowitzian:
How could anyone ever know if they are playing correctly without injurious tension if they cannot feel it? [/b]
You have someone who knows tell you week after week, month after month, year after year.
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#489865 - 11/27/08 05:53 PM Re: Comparing a piano with guitar
Horowitzian Offline
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Registered: 09/18/08
Posts: 8453
 Quote:
Originally posted by keyboardklutz:
 Quote:
Originally posted by Horowitzian:
How could anyone ever know if they are playing correctly without injurious tension if they cannot feel it? [/b]
You have someone who knows tell you week after week, month after month, year after year. [/b]
Well, I can feel when I have too much tension. I could even feel it before I had much experience playing.

Seems like you've got problems if you have unwanted tension in your playing year after year...

It's obvious from all the hot air you blow that you either can't or won't back up your hypothesis that one cannot feel tension in the body. Until you do as much, I'll be taking your opinion with say, a 15-lb. bag of salt. :p

Cheers!
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#489866 - 11/27/08 05:56 PM Re: Comparing a piano with guitar
keyboardklutz Offline
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Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
 Quote:
Originally posted by Horowitzian:
Seems like you've got problems if you have unwanted tension in your playing year after year... [/b]
That's just how long it takes.
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#489867 - 11/27/08 06:00 PM Re: Comparing a piano with guitar
Horowitzian Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/18/08
Posts: 8453
 Quote:
Originally posted by keyboardklutz:
 Quote:
Originally posted by Horowitzian:
Seems like you've got problems if you have unwanted tension in your playing year after year... [/b]
That's just how long it takes. [/b]
_________________________
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#489868 - 11/27/08 06:06 PM Re: Comparing a piano with guitar
keystring Online   content
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Hotwings? You in there somewhere? Snowed under? Did your question ever get answered? ;\) :rolleyes:

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