In measure 18, there's a single triplet played against 2 8th notes.

I know the first beat of the triplet falls coincident with the first 8th note, then the middle triple sounds, then the 2nd 8th note, then the final triplet.

And I know the 2nd 8th note crowds close to the 2nd triplet.

What I don't know is how to count this accurately, which means I don't play it consistently. Could someone share a counting sequence that will help with this?

Thanks,
Dan

For practice sake, count the LH 8th notes as "one-and-two-and-three-and..."

Count the rh triplets as "one-and-a-two-..." each syllable given equal length.

You can't really count them both together. One way to practice (there are lots of ways) is repeating that triplet figure in your right hand a few times, then the lh a few times, then right, then left. Then repeat the rh over and over, but every once in a while insert the lh.

Also, keep in mind that at that point in the music, you should be slowing down a little after the stretto, and there shoild be some flexibility with the tempo.

Since three and two have a lowest common multiple of six, it's possible to play three against two in perfect rhythm at this tempo by counting in six. If you play the triplet notes as 'ONE, TWO-and THREE' the l.h. chord should fall on the 'and'. The rhyme 'tea, coffee, tea' is a good way to illustrate it. This diagram should make things clear:



Try playing the first example without the tie in the right hand to get a feel for the rhythm.

jpw101 :

Good one! Clear, and to the point.

Regards,

Excellent! I've never seen that one before.

"tea coffee tea." Gotta remember that one.

Cool! Tea, coffee, tea or me!

Thanks jp for the info. I'll try it out today over lunch.

Dan

You're welcome

Ok, this is working pretty good.

Here's what I ended up doing. I used the phrase "tea, coffee, tea, me" with the final "me" getting me back to the 3rd beat in the measure. So I count the full measure as

"one and two and tea coffee tea me and four and"

I setup the metronome on my little keyboard I have at work to 80 bpm (the 8th note rate I'm currently playing the piece at, giving me a tick on every beat and every "and" of the beat) and worked the triplet right hand alone until I could reliably get the "fee" in coffee to land on what would normally be the "and of 2" tick. (The repeated 16th note for the middle note of the triplet really helped with this). Then I started playing the left hand chord also as a repeated 16th in the middle of the triplet. After I could do that, I added the lh chord that immediately follows the triplet along with the single rh note in that location, making sure both sound on the tick. And finally I eliminated the 2nd rt hand 16th note and the first left hand 16th note in the middle of the triplet. After which I'm playing the 3 against 2 with a consistent (and correct) rhythm.

Pretty cool, and not so hard once I had a method to attack it.

Thanks again jp, and everyone else for offering your help and support.

Dan

Hi Dan,
The metronome might be a good way to get the basic timing right at the start.

But if you want to give the Prelude in E it's sad lyrical passion you will need to come to terms with Chopin's use of rubato (variations in tempo). The Largo time signature is merely a clue.

The 1st measure is completed in 3 seconds while the 4th stretches to a "longing" 4.5 seconds.
At the close the pace of the measures slackens as shown below to end in a distant pp whisper.

19 - 3 seconds
20 - 4
21 - 4
22 - 4.5
23 - 5
24 - 7
15 = 7

Beethoven might have backed Maelzel's invention of the chronometer (predecessor to the metronome) at the time, but one doubts if Chopin's genius was ever bound by strict tempo.

btb :

I totally disagree with what you are suggesting here. Chopin's rubato consisted of - according to all historical accounts I have read - a slight stretching of the tempo in the RH while the LH kept a relatively - emphasis on the word "relatively" - strict tempo; not metronomically strict, of course, but relatively even.

At a tempo (suggested) of 66 = quarter note, how could you play measure one in three seconds and then slow the tempo by 1.5 times to play measure four? Why would you want to "slog" through measure four when the tempo of the piece has barely been established?

Bar 15 : 7 seconds at your tempo: more than twice as slow as the opening bar which sets the tempo?

The only markings in the score that indicate tempo changes are in bar 20 (stretto) and a ritardando beginning at bar 22.

None of what you suggest makes any musical sense to me.

Regards,

Hi BruceD,
Thanks for your comments.

It says something for the subtlety of Chopin's rubato. The smoothness of a rendition by an Ashkinazy or Rubinstein totally escapes most listeners awareness of variations in tempo.

Without labouring the subject, SoundBlaster measures the seconds of each passing bar to reach the conclusions in the earlier post. No mention was made of bar 15 being 7 seconds.

The stretto means "drawn together" - a marginal accelerando over bars 16-18. The "smorzando" from bars 21-23 literally means "extinguishing" which implies a subtle slowing down as the piece dies adding "pauses" at bars 23 and 25.

The wonder of Chopin is that he could throw off the shackles of strict tempo characteristic of the earlier Baroque and Classical periods - a true pioneer of the Romantic era.

Best wishes

btb:

Yes, not to labor the subject, but if you re-read your original post, your last "listing" of bars lists bar 15 at 7 seconds.

Did you mean to type bar 25?

Whose performance were you using to time with SoundBlaster?

Regards,

Hi BruceD,
Sorry about the typo in the closing number series - apologies for the confusion.
The recording I have is by Alfred Cortot.
Munchen 1955/1956.

Good to share interest on the Opus 28.