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Topic Options
#499802 - 10/19/05 04:25 AM Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays.
Ronel Augustyn Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/14/05
Posts: 527
Loc: Bloemfontein,SA
 Quote:
Originally posted by pianojerome:
[QUOTE] Do you think that there are a lot more male pianists than female pianists in South Africa? [/b]
Maybe a little bit, say the ratio is 60/40. But still I can't even picture a lesbian pianist. the funny thing is, I think there's more lesbians studying art here - maybe that's where threy're all hiding!

Hi from South Africa
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lallie

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#499803 - 10/19/05 07:07 AM Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays.
btb Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 4264
Loc: Pretoria South Africa
My upbringing taught me to hate queers, blacks, Nazis, Moslems, Israelis, Iraqis - that's why I am now poor, disadvantaged, hungry and friendless.

What a way to go!!

But then only a bigot would find time to dwell on the misfortune of others. Don't squander the miraculous camaraderie of piano music.
Time to get real folks!!

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#499804 - 10/19/05 12:50 PM Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays.
Monica K. Offline

Platinum Supporter until Dec 31 2012


Registered: 08/10/05
Posts: 17855
Loc: Lexington, Kentucky
As I was reading this thread, it struck me that this really is an empirical question, so I got to wondering what the psych literature had to say about it. I did a PsycINFO search crossing the term "sexual orientation" with "music*" (nothing showed up when I made it specific to "pianists"), and I found only one relevant citation. The finding of greatest interest for this thread is embedded halfway through the abstract, where they report finding no relation between sexual orientation and "higher innate creativity through greater amateur production of art."

Full abstract:

DT: Peer-Reviewed-Journal AU: Lewis,-Gregory-B; Seaman,-Bruce-A TI: Sexual Orientation and Demand for the Arts. SO: Social-Science-Quarterly. Sep 2004; Vol 85 (3): 523-538 IS: 0038-4941 (Print) AB: (from the journal abstract) Objective: We establish and try to explain a gay affinity for the arts. Methods: Using logit analysis on the General Social Survey, we test whether demographics, creativity, gender nonconformity, and sexual repression can explain differences between lesbians, gay men, and bisexuals (LGBs) and others in attendance at art museums, classical music concerts, and dance performances. Results: LGBs' higher education and probability of being childless city-dwellers explain one-third of the substantial attendance differences. However, LGBs do not demonstrate higher innate creativity through greater amateur production of art; gay men's affinity for the arts appears no stronger than lesbians', casting doubt on the gender nonconformity explanation; and LGB-straight attendance differences are as large among young as older respondents, despite supposed declines in the special functions of arts attendance since gay liberation. Conclusions: LGBs are much more likely to attend the arts than demographically similar heterosexuals, but we find little support for three conventional explanations.
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My YouTube channel: http://www.youtube.com/pianomonica

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#499805 - 10/19/05 07:45 PM Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays.
Hank Drake Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/31/01
Posts: 1679
Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
I've heard that Vladimir Horowitz commented that there were three kinds of pianists: Jewish, homosexual, and bad.
_________________________
Hank Drake

The composers want performers be imaginative, in the direction of their thinking--not just robots, who execute orders.
George Szell

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#499806 - 10/19/05 09:05 PM Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays.
pianojerome Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 9868
 Quote:
Originally posted by Hank Drake:
I've heard that Vladimir Horowitz commented that there were three kinds of pianists: Jewish, homosexual, and bad. [/b]
Yup:

 Quote:
Originally posted by pianojerome:
 Quote:
Originally posted by boomerpizza:
Did anyone brought up the horowitz quote yet?
Something like all great pianists are either jewish or gay. All of the heteros better start convertin. (or become gay) [/b]
"There are three kinds of pianists: Jewish pianists, homosexual pianists, and bad pianists."

(Horowitz was two of the three.) [/b]
_________________________
Sam

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#499807 - 10/20/05 12:06 AM Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays.
Bassio Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/24/03
Posts: 2480
Loc: Alexandria, Egypt
Out of topic:
But most jewish pianists are really good pianists.

There are so many:
horowitz, friedman, rubinstein, ashkenazy

What is the secret?

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#499808 - 10/20/05 12:26 AM Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays.
WCSMinorCircuit Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/11/04
Posts: 1124
Loc: California
 Quote:
Originally posted by Bassio:
Out of topic:
But most jewish pianists are really good pianists.

There are so many:
horowitz, friedman, rubinstein, ashkenazy

What is the secret? [/b]
Ashkenzy was Jewish? Wow. I could have sworn he was Russian. From which more pianists would have emerged from.
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#499809 - 10/20/05 12:28 AM Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays.
ChatNoir Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/19/05
Posts: 1493
Loc: Encino, California
 Quote:
Originally posted by Bassio:
Out of topic:
But most jewish pianists are really good pianists.

There are so many:
horowitz, friedman, rubinstein, ashkenazy

What is the secret? [/b]
Practice, young man, practice!
_________________________
Some men are music lovers. Others make love without it.

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#499810 - 10/20/05 12:31 AM Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays.
CCM Stephen Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/21/04
Posts: 461
Loc: Savannah GA
 Quote:
Originally posted by JosephS.:
Ashkenzy was Jewish? Wow. I could have sworn he was Russian. From which more pianists would have emerged from. [/QB]
Why are Russian and Jewish mutually exclusive?

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#499811 - 10/20/05 03:45 AM Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays.
-Frycek Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/06/05
Posts: 5921
Loc: SC Mountains
 Quote:
Originally posted by CCM Stephen:
 Quote:
Originally posted by JosephS.:
Ashkenzy was Jewish? Wow. I could have sworn he was Russian. From which more pianists would have emerged from. [/b]
Why are Russian and Jewish mutually exclusive? [/QB]
It may not be a logical distinction to Westerners but in the Russian mind being Jewish and Russian are mutually exclusive. Being Jewish is regarded as being more of a nationality or ethnic group than a religion. Russians (Slavs from Russia proper) regard themselves as an ethnic group separate from Ukrainians, Cossacks, Tadjiks, etc. though in the West we lump them all together as Russians (at least before the Soviet Union collapsed.) It's not uncommon to hear someone had "a Russian father and a Jewish mother," the same way we might say, "A Russian father and a German mother." My good friend is an elderly pathologist from Ekaterinburg (Ural mountains) who is of course very highly educated. In conversation she frequently makes this distinction between Russians and whomever and thinks Americans are a bit ignorant for not making it.
_________________________
Slow down and do it right.

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#499812 - 10/20/05 04:35 AM Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays.
Derulux Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/06/05
Posts: 5444
Loc: Philadelphia
 Quote:
Why are Russian and Jewish mutually exclusive?
They're not, necessarily.

Being Jewish and being Israeli are not the same thing. There is no "Jew" country for people to be "Jewish" from.

A person is Jewish the same as they are Christian or Muslim (using the three most common).

A person is Russian as they are Israeli as they are Iraqi, Indian, French, German, Spanish, or American.

That is the proper distinction.

It took my roommate dating a Russian Jew (whom I thought must have been the only one in the world), and then ending up dating one myself two years later to find out that there was a Jewish community in Russia. (I always suspected there should have been, especially after WW2 with all the Jews who probably fled across the border...but could never prove it until I dated one. ;\) )
_________________________
Every day we are afforded a new chance. The problem with life is not that you run out of chances. In the end, what you run out of are days.

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#499813 - 10/20/05 09:59 AM Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays.
piqué Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/15/01
Posts: 5484
 Quote:
Originally posted by Bassio:
Out of topic:
But most jewish pianists are really good pianists.

There are so many:
horowitz, friedman, rubinstein, ashkenazy

What is the secret? [/b]
that's why we are called "the chosen people." ;\)
_________________________
piqué

now in paperback:


Grand Obsession: A Piano Odyssey

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#499814 - 10/20/05 10:04 AM Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays.
piqué Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/15/01
Posts: 5484
my family is jewish and from russia. my grandfather emigrated to the u.s. long before WWI, let alone WWII. there have been jews in russia for a very long time, as there have been everywhere.

there are lots of russian jewish musicians, music is a very big part of jewish culture. "ashkenazy" actually means "eastern european jew" which includes russia. my own family are ashkenazy.
_________________________
piqué

now in paperback:


Grand Obsession: A Piano Odyssey

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#499815 - 10/20/05 11:13 AM Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays.
Siddhartha Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/08/04
Posts: 1244
Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
 Quote:
Originally posted by Bassio:
Out of topic:
But most jewish pianists are really good pianists.

[/b]
?!?!?!?!

I'm guessing we probably just havent heard of the really bad ones or mediocre ones.
_________________________
I was born the year Glenn Gould stop playing concerts. Coincidence?

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#499816 - 10/20/05 12:11 PM Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays.
swingal Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/31/05
Posts: 1094
Loc: England
I'm reluctant to enter this rather silly debate.

And I can only speak for the jazz pianists I have known and my own view on this supposed connection to the homosexual tendancies.

Rumour is not really worth considering so unless anyone can quote any pure statistics, I for one cannot comment much.

I do think that a musician on any instrument except drums maybe has to have a sensitivity with his fingers and or his lips. This art of music is of course a mostly a non violent means of spreading vibrations to the air and the ears of the listeners. I fail to see how some gentle playing of certain piano music could really turn a man gay.

I have noticed that there are far more women that idolise and follow the male pianists and they have often stated what a sexy attraction they have for the pianist.

Just look how the women flocked around Fats Waller? Or Oscar Peterson and so on.

So unless we suggest that if a man is sensitive he is usually gay, which I find a very bad suggestion, then we should not debate this too much.IMHO

Alan

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#499817 - 10/20/05 02:09 PM Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays.
Derulux Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/06/05
Posts: 5444
Loc: Philadelphia
 Quote:
So unless we suggest that if a man is sensitive he is usually gay, which I find a very bad suggestion, then we should not debate this too much.
But haven't you ever heard the joke?

"I wish I could find a good man," one woman says to another. "One who's kind, smart, funny, and sensitive."
"They don't exist," the woman replies.
"Oh, but they do," says the first. "The trouble is, they've already got a man." :p ;\)
_________________________
Every day we are afforded a new chance. The problem with life is not that you run out of chances. In the end, what you run out of are days.

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#499818 - 10/20/05 02:54 PM Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays.
Hank Drake Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/31/01
Posts: 1679
Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
 Quote:
Originally posted by Bassio:
Out of topic:
But most jewish pianists are really good pianists.

There are so many:
horowitz, friedman, rubinstein, ashkenazy

What is the secret? [/b]
For Jewish pianists, I'm not sure. But Itzak Perlman has stated that the reason for so many great Jewish violinists is that "the fingers are circumcised, which is great for dexterity--especially in the pinkie."
_________________________
Hank Drake

The composers want performers be imaginative, in the direction of their thinking--not just robots, who execute orders.
George Szell

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#499819 - 10/20/05 05:17 PM Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays.
John Citron Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/15/05
Posts: 3925
Loc: Haverhill, Massachusetts
 Quote:
Originally posted by piqu:
my family is jewish and from russia. my grandfather emigrated to the u.s. long before WWI, let alone WWII. there have been jews in russia for a very long time, as there have been everywhere.

there are lots of russian jewish musicians, music is a very big part of jewish culture. "ashkenazy" actually means "eastern european jew" which includes russia. my own family are ashkenazy. [/b]
I have a similar background on my dad's side. His grandmother came from the Ukraine in 1898 and his grandfather came from Russia in 1901. The rest of the Kooperstocks and Citrons came over between 1912 and 1917, although there may have been others that didn't migrate. The ones that did make it over, settled in Saugus, MA, New York, and New Jersey.

We've been able to trace the family back to villages in Poland, Ukraine, Belarussia, and Russia.

His mother's family, the Kelners, Israels, and Desners came over in the 1850's and 1860's from Russia, and settled in Brooklyn. My great great uncle was a land developer that made a lot of money when the bridge was opened up.

From what I found out, many of the Kooperstocks were musicians, and there's a possibility I am related to Andrew Kooperstock the concert pianist.

John
_________________________
Nothing.

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#499820 - 10/20/05 07:17 PM Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays.
MMSGA Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/21/04
Posts: 393
 Quote:
Originally posted by swingal:

I have noticed that there are far more women that idolise and follow the male pianists and they have often stated what a sexy attraction they have for the pianist.
Alan [/b]
This reminded me of a very well known concert pianist who had a very strong 'blue rinse brigade' following.
However, when he admitted to being on the other side of the fence, his blue-filter lenses were no longer needed...

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#499821 - 10/20/05 08:28 PM Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays.
pianojerome Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 9868
 Quote:
Originally posted by Hank Drake:
 Quote:
Originally posted by Bassio:
Out of topic:
But most jewish pianists are really good pianists.

There are so many:
horowitz, friedman, rubinstein, ashkenazy

What is the secret? [/b]
For Jewish pianists, I'm not sure. But Itzak Perlman has stated that the reason for so many great Jewish violinists is that "the fingers are circumcised, which is great for dexterity--especially in the pinkie." [/b]
:D
_________________________
Sam

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#499822 - 10/20/05 08:39 PM Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays.
pianojerome Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 9868
 Quote:
Originally posted by Derulux:
A person is Jewish the same as they are Christian or Muslim (using the three most common).
[/b]
Eh... no, not really.

It's much more that that. (kind of hard to explain)


In regards to Ashkenazy: his father was Jewish (obviously - what a name!) but his mother was not Jewish.


Here's a list of famous Jewish pianists (since someone asked about Jewish pianists - I bolded some of the big ones):

Charles Alkan
Vladimir Ashkenazy[/b]
Emanuel Ax[/b]
Victor Babin
Gina Bachauer
Dmitri Bashkirov
Daniel Barenboim[/b]
Simon Barere
Boris Berman
Lazar Berman[/b]
Victor Borge[/b]
Alexander Borovsky[/b]
Alexander Brailowsky
Yefim Bronfman[/b]
Ignaz Bruell
Shura Cherkassky[/b]
Harriet Cohen
Bella Davidovich
Misha Dichter[/b]
Samuil Feinberg[/b]
Vladimir Feltsman[/b]
Annie Fischer
Leon Fleisher[/b]
Yakov Flier
Claude Frank[/b]
Ignaz Friedman[/b]
Emil Gilels[/b]
Grigory Ginsburg
Leopold Godowsky[/b]
Alexander Goldenweiser
Richard Goode[/b]
Gary Graffman[/b]
Mark Hambourg
Clara Haskil
Myra Hess[/b]
Vladimir Horovitz[/b]
Eugene Istomin
Byron Janis[/b]
Joseph Kalichstein
William Kapell[/b]
Julius Katchen[/b]
Mindru Katz
Louis Kentner
Evgeny Kissin[/b]
Vladimir Krainev[/b]
Lili Kraus[/b]
Wanda Landowska
Ruth Laredo[/b]
Josef Lhvinne[/b]
Rosina Lhvinne[/b]
Radu Lupu[/b]
Hephzibah Menuhin
Benno Moiseiwitsch
Ignaz Moscheles
Murray Perahia[/b]
Menahem Pressler
Andr Previn[/b]
Michael Roll
Moritz Rosenthal
Anton Rubinstein[/b]
Artur Rubinstein[/b]
Nikolai Rubinstein
Harold Samuel
Andrs Schiff[/b]
Artur Schnabel[/b]
Peter Serkin
Rudolf Serkin[/b]
Abbey Simon
Solomon (Cutner)[/b]
Wladyslaw Szpilman
Mark Taimanov
Carl Tausig[/b]
Sigmund Thalberg[/b]
Rosalyn Tureck[/b]
Isabella Vengerova
Alexis Weissenberg[/b]
Paul Wittgenstein[/b]
Maria Yudina

http://www.jinfo.org/Pianists.html
_________________________
Sam

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#499823 - 10/20/05 08:46 PM Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays.
Siddhartha Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/08/04
Posts: 1244
Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
Geezus H Kryst!! (er..sorry), are there ANY pianists that arent jewish?!?!
_________________________
I was born the year Glenn Gould stop playing concerts. Coincidence?

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#499824 - 10/20/05 08:50 PM Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays.
pianojerome Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 9868
Oh, of course. ;\)

Sviatoslav Richter
Arturo Benedetti Michelangeli
Glenn Gould
Earl Wild
Georges Cziffra
Claudio Arrau
...


But yes, there are lots of Jews in music (go to that website I posted for a list of conductors, violinists, cellists...). Quite remarkable, considering the relative tinyness of our population.
_________________________
Sam

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#499825 - 10/20/05 09:05 PM Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays.
-Frycek Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/06/05
Posts: 5921
Loc: SC Mountains
Wow Sam - you really did your homework!

 Quote:
Originally posted by Derulux:
A person is Jewish the same as they are Christian or Muslim (using the three most common).

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Eh... no, not really.

It's much more that that. (kind of hard to explain)
I think I know what you mean. I'm not Jewish but I remember a conversation I had with a Jewish friend years ago. We were talking about the Messiah, and he said something along the lines of "maybe Jesus was and we missed the boat." I asked him if he thought that why didn't he convert. He said, "Because I'm Jewish."[/b] It was the way he said it, like it was something totally immutable, more than a belief or an identify, more like the very life and substance of his flesh and bones.
_________________________
Slow down and do it right.

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#499826 - 10/20/05 09:13 PM Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays.
Derulux Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/06/05
Posts: 5444
Loc: Philadelphia
 Quote:
Eh... no, not really.

It's much more that that. (kind of hard to explain)
Actually, the "it's more than that" idea is far more recent than most people would think. And I bet, with some insight and a bit of 20th century historical knowledge, just about anyone can figure out where the change came from.

In fact, ever since the ancient kingdom of Judah was no more, the terms "Jewish" referring to an inhabitant/descendant of Judah, and "Jewish" referring to followers of the religion, have been confused. It was furthered in the Old Testament, and now is also compounded with the wonderful trouble of being Hebrew. Somewhere, "Jew" and "Hebrew" became one and the same. The latter is a person belonging to the worldwide group claiming descent from Jacob. The former are converts, which is a religious implication, and not a genetically-traceable nationality/ethnicity. Yet still, these people claim it for whatever personal reasons...to "belong to the group" most-likely.

Now, there is great confusion as to who is a Jew, who is Hebrew, and who is an Israelite, and they have all, sadly, become one and the same. But the DO NOT share the same exact lineage. This wonderful collage of peoples lumped together into one mosaic occured during the Captivity and Restoration.

More recently, all of this history was lost because of the events of World War II, and now anybody who ever visited a brother of a sister of an uncle who lived within 300 miles of Israel, Germany, or the land between can and will often claim Jewish descent.

But there is STILL a distinction between the religious practice and being descended from those original peoples from Judah. This is why, when someone tells me they're "Jewish", I often will ask if they mean their religion or their descent. Because there is such thing as a Catholic Jew (where Jew is ancestrally used), the same as there is a Russian Jew (where Jew is primarily religiously used). Of course, there's also the Russian Catholic Jew (which, of course, ignores the schism in the church, but more importantly, where Russian and Jew claim ancestry and Catholic describes the religion).

So, yes, it is fairly complicated thanks to modern (and not-so-modern) history, but in its pure form, it is as I described. ;\)
_________________________
Every day we are afforded a new chance. The problem with life is not that you run out of chances. In the end, what you run out of are days.

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#499827 - 10/20/05 09:21 PM Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays.
pianojerome Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 9868
Derulux, when most people talk about "Jews" they aren't talking about Christians who descend from Judah. ;\)


When someone talks about "Jewish pianists", for example - you know what they mean by "Jewish."

But defining what it means to be Jewish - in the sense of the Jewish people (not just anybody who happens to descend from Judah) is very complicated - you're right. It's not just a religion. It's a people. A nation. A culture. A Jew who leads his life strictly according to the Torah is just as "Jewish" as a Jew who does not practice at all. A Jew from China is just as Jewish as a Jew from the United States. A black Jew is just as Jewish as a white Jew. A person who converts to Judaism is just as "Jewish" as a Jew who is a direct descendent of the Temple Priests.

It's an identity. It's a people. Well, there aren't really such good words to describe it. But it's definately more than just a religion.
_________________________
Sam

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#499828 - 10/20/05 09:33 PM Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays.
Derulux Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/06/05
Posts: 5444
Loc: Philadelphia
I'll concede that, basically, we're saying the same thing...except for the phrase 'a nation'. If you could point to the Jewish 'nation' on a map, I'd quit playing the piano for life. (Unless you pulled out a map that had Judah on it, and pointed to that. :p ) Nation, as used in describing someone's nationality, is not applicable in the sense of the Jewish community, because they have not had a nation since Judah. The closest thing they have is Israel, but then, those people are Israeli by nationality (not to be confused with Israelites).

This is why it is entirely possible to be a Russian Jew (and not simply Jewish). A person who lives in Russia is Russian by nationality. They might be African by ethnicity. And they can still be Jewish by religion--which unfortunately lumps them in the Jew community, in that the certain assumptions society makes based on the words "Jew" or "Jewish" are entirely inaccurate.

That's why I make the distinction when I'm talking to someone...and half the time, the person I'm talking to doesn't even know the answer. I say "Judah" and people stare at me like I said, "Aliens landed in my back yard."

The term has been grossly misused throughout history, and, unfortunately, even though it's popular, societal uses are generally incorrect. ;\)
_________________________
Every day we are afforded a new chance. The problem with life is not that you run out of chances. In the end, what you run out of are days.

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#499829 - 10/20/05 09:40 PM Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays.
pianojerome Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 9868
Yes, it is definately possible to be a Russian Jew, or an American Jew, etc.

When Judaism is referred to as a "nation", it's not exactly like Canada or Israel or Poland...

It's because it's so hard to explain what Judaism is that we use all of these words like "nation", "people", "culture", "tradition", "identity", "religion", etc. But none of those words are perfect descriptors, and they don't always mean what you think they might mean.

Even "religion" isn't a perfect descriptor, because a Jew who lives his life "according to the Torah" is just as Jewish as a Jew who doesn't practice.

"Culture" and "Tradition" aren't quite perfect, because Chinese Jews have a different culture than Ethiopian Jews.

"Nation" isn't quite perfect, because most people tend to think of 'nation' as a geographic location, and this Judaism is not. It's a nation in the sense of being a people, and being born into the religion... for example, you are American if you are born in America, regardless of how you view yourself and America. If you don't want to be American, you can emigrate... you are still technically American, as you were born in America, but you can emigrate and "leave" the American nation. If you are not born in America, you are not American, regardless of how "American" you might seem. If you immigrate to the U.S., though, then you are an American. It's kind of the same way with Judaism, thought not exactly identical. It's not a perfect descriptor, but it does in part help explain what it means to be Jewish. But Judaism is so complex - it's hard to come up with a list of words that perfectly explain it.
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#499830 - 10/20/05 09:45 PM Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays.
pianojerome Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 9868
 Quote:
Originally posted by Derulux:
That's why I make the distinction when I'm talking to someone...and half the time, the person I'm talking to doesn't even know the answer. I say "Judah" and people stare at me like I said, "Aliens landed in my back yard."

The term has been grossly misused throughout history, and, unfortunately, even though it's popular, societal uses are generally incorrect. ;\) [/b]
No, you[/b] use it incorrectly. ;\)

You're using an archaic term. Today, the Jews are members of Judaism - of the "Jewish" people. Not just any descendent of Judah.

You're right - the term has changed over time. It has changed... (or rather, one definition - that of Judaism as a people - has remained and evolved, and the other definition - any descendent of Judah - has become archaic) and that's a great reason why most people you talk with don't know what you're talking about when you ask what they mean by "Jew." You know what they mean by "Jew" (well, not entirely I suppose - but you know what they are referring to), and to ask them if they are just a "descendent of Judah" is simply showing off your historical knowledge of the evolution of the word "Jew."
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Sam

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#499831 - 10/20/05 11:17 PM Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays.
IrateHamster Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/25/05
Posts: 32
Loc: Baltimore, MD
Well, to answer the OP's call for actual empirical responses for his personal study: I'm bisexual, leaning towards gay. It's impossible to tell my orientation from the way I look or act (except, of course, for the fact that I play the piano ;\) ).

Btw, all the posts that begin "I'm not gay" remind me of the Seinfeld quote: "Not that there's anything wrong with that!"
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"It's so easy when you knows how!" - Fats Waller

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