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#498886 - 07/29/08 06:54 PM Re: So, how do YOU pronounce Poulenc?
sotto voce Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/15/06
Posts: 6163
Loc: Briarcliff Manor, NY, USA
 Quote:
Originally posted by Fleeting Visions:
You don't pronounce the s at the end of Saint-Saens, and Hahn is not a French name, but your other examples are right. You will also find that the French are less rigorous with the rule, and will say the s at the end of fils, among many others. [/b]
According to the sources I've checked, Saint-Saëns is one of those many other French words in which the final s is pronounced. Check out what a native speaker of French says here .

A salient excerpt:
 Quote:
READ MY LIPS -- once and for all, it is pronounced Camille Saint-Sahnsss. Get it? And, since there are always some know-it-all Americans (whose ignorance matches their conceit) who have the pretension to teach me my own native tongue, to those I say, if you don't believe me, look it in up in the "Petit Larousse" or "Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary," both of which agree the correct promunciation is "Saint-Sahnsss."
Steven
_________________________

"There are two means of refuge from the miseries of life: music and cats."
—Albert Schweitzer

Chopin: Allegro de Concert Op. 46
Schumann: Toccata Op. 7
Fauré: Ballade Op. 19

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#498887 - 07/29/08 06:58 PM Re: So, how do YOU pronounce Poulenc?
currawong Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/15/07
Posts: 5899
Loc: Down Under
I'm suspecting more and more as this thread goes on that we hear through the filter of how we ourselves (and those around us) speak. So two people (from different parts of the English-speaking world) will hear something and interpret it according to their own pronunciation habit. We all think we speak normally and it's all the other people who have accents, don't we \:\) .

I find it all very interesting.
_________________________
Du holde Kunst...

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#498888 - 07/29/08 07:00 PM Re: So, how do YOU pronounce Poulenc?
Fleeting Visions Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/21/06
Posts: 1501
Loc: Champaign, IL
Thanks for the heads-up, although I'll make a quick comment on dictionaries: They descriptive, not definitive. They say how things are said, not what is correct. The French people I know aren't musicians, and so I've never had a chance to hear them say it.
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Amateur Pianist, Scriabin Enthusiast, and Octave Demon

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#498889 - 07/29/08 07:17 PM Re: So, how do YOU pronounce Poulenc?
sotto voce Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/15/06
Posts: 6163
Loc: Briarcliff Manor, NY, USA
That's interesting, as the complaint about language reference books (including dictionaries) is typically the opposite one: that they are prescriptive as to what is "correct," rather than necessarily descriptive of what people really say and do.

If dictionaries aren't definitive sources for what is "correct," then what would be?

Steven
_________________________

"There are two means of refuge from the miseries of life: music and cats."
—Albert Schweitzer

Chopin: Allegro de Concert Op. 46
Schumann: Toccata Op. 7
Fauré: Ballade Op. 19

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#498890 - 07/29/08 07:22 PM Re: So, how do YOU pronounce Poulenc?
keystring Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11548
Loc: Canada
 Quote:
I'm suspecting more and more as this thread goes on that we hear through the filter of how we ourselves (and those around us) speak.
Currawong, that's it exactly. Our linguistics prof. called that "le filtre phonologique". We translate what we hear into sounds we already know. Learning from written language, or knowing how something is spelled is the worst thing, because we will translate into the sounds those letters represent in the known language. That's why Germans say "Ven ve valk to Vashington." when they are perfectly capable of pronouncing "w".

I've used some of my theories in learning my sixth language (w.i.p.), becoming neutral as a child, and listening to rhythms first. I was teaching one-on-one with an aim to fluency and fluid native quality pronunciation - my two students already have several languages. Some of our exercises were closer to being music lessons as we worked on hearing the flow of two or three sounds together and truly hearing it. Mostly the mispronunciations stem from the ear and not the vocal aparatus. We also worked with the cadences of a language - the rhythms and rise and fall of a voice, sometimes humming the "melody" of a phrase and then inserting the words into it. I got this idea by observing how babies babble. A French baby says Mamamamama differently than an English or German or Russian baby.

I risk going off on a major treatise on the similarities between language and music so I'll stop here.

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#498891 - 07/29/08 07:25 PM Re: So, how do YOU pronounce Poulenc?
keystring Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11548
Loc: Canada
 Quote:
If dictionaries aren't definitive sources for what is "correct," then what would be?
Real speaking persons, preferably a native speaker, preferably a linguist or actor trained in clean enunciation.

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#498892 - 07/29/08 07:36 PM Re: So, how do YOU pronounce Poulenc?
currawong Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/15/07
Posts: 5899
Loc: Down Under
 Quote:
Originally posted by sotto voce:
That's interesting, as the complaint about language reference books (including dictionaries) is typically the opposite one: that they are prescriptive as to what is "correct," rather than necessarily descriptive of what people really say and do. [/b]
(Did I mention I'm finding this discussion interesting? \:\) )

Yet many people I come across fume about how dictionaries are increasingly including words and usages which they (the people) always considered "wrong" - and they are being included because usage changes, dictionaries just record what is now common usage (you know, the "impact" as a verb thing, which I still don't use \:\) ).

Maybe half the people are complaining for one reason, and the other half for the opposite reason. That'd be right \:\) .
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Du holde Kunst...

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#498893 - 07/29/08 10:46 PM Re: So, how do YOU pronounce Poulenc?
BruceD Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 17822
Loc: Victoria, BC
 Quote:
Originally posted by Fleeting Visions:
 Quote:
Originally posted by BruceD:
Final consonants in French words (names) are usually[/b] silent, except for C, R, F, and L.
Some notable exceptions :

Herold
Berlioz
Saint-Saëns
Hahn

Regards, [/b]
You don't pronounce the s at the end of Saint-Saens, and Hahn is not a French name, but your other examples are right. You will also find that the French are less rigorous with the rule, and will say the s at the end of fils, among many others. [/b]
Yes, one does pronounce the final "s" of Saint-Saëns. Check any reliable French biographical dictionary that gives pronunciation and you'll find this to be the case.

IPA transcription : [sɛ̃ sãs] Petit Robert Dictionnaire universel des noms propres (the first tilde should be over[/b] the first e, indicating nasalization, but it didn't copy correctly from my word document)

Regards,
_________________________
BruceD
- - - - -
Estonia 190

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#498894 - 07/30/08 12:45 PM Re: So, how do YOU pronounce Poulenc?
timbo77 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/24/07
Posts: 268
Loc: Singapore
Keystring, by using "lang" and "long" I was referring back to the difference suggested in the original poster's question but also attempting to convey what I as a British English speaker heard from a native Parisian (who had the polite patience to say Poulenc a number of times for me -- she also admitted it was not the first time as a French-speaking musician she had been asked to undertake the exercise).

I'm not sure of the wisdom of trying to copy exactly the French pronunciation, but the following is my best effort. Apologies to all French speakers. My understanding is that a native French speaker would not rhyme the second syllable of Poulenc with "temps" or "Jean". Nor would it be pronounced with the short 'o' in British English "on" (though that is how many English people pronounce it); nor is it pronounced with the long 'a' adopted in American English for the first syllable of "pasta".

A close equivalent to my vulgar English ears was to rhyme the second syllable with the French word "cinq". I have no idea whether these are actually phonetically similar, but it works for me.

And on that note, I'm inspired to put Poulenc's concerto for two pianos on the stereo!

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#498895 - 07/30/08 01:10 PM Re: So, how do YOU pronounce Poulenc?
BruceD Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 17822
Loc: Victoria, BC
 Quote:
Originally posted by timbo77:
A close equivalent to my vulgar English ears was to rhyme the second syllable with the French word "cinq". I have no idea whether these are actually phonetically similar, but it works for me.

[/b]
Yes, the last syllable of Poulenc and the French number cinq have exactly the same nasal vowel sound, and both end with the same velar consonant sound.

[pu lɛ̃k]

[sɛ̃k]

Regards,
_________________________
BruceD
- - - - -
Estonia 190

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#498896 - 07/30/08 01:20 PM Re: So, how do YOU pronounce Poulenc?
sotto voce Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/15/06
Posts: 6163
Loc: Briarcliff Manor, NY, USA
 Quote:
Originally posted by BruceD:
 Quote:
Originally posted by timbo77:
A close equivalent to my vulgar English ears was to rhyme the second syllable with the French word "cinq". I have no idea whether these are actually phonetically similar, but it works for me.

[/b]
Yes, the last syllable of Poulenc and the French number cinq have exactly the same nasal vowel sound, and both end with the same velar consonant sound.

[pu lɛ̃k]

[sɛ̃k]

Regards, [/b]
I said that four days (and two pages) ago. Sometimes one has the feeling of shouting into a vacuum here.
 Quote:
Originally posted by sotto voce:
Dang, I've been using the wrong vowel! I had assumed that it was the same as in sans or France, when in reality it's the one in cinq (or Chopin!).

I didn't consider that en sometimes goes both ways: vendredi, comprend ... vs. rien, bien, chien. But not usually, n'est-ce pas, Bruce? Isn't it typically represented by in or ain and not by en other than in the combination ien?

I will now Anglicize Poulenc to "poo LANK" rather than "poo LAHNK."

Thanks, you guys. I love both French and phonology!

Steven [/b]
_________________________

"There are two means of refuge from the miseries of life: music and cats."
—Albert Schweitzer

Chopin: Allegro de Concert Op. 46
Schumann: Toccata Op. 7
Fauré: Ballade Op. 19

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#498897 - 07/30/08 01:21 PM Re: So, how do YOU pronounce Poulenc?
keystring Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11548
Loc: Canada
nm

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#498898 - 07/30/08 01:44 PM Re: So, how do YOU pronounce Poulenc?
Gyro Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/24/05
Posts: 4533
When I say "longer," I mean longer in
duration. In a desk dictionary the "o"
in "on" and the "o" in "long" are marked with
the same sound, but in pronouncing them
the time duration of the vowel sound is
typically different. In "on" the "o" can be
pronounced in the back of the mouth with
little lip movement, but in "long" the
initial consonant forces a longer duration
of the vowel sound and you have to use
more lip action to say the vowel.

For example, the "a" in "father" and the
"a" in "about" have approximately the
same base sound, but in saying them the
"a" in "father" typically has a longer
time duration due to the initial consonant,
and you need to use more lip movement too.

In French I think an example would be the
"e" in "en" and the "a" in "voyance."
Both vowels have nominally the same sound,
but the time duration is longer in "voyance"
due to the consonant before the vowel.

So "pou-langk" would have the short
(in duration) English "o" sound--this
would be similar to the French pronunciation.
"Pou-longk" would have the longer
(in duration) English "o" sound--
this is how an English speaker might
try to reproduce the French pronunciation;
the difference is slight to an English-speaker's
ears, but a native French speaker would pick
this up.

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#498899 - 07/30/08 01:48 PM Re: So, how do YOU pronounce Poulenc?
keystring Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11548
Loc: Canada
It would make much more sense to find or create an audible type dictionary, and to denote region. Otherwise none of this makes sense. British pronunciation of English is not the same as that in Canada, the United States, Australia etc., and even these countries have regions. There is a difference between the French spoken in France, parts of Africa (my favourite), Quebec, and the Creole of the U.S. - etc.

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#498900 - 07/30/08 01:55 PM Re: So, how do YOU pronounce Poulenc?
sotto voce Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/15/06
Posts: 6163
Loc: Briarcliff Manor, NY, USA
But [pu lɛ̃ k] is pronounced [pu lɛ̃ k] everywhere.

Steven
_________________________

"There are two means of refuge from the miseries of life: music and cats."
—Albert Schweitzer

Chopin: Allegro de Concert Op. 46
Schumann: Toccata Op. 7
Fauré: Ballade Op. 19

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#498901 - 07/30/08 03:05 PM Re: So, how do YOU pronounce Poulenc?
keystring Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11548
Loc: Canada
The trouble is that I'm flying blind here, Steven. You are involved in languages and linguistics, I know that much. But are you in the field hearing different dialects, required to speak and hear French in a variety of settings? This is where my impression comes that vowels in particular are pronounced differently in different regions, and are subject to shifts even in our lifetimes.

I have interpreted in person and done telephone interpretation, hearing a wide variety of dialects with a few seconds to adjust unless I want to appear to be an unprofessional dolt. There is a huge variety of ways that [pu lɛ̃ k] will be pronounced - in some areas of Quebec the nasal sound will be a wide dipthong. Lundi becomes Lund-zi, "Je ne suis pas" becomes "chupo" etc. Vowels are more subject to shifts than consonants. Currently a vowel shift is happening in English - as I found out when telephone interpreting in the campaign for "shacks and struts". The shacks were not wooden huts, but the pronunciation in a particular area of the U.S. of the word "shock", as in "shack absorber". The vowel shift from "o" to "a" is creeping into the Niagara region of Ontario, I'm told. Anyhow - since this is a piano site, I shouldn't write more.

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#498902 - 07/30/08 03:25 PM Re: So, how do YOU pronounce Poulenc?
sotto voce Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/15/06
Posts: 6163
Loc: Briarcliff Manor, NY, USA
When I said [pu lɛ̃ k] is [pu lɛ̃ k] everywhere, I didn't mean /pu lɛ̃ k/ (i.e., phonemic) is [pu lɛ̃ k] everywhere!

To the extent pronunciation varies according to regional dialect, a narrower phonetic transcription can show allophonic differences or subtle variations. I still don't think there's much potential for [pu lɛ̃ k], as a broad transcription, to be misunderstood.

Steven
_________________________

"There are two means of refuge from the miseries of life: music and cats."
—Albert Schweitzer

Chopin: Allegro de Concert Op. 46
Schumann: Toccata Op. 7
Fauré: Ballade Op. 19

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#498903 - 07/30/08 03:32 PM Re: So, how do YOU pronounce Poulenc?
keystring Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11548
Loc: Canada
There is no such thing as one standard pronunciation in real life. We must be talking about International Parisian French. That's good enough for me.

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#498904 - 07/30/08 03:48 PM Re: So, how do YOU pronounce Poulenc?
sotto voce Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/15/06
Posts: 6163
Loc: Briarcliff Manor, NY, USA
Indeed, there are as many idiolects as there are people.

Steven
_________________________

"There are two means of refuge from the miseries of life: music and cats."
—Albert Schweitzer

Chopin: Allegro de Concert Op. 46
Schumann: Toccata Op. 7
Fauré: Ballade Op. 19

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#498905 - 07/30/08 04:04 PM Re: So, how do YOU pronounce Poulenc?
Gyro Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/24/05
Posts: 4533
The pronunciation of the word "shack" (wood
hut) is pretty much standard across the US.
This is because this particular word has
definite connotations in English, generally
all negative, and thus with such a hard-htting
word you need to be careful with it's use; so
there is a definite and universal pronunciation
so that there is never any confusion about
its use. Thus, no other word would be
pronounced the same as it, and certainly
not the word "shock." There is no "vowel
shift" currently going on that makes
"shock" sound the same as "shack."

There might be certain regional differences
in the pronunciation of "shock," such
that it might come out something like
"she-YAK," but this is nothing new and
should be par for the course for an
interpreter. The word "shack" (SHAK) is unique
in English and no other word is pronounced
like it.

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#498906 - 07/30/08 04:47 PM Re: So, how do YOU pronounce Poulenc?
sotto voce Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/15/06
Posts: 6163
Loc: Briarcliff Manor, NY, USA
 Quote:
Originally posted by Gyro:
The pronunciation of the word "shack" (wood
hut) is pretty much standard across the US.
This is because this particular word has
definite connotations in English, generally
all negative, and thus with such a hard-htting
word you need to be careful with it's use; so
there is a definite and universal pronunciation
so that there is never any confusion about
its use. Thus, no other word would be
pronounced the same as it, and certainly
not the word "shock." There is no "vowel
shift" currently going on that makes
"shock" sound the same as "shack."

There might be certain regional differences
in the pronunciation of "shock," such
that it might come out something like
"she-YAK," but this is nothing new and
should be par for the course for an
interpreter. The word "shack" (SHAK) is unique
in English and no other word is pronounced
like it. [/b]


Gyro, you've outdone yourself here.

I don't believe that a word's meaning or connotation is necessarily predictive of linguistic change—but if you don't like shock/shack, then stock/stack illustrates the same process KS describes. (And if it's spreading into the Niagara region of Ontario, that's because of where it's coming from.)

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Cities_Vowel_Shift
 Quote:
/ɑ/ is pulled forward toward [a], occupying a position very close to the position of former /æ/, and in some very advanced speakers an identical position.
From http://www.ic.arizona.edu/~lsp/Northeast/ncshift/ncshift2.html
 Quote:
For example, the vowel of the shifted (advanced) pronunciation of stock is quite similar to the vowel of pre-shift stack.
For more general information, see http://www.ic.arizona.edu/~lsp/Northeast/ncshift/ncshift.html

Steven
_________________________

"There are two means of refuge from the miseries of life: music and cats."
—Albert Schweitzer

Chopin: Allegro de Concert Op. 46
Schumann: Toccata Op. 7
Fauré: Ballade Op. 19

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#498907 - 07/30/08 05:12 PM Re: So, how do YOU pronounce Poulenc?
keystring Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11548
Loc: Canada
Gyro, I spent four months fielding calls that went between a region of the U.S. and Quebec, where I was the telephone interpreter. It is not my imagination that the American party would refer to shock absorbers, but pronounce it as "shack" absorber. This is not a theoretical idea - this is in the field experience. The pronunciation veered so much to the short a that I misunderstood the first time (the word "absorber" generally wasn't used) and I thought they were indeed talking about the building. I also researched with my peers about the phenomenon. It's like with music - we can read lots of things about things, but those who are in the field will know things that are not reflected in the books (music, in this case), and their experiences tend to be the real McCoy.

Thanks, Steven, for pulling out the links. Fascinating.

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#498908 - 07/30/08 05:25 PM Re: So, how do YOU pronounce Poulenc?
sotto voce Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/15/06
Posts: 6163
Loc: Briarcliff Manor, NY, USA
Googling "northern cities vowel shift" returned over 3,000 hits, including this one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9UoJ1-ZGb1w

Bill Labov on YouTube! Who knew?

A very interesting aspect of the shift is that (as Labor mentions early in this clip) the English of the American Midwest has long been the standard for "newscaster" English (i.e., our version of "Received Pronunciation" and a neutral common denominator)—and now it's changing on us!

I almost forgot to mention that not all connotations of shack are negative. What about love shack? :2hearts:



Steven
_________________________

"There are two means of refuge from the miseries of life: music and cats."
—Albert Schweitzer

Chopin: Allegro de Concert Op. 46
Schumann: Toccata Op. 7
Fauré: Ballade Op. 19

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#498909 - 07/30/08 06:37 PM Re: So, how do YOU pronounce Poulenc?
currawong Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/15/07
Posts: 5899
Loc: Down Under
Just a totally irrelevant anecdote here (well it is about vowels, I suppose):

NZ vowels are ubiquitous here in Australia. We make fun of them in a friendly cross-Tasman sort of way all the time. Some years ago we were living near a naval air base and there were quite a few New Zealanders working there, one of whom told us his area of work was "spears". Well, everyone said the armed forces were underfunded, but we had an instant vision of this guy leaning out the window of the fighter plane chucking spears.

Of course he was saying "spares", as in "spare parts" ...
_________________________
Du holde Kunst...

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#498910 - 07/31/08 03:15 AM Re: So, how do YOU pronounce Poulenc?
nigelkeay Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 7
Loc: Paris
Ten years of living in France has gone a long way in helping me lose much/some? of the NZ accent I had. Shortly after arriving here I remember causing confusion talking about the shear market.
_________________________
composer & violist

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#498911 - 07/31/08 11:32 AM Re: So, how do YOU pronounce Poulenc?
Gyro Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/24/05
Posts: 4533
Keystring, the word "shack" in English is
unique in pronunciation, because of the
generally negative connotations associated with
it. No one in the US would pronounce
another word exactly like it. In some
regions of the US, maybe the NY city area,
some people might pronounce "shock" so that
it roughly resembles "shack," maybe something
like "she-yak," but there's a big difference
to American ears, and no one would confuse
it with "shack." Your French-tuned ears
don't pick up the difference, but it's there.
The difference is in the time duration
and/or intonation of the vowel. A New Yorker
will pronounce the word "shack" in a certain way
that is unique, and will pronounce no other
word exactly like it.

This might be similar to "pou-langk" and
"pou-longk." An English-speaker's
ears don't pick up the difference between
the vowel sounds in these pronunciations,
but a native French speaker would pick it
up right away.

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#498912 - 07/31/08 12:13 PM Re: So, how do YOU pronounce Poulenc?
keystring Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11548
Loc: Canada
Gyro, I don't have "French-tuned ears". My native language is Canadian English. French is my third language. Secondly, this is absurd. You have devised a theory with no experience behind it. I spent four months hearing people from call centers with varying regional dialects, hearing their overall pronunciation of words: all of them said "shock" in whatever way they said it, but they pronounced other words similarly. If you wish to duplicate my experience I suggest that you phone people at random across America and ask them to read a sample sentence to you, so that you can hear the speech patterns and come to your own conclusions.

You are inventing linguistic theory as you go, and you are presenting them to an experienced linguist who works in particular, when teaching, in native-language pronunciation and fluidity. Nor am I an academician: I am experienced in the field and have applied my knowledge in practical venues. This is silly.

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#498913 - 07/31/08 12:34 PM Re: So, how do YOU pronounce Poulenc?
sotto voce Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/15/06
Posts: 6163
Loc: Briarcliff Manor, NY, USA
 Quote:
Originally posted by Gyro:
[...]
[/b]
"Disinformation, wrapped in assertions, inside dogma." (Thanks, Piano*Dad.)

"The problem isn't what we don't know; it's what we're sure of that just ain't so." (Thanks to whomever had this in a sig line somewhere.)

Gyro's problem, demonstrated time and time again, isn't just ignorance—it's his infallible certitude that what's wrong is actually correct.

He's so out of his league here that the palaver is even more tiresome, absurd and embarrassing than usual.

Steven
_________________________

"There are two means of refuge from the miseries of life: music and cats."
—Albert Schweitzer

Chopin: Allegro de Concert Op. 46
Schumann: Toccata Op. 7
Fauré: Ballade Op. 19

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#498914 - 07/31/08 01:14 PM Re: So, how do YOU pronounce Poulenc?
keystring Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11548
Loc: Canada
Steven, if I haven't said so, the clip you put up yesterday was fascinating. Did you see the actress in one of the accompanying side clips (do these have a name?) who introduces herself in various English accents around the world?

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#498915 - 07/31/08 01:25 PM Re: So, how do YOU pronounce Poulenc?
sotto voce Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/15/06
Posts: 6163
Loc: Briarcliff Manor, NY, USA
KS, I did see that! It's great how YouTube can compile a list of "related videos" that might be of interest based on what one is looking at.

BTW, thanks to the folks "down under" for those tidbits about local pronunciation. I knew nothing about that, or even that Wikipedia would have detailed articles on Australian English and New Zealand English (which, of course, it does!).

Steven
_________________________

"There are two means of refuge from the miseries of life: music and cats."
—Albert Schweitzer

Chopin: Allegro de Concert Op. 46
Schumann: Toccata Op. 7
Fauré: Ballade Op. 19

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