Is it harder to learn how to fast fingerpick on guitar using all five fingers then it is to have dexterity at the piano?

Seems like a question that'd depend on who you ask.

I'd say yes.

It's more dangerous on the guitar, you can't allow your hand its natural shape. Check out dystonia and guitar players.

Not many fingerpick with all 5 fingers. i ve been playing flamenco guitar for a while , which i think is (not at the level i used ti play though) the most technically demanding guitar style. RH position is abolutely crucial. Not necessarily harmful, although i understand KKlutz's comment. most people only use 4 fingers, and occassionally the fifth for tapping the guitar body maybe ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oyv0sE-87do

after watching this , i really wonder if thee 's a need for a fifth picking finger

what's harder? ... no idea

There are many different styles of guitar playing. Here is a classical guitarist with a relaxed hand (both) and comfortable technique.

Nelson Amos

Injuries come when form and technique are not correct. Guitar playing is different from piano playing because your two hands work together to produce one sound. On piano, each hand produces both the note and the dynamics. I've played piano music on guitar and vice versa, but it's a different experience.

That is not a relaxed hand. A relaxed hand is what you see hanging from your arm when you look down.

This is what makes me concerned...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MQ9PRzIyzFA


How in the hell can he fingerpick that fast?

He's not using finger 5 at all, mostly 1 2 & 3 really, and possibly 4 every once in a while. How can he play that fast? My guess is lots of practice!

It is a good hand, kbk. I'm not playing semantics.

Its not semantics, it's physiology.

Intent of communication. Semantics.

Hand. Physiology.

Hand over the semantics, communicate the physiology, and get to practicing...

The speed of these guitarists seem no more amazing to me than the speed at which Gould could play some of Bach's pieces..it's all relative.

Semantics..physiology.....relativity

What you seem to fail to understand is that you cannot pick the guitar with a natural hand shape - whatever the semiotics of it may be.

The guitarist in the clip I selected plays the guitar in a relaxed manner because he understands how to play and use his body. The point that one needs to learn to do that, and that an instructor can guide the way, is the main thing. I did not write a single sentence - I wrote a paragraph and the meaning is within the body of the text. The ease of playing and apparent lack of effort is visible in this clip. If one is to take up any instrument, this is one thing to strive for and to find the means to do so - probably through an instructor. That was the main idea.

I am not willing to discuss the nature of communication in this thread.

Hence it helps to read the entire message and see how ideas connect, instead of taking one small part out of context. Mine continued:

That hand was not relaxed. You can not be serious!

It sounds like a metal virtuoso fingerpicking.I guess he's using a very low action (strings very close to the fretboard. Short nails and and yes, lots of practice. For the faster parts he uses 1 and 2 (index and middle)..

Check these two guys
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Gy5ryeDYyo

Between 3:20 and 3:40 and then the guy on the right at 3:50 and on ... this is index and middle picados,higher action and stronger picking, longer nails.

Finally, there's people who can play a bit of both, picking technique this time: metal guitarist who plays chopin in his early albums (he was 19 then)...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-5y42q2p6iY&feature=related

and on piano
chopin étude 10/4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aT_dxU9-6zA

chopin prelude 16 op 28
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=200IBCBI-BY

and then there's people who play guitar because they don't have room for a piano!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3E0hK8HwhLI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c46fr2EZOhQ&feature=related

Are virtuosos on one instrument usually virtuosos on another instrument?

This means, if you have a virtuoso technique on piano or violin, then can that person easily learn to have the same virtuoso technique on a guitar, saxophone, flute, oboe, etc... if he learned how to play those instruments?

Wind instruments are a different ball game.

Why are you asking? Are you trying to decide which instrument to learn next? Are you frustrated with your progress on a certain instrument? Are you picking up instruments with ease and wondering how many others have done the same?

That all are playing music gives them a lot in common. If you have a sound understanding of finger mechanics that will also go a long way. The problem with wind is the tone. As far as I know no one has rationalized that.

So your hand is only relaxed when hanging from your arm? That rasoning would lead us to say no pianist can play with a relaxed hand, as it requires the hand to be in a horizontal position, which is not "natural"

The hand rests on the keyboard (with relaxed flexors and extensors).

On guitar , arm rests on the body of the instrument if the position is correct.
All i 'm saying is that there is no way you cam attain a level of performance like the guitarists above if you re putting stress on your hands from wrong positions. In fact, classical and flamenco rh positions differ radically but both can be done with zero stress or injury risk ...

All I'm saying is to get to the strings you have to have your flexors tensed (bend your fingers) which is not the natural position for them and therefore dangerous if not carefully monitored. Check out how many guitarists have focal dystonia exactly in those fingers.

Thank you for elucidating, kbk. We're on the same page after all. You're right, his hands are not "relaxed" in the neutral and loose manner of hands hanging by the sides. What I meant is that there is a comfortable way of playing because he has learned how and I would think that he does not injure himself. There are numerous things that I see which he does, which he must have been taught and/or developed which allow for that ease of motion that I see.

The most important point is still that we have to learn to have a kind of setup that we don't put unnatural strain on our body, so that it can move in the best way possible for how we are constructed. Then we also have to learn technique which is effective or efficient which also prevents excess tension, and a host of other things which you'll know a lot more about than I can. In other words: a good instructor to lead the way, and not just aiming to play this or that piece impressively.

The emphasis is on good instruction, learning properly, in order to prevent such things as focal dystonia. In addition, you end up playing better. If I'm not mistaken, you believe similar things.

So, when 'Comparing a piano with guitar' - the piano you can have the natural shaped relaxed hand the guitar you can't.

If you're playing guitar with your flexors tensed, not only will you get injured eventually, you won't be able to play anything worth a darn. Certainly never to the level of those guys posted above. FWIW, the finger's natural position is curved, not straight.

There's a good reason why you place you thumb on the back of the guitar neck, leaving a space between your hand and the guitar neck. That space allows you fingers to work without being tensed up.

It's just like piano. Anyone who gets injured playing guitar is probably using poor technique.

Watch a guitarist (or better yet play a guitar) and then tell me his fingers are not bent as he plays.

Of course they are bent. They are just not tense. And FYI, I study classical guitar.

How do you bend a joint without tensing a muscle and having a stressed tendon? I know what you're gonna say next.

Hmmm, what shall I say next to satisfy KK's expert analysis from across the pond of what exactly I am going to say next? :rolleyes:

I'm sitting here right now typing this with my fingers bent over the keys. Not one shred of unwanted tension.

You only stress a tendon if you clench a joint.

OK, Mr. Psychic, tell me what I was going to say next.

You were going to say that there is tension and then there is unwanted tension (which is your real definition of tension). Which you did.

What gives me the idea that you just lifted that from my post?





I hate terminology.

A muscle not in a relaxed state (ignoring tonus for the moment) is tense. Anytime a tendon is attached to a tense muscle it is in stress. This is just physics. On a piano you can have, as I keep on saying, zero tension/stress before initiating key depression. On a guitar you can't.

By your definition of muscle tension (which I don't disagree with) you have tension when you play a piano key 'cause you gotta hold your arm in position to play the key!

I can tell you in no uncertain terms that if you are playing your guitar with the tension you are talking about, you are doing it wrong. You make it out to sound like you grip the neck as hard as you can. If you really have a notion like that, may I suggest guitar lessons?

I'm talking pickin' hand here! In placing your hand on the keys you have a small amount of tension in the biceps which hold the forearm horizontal. They can take it. The long tendons of the flexors make tension there undesirable until required. Guitarists suffer from dystonia in their right hand.

That's great, but your picking hand actually holds (for classical guitar) the most natural shape of either hand.

Also, I have never heard of any decent guitarist suffering from dystonia. Do you care to enlighten me?

http://www.dystonia-bb.org/forums/mwd/index.html http://www.markashford.com/engine/SID/1000164/AID/101536.htm http://www.musicianshealth.co.uk/research.html

New Age acoustic guitarist Billy McLaughlin announced via his website that he is suffering from focal dystonia, which severely limits his ability to play. Another musician to be afflicted by this condition is shred guitarist Terry Syrek, who recorded his entire album "AUM" with just two fully functioning fingers of his fret hand. A well known bass guitarist, Andy Billups, who plays with British rock act The Hamsters, has also made a partial recovery from this disorder and continued to play by using modified guitar plectrums to make up for the limited function of his right hand. Classical guitarist David Leisner has recovered the full use of his hand and has returned successfully to the concert stage and recording studio in the early 1990s after a decade of disability. Brazilian singer-guitarist Badi Assad was diagnosed with focal dystonia in 1999 (after having been misdiagnosed with carpal tunnel syndrome). She eventually recovered and was able to resume her career.[1]

Thanks, that's interesting.

I wonder if overpracticing might be what contributes to dystonia? Really good players practice a LOT. Besides I've played guitar and piano for a while, with good technique, and without overpracticing. Never had a single problem.

It may be important to look at time spent playing without rest rather than to look at the "naturalness" of guitar hand positions. Assuming good technique, playing guitar should feel quite natural.

[edit] You added two more links and more info, thanks!

That's a bit smug, though mostly true. The latest consensus is that there is a genetic component.

If you want to call fingers curved beyond their 'hanging from your wrist' state relaxed, then go ahead. I see it as tension, no matter how it feels to you (it won't feel tense, the body doesn't allow that feeling to surface), and therefore one of the guitar's differences.

Smug?


Well, it is obviously differing viewpoints at work here.

Squeeze your right forearm with your fingers curved as they might be for playing guitar. Muscles feel pretty loose don't they? Now move your fingers while in that curved state, while still squeezing the forearm. Now you feel tension as the flexors and extensors do their work, right? Tension that is completely necessary.

Now try clenching a fist. While clenched, you've got hard tension in that forearm. But you can completely relax your forearm without opening your hand.

Tension does not result from where you hold your hand, but from how you go about holding it. [/b]

The two of you better stop brushing your teeth, tying your shoes, opening doors, and eating with utensils. Don't wanna stress those tendons now!

Anyway, this guy's finger speed-picking looks more natural/relaxed, more like piano playing:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-CjLfu9zCk (the one on the right)

:D

Great video!

No discussion yet about playing guitar or piano in a weightless environment?

Now you've gone and done it! What do you think, for Christ sake (Kreisler twitches), keeps your hand from opening? The fairies?

Finger picking can be pretty relaxed, for example, this guy.

Not as relaxed as the initial piano hand position can be.

Why not give the test a try? Anyone can feel a tense muscle. Anyone can feel a relaxed muscle. Do what I said, clench a fist and then relax it without opening your hand. Feel the forearm. Those muscles are relaxed. And I can even shake my fingers freely by shaking my arm while they are curved like that. No if's, and's, or but's about it.

That's kinda the point. The body subsumes habitual tension so that you can't feel it (otherwise you'd feel tense every time you used a muscle).

What? I can't feel tension? So the tension I feel when I clench a fist, play octaves fast , or lift a heavy box is my imagination running amok?

Do you have any actual medical experience to back up what you are saying? I gotta have concrete proof from valid sources other than your word before I'll reconsider my position.

That is not habitual tension. You don't have to be an MD to work out that the body doesn't tell you about the tensions going on in your body as you go about your habitual day-to-day. Man is born free, but everywhere he is in chains. I feel tension when my hand is not 'open', you don't. It took me years and a lot of help to achieve.

Are you a guitar conservatoire graduate cause I gotta have concrete proof from valid sources...
As Aristotle said when asked about slavery - "Just look at 'em!"

Are you a "conservatoire" grad? :rolleyes:

I'm not, and don't claim to be. Being a "conservatoire" grad does not make anyone an instant expert in everything anyway.

This business about not being able to feel tension sounds like a load of BS to me. How could anyone ever know if they are playing correctly without injurious tension if they cannot feel it? Naturally, you are not normally aware of involuntary muscle tension (e.g. heartbeat), but you can sure feel tension in voluntary muscle action.

I want concrete PROOF of what you are saying, not more pontificating. If you can't provide that, just go away; because I won't let you rest until you do. Give me real proof that I'm wrong and I'll change my view.

You have someone who knows tell you week after week, month after month, year after year.

Well, I can feel when I have too much tension. I could even feel it before I had much experience playing.

Seems like you've got problems if you have unwanted tension in your playing year after year...

It's obvious from all the hot air you blow that you either can't or won't back up your hypothesis that one cannot feel tension in the body. Until you do as much, I'll be taking your opinion with say, a 15-lb. bag of salt. :p

Cheers!

That's just how long it takes.

Hotwings? You in there somewhere? Snowed under? Did your question ever get answered? :rolleyes:

I know,





I'll answer. :p

For one thing, you don't normally use all 5 fingers for your RH on guitar. Some contemporary guitarists do, but certainly for classical you use 4. I'd say the piano is probably more difficult at first. But after you get experienced with both, the difficulty is probably about even. Of course, these two instruments are played in a radically different manner, so each presents it's own special difficulties.

Takes two to tango.

Wow, I'd have never guessed. :rolleyes:

I believe it's referred to as residual tension in the medical world:


Dr Dick-Reads

OK, thanks. I now see that someone in the medical community recognizes your viewpoint. But who is "Dr. Dick-Reads"? Google turned up nothing.

bump:
(OP is asking)
and originally

Who would you prefer Christian Barnard?

This thread was answered days ago with post #2: "Seems like a question that'd depend on who you ask."

The only other relevant followups--"Why are you asking? Are you trying to decide which instrument to learn next? Are you frustrated with your progress on a certain instrument? Are you picking up instruments with ease and wondering how many others have done the same?"--went unanswered. Maybe hotwings just shrugged his shoulders once he realized his thread was hijacked. Or maybe he realized that the answer "depends on who you ask" is as good as you can really get.

So let klutz and howitzer duke it out.

I hear ya.

Nope, just wondering who he is. Seems your view has some weight based on the text you posted, but it's good to check out the source.

His last post was in this thread so presumably he has gone to 'focus on more interesting non-loser activities' as Danny would say.

Horowitzian, there is a Dick Read who wrote "Childbirth Without Fear". Kbk, is that whom you mean? Dick Read - Childbirth etc.

I don't understand the reaction. I found the quoted text attributed to Dr. Dick Read in "Childbirth Without Fear" and I can see how it would be applicable. The whole movement in around the 1960's or later in childbirth involves being able to relax the body while undergoing something which involves both pain and extraordinary physical effort. Surely that is applicable to playing an instrument while avoiding physical strain.

If you don't believe me, here's the Google result:" .
url= http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&q=dick+read+%22residual+tension%22&meta=
You'll notice it's your quoted text at the bottom. I was trying to help. Sheesh!

I hear ya. (though I can't say I'm listening)

That does make sense considering the context of the image kbk posted...though being a guy, I'll just take your word for what it contains...

Ok, now I understand kbk's perturbment at my finding that source. I brought two children into this world and that colours my perspective when I read that the quoted author was involved in the childbirth efforts. I can well see the bearing of such work on issues of tension and relaxation when playing an instrument. If the man was involved in childbirth research, that is nothing to snigger at. Maybe you have to have given birth to appreciate that - sorry guys.

This has made me curious about Dr. Read, in fact. Obviously he must have carried his work into other areas. I read a little bit of the part of the book was on-line. He discusses the role that fear plays in creating tension in childbirth, as well as negative expectations. Don't we talk about the same in music, especially performing?

Keystring,

That is a very interesting correlation.

Thanks for providing a nice summary of Dr. Read's main point.

I give it to kbk that residual tension exists.

I think that childbirth (BTW, I was mostly being silly :p ) is an excellent analogy, especially where performing is concerned. Many performers who have trouble with tension in the concert/recital setting could probably benefit from this information. I know I have to focus on positive thoughts while performing, or I'll end up failing miserably.

Thanks!

There's my perturbation, since you seem to be having trouble spotting it. On one hand you claim/complain about a thread being hijacked and on the other join in with the 'hijack'. What kind of weird thinking assumes somebody would ridicule childbirth?

Dang, (Thanks Steven! ) I don't recall keystring complaining about hijacking (that was in my post, remember?); she was only trying to call attention to the OP's question.

All of a sudden she comes in with some corroboration for YOUR evidence, and you are perturbed!!!??? Go practice your piano if you can't add any more constructive information. :rolleyes:

Thanks to both of you for expanding my understanding.

I make a simple statement on the differing levels of tension in guitar vs piano and get accused by several posters of hijacking? Then one of those not only join in but start going on about childbirth?? Give me a break!

Dang, you're up early. Or are you still in Nova Scotia?

I freely admit being part of the hijacking. That's why I said "thread hijacked" in MY post. We are no longer talking about the OP's actual question. We were arguing about something important to us (though somewhat related to the question as you rightly point out). That constitutes thread hijacking.

I have occasional insomnia (if there is such a thing). I just watched the entire Aniruhd Patel lecture.

Who's Aniruhd Patel? I believe I saw a thread with that name recently, but I didn't get around to reading it.

Hope you get some sleep.

Thanks! I'll listen to that lecture tomorrow. Sounds interesting.

Kbk, I did not use the word "hijack", nor am I aware of thinking such a thing. I did try to open the door back toward the OP's question because I was interested in seeing that angle of it. That is not the same thing as accusations of hijacking.

Btw, for anyone who has PM'd me, I can't get at my messages for some reason since yesterday.

I found a link to YOUR QUOTE, and I'm sorry, it happens to occur in a book about childbirth. I did not write the book. Your quoted author did. That does not make it not valid.

Horowitzian asked you about Dr. Read, which is a reasonable question showing interest in what you were presenting. You did not answer that question. I was also curious about who this doctor was so I found your source and provided the information. This is legit, and in fact, shows interest in what you are saying, and brings the discussion further along.

Perhaps in this case an emoticon was just too efficient in passing on it's message. I find it rude.

Deleted.

That was the point (to show how rude it was).

Deleted.

This has got too silly. I'll PM.

For heaven's sake, if the little fire-man offends you as being rude, why didn't you just say so? I'm not even sure what it means. He's cute in an strange kind of way. Until yesterday I had a working PM - a small word and campfire-guy would have been gone. I've deleted the character. I don't care what you do with your character.

Once again, I have no earthly idea why that emoticon was found to be rude. But let's delete all references to the one keystring posted.