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#492783 - 07/07/07 09:25 AM Re: Bach Prelude C Major - missing a bar?
keyboardklutz Offline
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Registered: 05/21/07
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Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
Sam, Shostakovich is not giving you license to change his or any other's music. He is saying whether your interpretation is correct or not (and it may not be possible to ever know) it must be convincing. As to Bartok and others; obviously a composer does what he likes with his own work. That in no way gives you the same license.
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#492784 - 07/08/07 07:51 AM Re: Bach Prelude C Major - missing a bar?
btb Offline
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Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 4261
Loc: Pretoria South Africa
Hi klutz,
Your thoughts on an extra dynamic to certain Prelude 1 measures sound a bit tenuous (even with the aid of the Schweitzer plug).

One of the illusions in music ... is that "exposed notes" (ie. those notes which TOP or BOTTOM note runs) ... such as the 1st, 5th and 8th note in each half measure of the Prelude 1 ... are "held" ... thus Bach's "semplice legato tenuto" instruction ... and with it a slightly increased dynamic where notes are "exposed".

Any note which peaks a note pattern structure is automatically more prominent ( should go without saying) ... and thereby attracts emphasis ... here's a diagram of the first 4 measures showing the typical 5/3 note structural ripple.

web page

One of the principle factors in the making of a tapestry is to make sure the threads are continuous and neatly tied back to ensure against unravelling ... the same is true of music.

Note the degree sequence in the first 4 measures
13513.513 (repeated)
12624.624
72524.524
13513.513

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#492785 - 07/08/07 09:24 AM Re: Bach Prelude C Major - missing a bar?
keyboardklutz Offline
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btb,

1) there is no semplice legato - your edition can't be urtext

2) the Schweitzer plug was about phrase overlapping

3) you don't seem to have said why I shan't be able to do this on my clavichord

4) nice diagram, but I still don't understand what your saying
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#492786 - 07/09/07 05:13 AM Re: Bach Prelude C Major - missing a bar?
btb Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 4261
Loc: Pretoria South Africa
klutz,
"If only Bach was that simple" had me going ... hopeful of good debate.

1) My Schirmer’s edition possibly anticipated that the keyboard instrument for playing the WTC would be the familiar pianoforte ... when adding the tenuto description ... through reading the lengthened but ghost LH notes from the orignal.
2) Glad to know the triple Dr Schweitzer didn’t propound the notion of “alternating/selective” measure dynamics in the Prelude 1.
3) The strike mechanism of the clavichord (brass tangent on string) precludes the ability to hold a note as with the pianoforte ... however, according to my references “while the tone of the clavichord was very weak, it was capable of reflecting the most delicate gradation of touch and permitted the most exquisite crescendo and decrescendo.”
4. Sorry the linear diagram of the pitch and duration of notes making up the Prelude 1 repeating structural outline passed you by ... the outer edges of the 5-note pattern (C and E in the first measure) gain automatic emphasis (though marginal and of varied dynamic) because of their exposure ... to give the impression of a held note ... being bound by the "unravelling" law of thread continuity.

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#492787 - 07/09/07 11:24 AM Re: Bach Prelude C Major - missing a bar?
Horace Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/28/04
Posts: 505
As I see it, changing tempo or adding ornaments have enough precedence amongst common practice and teachings of the day that they are in no way contrary to the composer's intentions. But when it comes to adding entire measures or changing the notes substantially, it's safe to say that that will "almost certainly" weaken the composition if for no other reason than the person who changed it "almost certainly" isn't as goood a composer as the author. If a performer feels an urge to change a measure or two or to add notes, they have a couple options... either rethink the music and try to find the beauty in the composition as originally written, or create their own music to fit the composition to what they'd like it to be. It seems to be that choosing the latter is an admission of a failure to be able to do the former, and if the former isn't given its due consideration and time then the latter is also the act of a pretty big ego. Not to say that it's impossible that the change might not be for the better, but from the standpoint of an audience member for this changed performance, unless I was bowled over by the change and convinced utterly that it was for the better, I'd probably be asking myself why that pianist thought him or herself justified in changing the composition... i.e., let's check the scoreboard. They're probably just a no name pianist, and they're allegedly improving one of the greatest time tested works of art in western music. There are no lack of runaway egos in the world, so the simplest answer for me at that point would be just that. Find beauty in the composition as it was intended, because it's almost certainly there.

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#492788 - 07/09/07 05:02 PM Re: Bach Prelude C Major - missing a bar?
keyboardklutz Offline
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 Quote:
The strike mechanism of the clavichord (brass tangent on string) precludes the ability to hold a note
You cannot be serious.
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#492789 - 07/10/07 01:48 AM Re: Bach Prelude C Major - missing a bar?
btb Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 4261
Loc: Pretoria South Africa
Why do you think they invented the piano?

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#492790 - 07/10/07 02:05 AM Re: Bach Prelude C Major - missing a bar?
keyboardklutz Offline
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Because it was piano et forte.
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#492791 - 07/10/07 06:18 AM Re: Bach Prelude C Major - missing a bar?
btb Offline
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Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 4261
Loc: Pretoria South Africa
Precisely ... so that we can sustain notes whether piano or forte ... sadly the clavichord
is timid by comparison.

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#492792 - 07/10/07 11:16 AM Re: Bach Prelude C Major - missing a bar?
BWV846 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/08/07
Posts: 29
Loc: New York, New York
Maybe I am stirring the porridge here, but Gounod ain't Bach by any stretch of the (musical) measure.
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#492793 - 07/10/07 01:24 PM Re: Bach Prelude C Major - missing a bar?
keyboardklutz Offline
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Registered: 05/21/07
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Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
Piano et forte has nothing to do with sustain, it's to do with attack.
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#492794 - 07/10/07 02:32 PM Re: Bach Prelude C Major - missing a bar?
drumour Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/08/05
Posts: 847
Loc: Scotland
 Quote:
Originally posted by keyboardklutz:
If only Bach was that simple. It is all 2-bar groups except Bar 8 is both the end of 7-8 and beginning of 8-9 groups.... [/b]
I don't agree. I think the phrasing is much more subtle and that in this case there is no example of a characteristic shared ending/beginning of phrase. The phrase structure is 4x7x8x4(*)x12 - at least that's what the harmonies say. The 12-bar phrase at the end is one huge perfect cadence with a subdom decoration of the last tonic.

(*this would be 5 with the additional bar)


John
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#492795 - 07/10/07 02:50 PM Re: Bach Prelude C Major - missing a bar?
keyboardklutz Offline
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Maybe, more likely it's phrase structures within phrase structures.
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#492796 - 07/10/07 03:12 PM Re: Bach Prelude C Major - missing a bar?
Kreisler Offline



Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 13757
Loc: Iowa City, IA
So which version of the French suites should one play? There are two, both of which are Bach's.

As for duty to great minds, who's to say that's what they would've wanted? Why do people assume that the great composers would want us to do exactly what's in the score?

As I've mentioned in other threads, many composers did not agree with their own scores and often made revisions. Chopin, Scriabin, Liszt, Schumann, Rachmaninoff, etc...

I also find it odd that most people think nothing of changing dynamics, tempo, rubato, and phrasing, but when it comes to the notes, everybody freaks out. Since when are the notes more sacred than anything else?
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#492797 - 07/10/07 03:23 PM Re: Bach Prelude C Major - missing a bar?
signa Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/06/04
Posts: 8482
Loc: Ohio, USA
it's all because notes in the music are more represented as the authenticity of an original composition. any note change would mean that one is changing a composer's composition. of course, it's more serious than changing dynamics/tempo/phrasing etc.

if i were Bach, i'd hate it if someone would add to or delete some notes from my composition, unless you name it as your own arrangement.

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#492798 - 07/10/07 03:25 PM Re: Bach Prelude C Major - missing a bar?
Monica K. Offline

Platinum Supporter until Dec 31 2012


Registered: 08/10/05
Posts: 17733
Loc: Lexington, Kentucky
 Quote:
Originally posted by Kreisler:
I also find it odd that most people think nothing of changing dynamics, tempo, rubato, and phrasing, but when it comes to the notes, everybody freaks out. Since when are the notes more sacred than anything else? [/b]
Maybe it's because the notes are specific and definite, whereas dynamics are more indefinite or ambiguous? There's a certain amount of latitude in determining where the cutoff between p and pp is... and unless there's a metronome marking given, an indicated tempo marking refers to a fairly wide range. Similarly, just saying to play something with rubato doesn't tell you EXACTLY which notes to hold a tad longer. But if a note on a score is a middle C, there's nothing ambiguous about it.
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#492799 - 07/10/07 03:33 PM Re: Bach Prelude C Major - missing a bar?
keyboardklutz Offline
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Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
 Quote:
I also find it odd that most people think nothing of changing dynamics, tempo, rubato, and phrasing,
Kreisler, since when? A piece of music IS its dynamics, tempo and phrasing. If most people think nothing of changing these then most people think nothing about music.
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#492800 - 07/12/07 04:57 AM Re: Bach Prelude C Major - missing a bar?
keyboardklutz Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

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Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
btb, well my clavichord arrived less than an hour ago. I've un-crated, tuned a couple of notes and here we are: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d2iq18nDEkg
I've never played the clavichord before so my touch isn't quite there.

Most interesting is the reverse of what btb says of sustain. You are in total charge of it. The sustain only happens as long as you are putting pressure on the keys. It's a beautiful feeling.

Next I shall learn to tune it (sorry about that).
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#492801 - 07/12/07 09:00 AM Re: Bach Prelude C Major - missing a bar?
btb Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 4261
Loc: Pretoria South Africa
We mustn’t disturb klutz when he is tuning his new clavichord ... we don’t know as yet whether it is fretted or unfretted clavichord ... if its fretted (which means that the notes share strings) he will then be limited to C or C#, D, Eb or E, F or F#, G or G#, A and Bb or B ...
which means that the two linked notes can’t be played together ... not that this eventuality would occur in the playing of Bach WTC Prelude 1
where the maestro kicks off with a single-note profile that works through all 12 basic keyboard notes separately ... maybe klutz has sought a broader canvas and acquired an unfretted clavichord which has a separate string/s for each of the 12 basic notes.

But when klutz has finished his tuning ... which from all accounts is a frequent labour of love whether by ear or with an electronic device ...
we can be sure to hear more of the delicate touch necessary to make this glorious anachronism speak ... congratulations on the purchase.

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#492802 - 07/12/07 09:36 AM Re: Bach Prelude C Major - missing a bar?
keyboardklutz Offline
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unfretted
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#492803 - 07/12/07 09:47 AM Re: Bach Prelude C Major - missing a bar?
Chris H. Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/05
Posts: 2838
Loc: UK.
Keyboardklutz, I really enjoyed that video. Thanks for sharing that.

Whilst I was there I noticed this related video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8UsPaiGUCss

Now that is wierd.
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#492804 - 07/12/07 09:54 AM Re: Bach Prelude C Major - missing a bar?
keyboardklutz Offline
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Registered: 05/21/07
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Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
That was very entertaining. Each to his own.
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#492805 - 07/12/07 10:13 AM Re: Bach Prelude C Major - missing a bar?
Chris H. Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/05
Posts: 2838
Loc: UK.
I can't wait to see the fugue played on 3 electric guitars.
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