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#499832 - 10/21/05 12:46 AM Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays.
Derulux Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/06/05
Posts: 5067
Loc: Philadelphia
 Quote:
You know what they mean by "Jew" (well, not entirely I suppose - but you know what they are referring to), and to ask them if they are just a "descendent of Judah" is simply showing off your historical knowledge of the evolution of the word "Jew."
No, you see...that's precisely it. It is because I know the many referrals of "Jew" that I ask the question. It is not "showing off" as you put it, but rather, a desire to know exactly what a person means when they say "Jew", because, by and large, it is an abused word.

I equate it to verbalization. Over time, incorrect use has become accepted use, and accepted use has become correct use, but in formal diction, even that is unacceptable. So many former nouns in the English language have become verbs that their governance has grown slack because the uninformed majority cannot fathom the proper use of a word. So it goes with "Jew", so rather than assume someone purely means religious connotation, or purely means ancestral descent, or purely means culturally, or any combination thereof, I take it upon myself to ask precisely because I do not like to infer.
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#499833 - 10/21/05 12:52 AM Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays.
piqué Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/15/01
Posts: 5483
 Quote:
Originally posted by John Citron:
 Quote:
Originally posted by piqué:
my family is jewish and from russia. my grandfather emigrated to the u.s. long before WWI, let alone WWII. there have been jews in russia for a very long time, as there have been everywhere.

there are lots of russian jewish musicians, music is a very big part of jewish culture. "ashkenazy" actually means "eastern european jew" which includes russia. my own family are ashkenazy. [/b]
I have a similar background on my dad's side. His grandmother came from the Ukraine in 1898 and his grandfather came from Russia in 1901. The rest of the Kooperstocks and Citrons came over between 1912 and 1917, although there may have been others that didn't migrate. The ones that did make it over, settled in Saugus, MA, New York, and New Jersey.

We've been able to trace the family back to villages in Poland, Ukraine, Belarussia, and Russia.

His mother's family, the Kelners, Israels, and Desners came over in the 1850's and 1860's from Russia, and settled in Brooklyn. My great great uncle was a land developer that made a lot of money when the bridge was opened up.

From what I found out, many of the Kooperstocks were musicians, and there's a possibility I am related to Andrew Kooperstock the concert pianist.

John [/b]
john,
our families came to america as part of the same migratory wave, and our grandparents could have been born in the same shtetl in europe. my paternal side settled in milwaukee (golda meir went to school with my grandmother) and the maternal side in brooklyn (they were from budapest, actually).

it would be interesting to see what proportion of the world's great musicians come from this small pool of eastern european jewish stock. there are many professional musicians in my family, and most of their musician friends were also from this part of the world.
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piqué

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#499834 - 10/21/05 12:53 AM Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays.
piqué Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/15/01
Posts: 5483
oh, yeah, and some of them were gay! (horowitz definitley was.)
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piqué

now in paperback:


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#499835 - 10/21/05 04:21 PM Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays.
pianodevo Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/29/02
Posts: 836
Why are so many great pianists Jewish? And the same for other instrumentalists? I also point out that a large preponderance of the top chessplayers throughout history have been Jewish.

I'll take a stab at the reason: scattered about in the diaspora over aeons of time, and often persecuted without reason, the Jews emphasized education and the arts as coping and survival mechanisms.

Even in the present day, when survival may not be threatened nearly as much as before, the custom of emphasis on education and the arts continues to percolate throughout Jewish families.

I'd never claim anything innately superior for the Jewish people (and I'm Jewish) -- that would simply be blatant racism, without any foundation at all.
_________________________
pianodevo

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#499836 - 10/21/05 04:28 PM Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays.
pianojerome Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 9868
Yes, I think it might have had a little to do with "coping and survival mechanisms" in the shtetles, though we fortunately aren't having to fight as much today for our survival. But I'm not sure that's really one of the big reasons.


I do strongly agree with you that there is nothing innately superior about being Jewish. We're the "Chosen People", because God chose to give us his commandments... (there's actually a story that God had "chosen" other people for the commandments before, but they all didn't want them... so by the time he got around to asking the Israelites, he was so frustrated, that he just threatened to kill them by dropping a mountain on top of them if they didn't accept the commandments... :p ) but Jews certainly aren't "better" than others, just because we're Jews.


It's an interesting question, for a population so relatively small (last time I checked, 0.25% of the world population and 2% of the U.S. population), why we are so well represented in the arts, literature, science (look at Nobel Prize winners...), politics, etc.
_________________________
Sam

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#499837 - 10/21/05 05:25 PM Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays.
Derulux Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/06/05
Posts: 5067
Loc: Philadelphia
Well, the initial answer isn't so difficult as you might imagine. You've heard of the derogatory terms, "Being Jewed", etc? Well, they all stem from the Middle Ages, from Jews' supposedly extortionate practices as moneylenders.

Of course, it wasn't until the 19th century that a the "Jewish Disability" was lifted and a Jew was allowed to serve in British Parliament.

But that aside, noting the fact that Jews were moneylenders says one thing: they had money. And cash flow turns the world. Money, during those times, led to education, and education to art. It's no coincidence the best artists were also among the most educated. Later, as more people became educated, more artists emerged, and money became less of a factor. Still, most artists lived in some form of at least a middle-class existence, and many of the greats in some form of esteem or luxury.

With history comes heritage, and the trend continued to be passed down through the generations.

Now, how Jews came to be moneylenders is a different story...especially in countries dominated by other ethnicities and nationalities and religions. And that is probably a trickier question. ;\)
_________________________
Every day we are afforded a new chance. The problem with life is not that you run out of chances. In the end, what you run out of are days.

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#499838 - 10/21/05 06:03 PM Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays.
pianojerome Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 9868
 Quote:
Originally posted by Derulux:
Now, how Jews came to be moneylenders is a different story...especially in countries dominated by other ethnicities and nationalities and religions. And that is probably a trickier question. ;\) [/b]
That's exactly the question I was thinking while reading your post. ;\)
_________________________
Sam

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#499839 - 10/21/05 06:07 PM Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays.
Theodore Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 06/24/05
Posts: 335
Loc: San Antonio, Texas
This thread has me scared and afraid!!! After all the discussions, trying to focus on the title and comments, I think I may have it worked out.

The part about being a gay pianist must be linked somehow to the circumcision process, is that a safe assupmtion? Or is it that all uncircumsized men that play the piano are straight, but not very attractive, unkind, uneducated and hate the arts?

Bi-sexual piano players would then have to be sort of educated, quasi-good looking, but not very educated.

Transexuals, do they play piano or not? I guess it depends upon whether they eat pork and shellfish. Someone help me understand this thread...
_________________________
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Alamo Music Center
San Antonio,Texas

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#499840 - 10/21/05 06:13 PM Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays.
Schumann Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/06/05
Posts: 84
Loc: Bloomington, IN
 Quote:
Originally posted by pianojerome:
It's an interesting question, for a population so relatively small (last time I checked, 0.25% of the world population and 2% of the U.S. population), why we are so well represented in the arts, literature, science (look at Nobel Prize winners...), politics, etc. [/b]
Did you happen to see this article , Sam? Made the news a couple of months back, but I haven't seen anything on it recently.

 Quote:
Ashkenazim generally do well in IQ tests, scoring 12-15 points above the mean value of 100, and have contributed disproportionately to the intellectual and cultural life of the West, as the careers of Freud, Einstein and Mahler, pictured above, affirm. They also suffer more often than most people from a number of nasty genetic diseases, such as Tay-Sachs and breast cancer. These facts, however, have previously been thought unrelated. The former has been put down to social effects, such as a strong tradition of valuing education. The latter was seen as a consequence of genetic isolation. Even now, Ashkenazim tend to marry among themselves. In the past they did so almost exclusively.

Dr Cochran, however, suspects that the intelligence and the diseases are intimately linked. His argument is that the unusual history of the Ashkenazim has subjected them to unique evolutionary pressures that have resulted in this paradoxical state of affairs.

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#499841 - 10/21/05 06:14 PM Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays.
pianojerome Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 9868
Theodore... huh?

What is the link between circumcision and being gay?


Jewish males are circumcised, but that doesn't make us gay. If it did, we'd be in a lot of trouble in terms of marriage and making babies!!!

Not all gay people are circumcised, and I'm not sure how circumcision would make someone gay.
_________________________
Sam

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#499842 - 10/21/05 06:17 PM Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays.
pianojerome Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 9868
-----
_________________________
Sam

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#499843 - 10/21/05 06:19 PM Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays.
John Citron Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/15/05
Posts: 3925
Loc: Haverhill, Massachusetts
 Quote:
Originally posted by pianojerome:
"...I do strongly agree with you that there is nothing innately superior about being Jewish. We're the "Chosen People", because God chose to give us his commandments... (there's actually a story that God had "chosen" other people for the commandments before, but they all didn't want them... so by the time he got around to asking the Israelites, he was so frustrated, that he just threatened to kill them by dropping a mountain on top of them if they didn't accept the commandments... :p ) but Jews certainly aren't "better" than others, just because we're Jews..."
[/b]
I wish some of my cousins saw things this way. They act like because they are Jewish, they are the best.

Remember... We are who we are, and we should respect every one else for whom they are. Music is a universal and international langauge that breaks through all walks of life, sexual preferences, ethnic groups, and religious beliefs.

John
_________________________
Nothing.

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#499844 - 10/21/05 06:41 PM Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays.
kathyk Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/19/03
Posts: 6971
Loc: Maine
 Quote:
Originally posted by pianojerome:
Oh, of course. ;\)

Sviatoslav Richter
Arturo Benedetti Michelangeli
Glenn Gould
Earl Wild
Georges Cziffra
Claudio Arrau
...


[/b]
You sure about that? Gould and Richter sound suspect to me. Maybe not Ricther - that's very Germanic (although there's a lot of cross over there), but Gould . . .?

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#499845 - 10/21/05 07:42 PM Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays.
-Frycek Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/06/05
Posts: 5921
Loc: SC Mountains
 Quote:
Originally posted by pianojerome:
 Quote:
Originally posted by Derulux:
Now, how Jews came to be moneylenders is a different story...especially in countries dominated by other ethnicities and nationalities and religions. And that is probably a trickier question. ;\) [/b]
That's exactly the question I was thinking while reading your post. ;\) [/b]
Jews became moneylenders in the Catholic countries because their beliefs allowed them to lend money for interest. The Roman Catholic church considered all lending at interest "usury" (a term now reserved for Mafia loan sharks and the like.) The Christians couldn't charge interest and remain in good with the Church, so why bother? Since everybody, particularly the nobles, needed to borrow money, they were very glad to have someone to lend them it, interest and all. The Jewish people became famous as moneylenders to the nobility (and everyone else.) Like any other moneylenders some were exorbitant, some were reasonable. Unfortunately the exorbitant ones made more of a dent in the social consciousness. Hence Shakespeare's Shylock. On the other hand there is a very sympathetic Jewish money lender in Dicken's "Our Mutual Friend." As a side note, I've heard some speculation that Christopher Columbus was Jewish and that his financial connections helped get his voyage of exploration off the ground as much as Isabella's jewels.
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#499846 - 10/21/05 09:19 PM Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays.
pianojerome Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 9868
 Quote:
Originally posted by kathyk:
 Quote:
Originally posted by pianojerome:
Oh, of course. ;\)

Sviatoslav Richter
Arturo Benedetti Michelangeli
Glenn Gould
Earl Wild
Georges Cziffra
Claudio Arrau
...


[/b]
You sure about that? Gould and Richter sound suspect to me. Maybe not Ricther - that's very Germanic (although there's a lot of cross over there), but Gould . . .? [/b]
Siddhartha asked sarcastically if there were any pianists who weren't Jewish. So I started to list these guys who weren't Jewish.
_________________________
Sam

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#499847 - 10/22/05 10:30 AM Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays.
littlePianoGirl Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/21/05
Posts: 37
i think the reason why people think that male pianists are gay is because they look feminine when playing piano and getting really into the music (or in my opinion they do)
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I love playing scales!

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#499848 - 10/22/05 10:58 AM Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays.
Max W Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/05/02
Posts: 2846
Loc: RHUL
But then there are just as many 'masculine' appearing pianists (Volodos)

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#499849 - 10/22/05 11:19 AM Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays.
Brendan Offline



Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 5228
Loc: McAllen, TX
 Quote:
Originally posted by kathyk:
 Quote:
Originally posted by pianojerome:
Oh, of course. ;\)

Sviatoslav Richter
Arturo Benedetti Michelangeli
Glenn Gould
Earl Wild
Georges Cziffra
Claudio Arrau
...


[/b]
You sure about that? Gould and Richter sound suspect to me. Maybe not Ricther - that's very Germanic (although there's a lot of cross over there), but Gould . . .? [/b]
Richter was definitely gay (or bisexual), but Gould's sexuality has always been in question. I believe that he was asexual, if anything.
_________________________
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#499850 - 10/22/05 11:45 AM Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays.
littlePianoGirl Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/21/05
Posts: 37
 Quote:
Originally posted by Max W:
But then there are just as many 'masculine' appearing pianists (Volodos) [/b]
true but whenever i see a masculine or muscular guy playing piano for some reason they make it look like playing piano is really hard and "rigid" instead of more graceful and passionate looking and sounding. i dunno maybe its just me. lol
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I love playing scales!

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#499851 - 10/22/05 11:56 AM Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays.
piqué Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/15/01
Posts: 5483
fascinating article in the economist. thanks for posting it. i've sent it to several members of my family. we have both tay-sachs and breast cancer in the family.
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piqué

now in paperback:


Grand Obsession: A Piano Odyssey

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#499852 - 10/22/05 04:11 PM Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays.
Diarmuid2 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/24/02
Posts: 871
Loc: London
Gould was so far in the closet he was in Narnia.

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#499853 - 10/22/05 11:01 PM Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays.
kesterlucille Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 10/21/05
Posts: 2
Loc: st mary's
Ok, so if there is a connection between circumcision and being gay, how do women become lesbians??

Are we concluding in this discussion that lesbians are not musical? I think that's rather offensive to lesbians!

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#499854 - 10/22/05 11:06 PM Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays.
pianojerome Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 9868
 Quote:
Originally posted by kesterlucille:
Ok, so if there is a connection between circumcision and being gay, how do women become lesbians?? [/b]
I'm still confused about that first point.

All Jews are circumcised, so if circumcision really induced homsexuality, then the Jewish people would have ceased to exist a long time ago! (Homosexuals don't generally make babies...)


What is the rational behind penning such a strange connection?
_________________________
Sam

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#499855 - 10/22/05 11:54 PM Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays.
Palindrome Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/22/01
Posts: 3910
Loc: Chicago, IL USA
I dropped out of this thread on page 2, and now, returning on page 5, I find some very strange things.
_________________________
There is no end of learning. -Robert Schumann Rules for Young Musicians

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#499856 - 10/23/05 12:04 AM Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays.
-Frycek Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/06/05
Posts: 5921
Loc: SC Mountains
 Quote:
Originally posted by Palindrome:
I dropped out of this thread on page 2, and now, returning on page 5, I find some very strange things. [/b]
It's HAS turned into a bit of a fugue hasn't it.
_________________________
Slow down and do it right.

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#499857 - 10/23/05 02:29 PM Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays.
John Citron Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/15/05
Posts: 3925
Loc: Haverhill, Massachusetts
 Quote:
Originally posted by Frycek:
 Quote:
Originally posted by Palindrome:
I dropped out of this thread on page 2, and now, returning on page 5, I find some very strange things. [/b]
It's HAS turned into a bit of a fugue hasn't it. [/b]
The second subject has entered with a counter-subject has moved the the bass.

John
_________________________
Nothing.

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#499858 - 10/27/05 10:27 AM Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays.
lemoncoke Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/24/03
Posts: 59
Loc: hongkong
http://www.league-ncr.com/library/history/heritage2.html

I found this link accidentally.........but I still can't believe Chopin is gay.....

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#499859 - 10/27/05 11:39 AM Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays.
Siddhartha Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/08/04
Posts: 1244
Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
 Quote:
Originally posted by pianojerome:
 Quote:
Originally posted by kesterlucille:
Ok, so if there is a connection between circumcision and being gay, how do women become lesbians?? [/b]
I'm still confused about that first point.

All Jews are circumcised, so if circumcision really induced homsexuality, then the Jewish people would have ceased to exist a long time ago! (Homosexuals don't generally make babies...)


What is the rational behind penning such a strange connection? [/b]
I cant find the original post making this claim. Best I can see is its a warping of someone's sarcastic jokes hear and misinterpretation of them. If anyone really is suggesting this, its ludicrous. The majority of American males are circumsized. I think it was just a joke.
_________________________
I was born the year Glenn Gould stop playing concerts. Coincidence?

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#499860 - 10/27/05 12:18 PM Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays.
pianistcomposer Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/12/05
Posts: 312
Loc: Baltimore, MD, USA
 Quote:
Originally posted by lemoncoke:
http://www.league-ncr.com/library/history/heritage2.html

I found this link accidentally.........but I still can't believe Chopin is gay..... [/b]
This is a good link, but it's outdated; Corigliano won the Academy Award around five years ago for The Red Violin, and Lou Harrison has died, I think...
_________________________
"Some people have a way with words; others... ... ... ...not...have way, I guess."
- Steve Martin
http://www.reverbnation.com/michaelsheppard
http://www.youtube.com/user/realpianistcomposer

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#499861 - 10/27/05 10:06 PM Re: It is said that musicians, specially pianists, who are male are suspected to be gays.
MMSGA Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/21/04
Posts: 393
 Quote:
Originally posted by kesterlucille:
Ok, so if there is a connection between circumcision and being gay, how do women become lesbians??

Are we concluding in this discussion that lesbians are not musical? I think that's rather offensive to lesbians! [/b]
Female circumcision, by logical extension. I'll ask my sister. She's so butch she makes John Wayne look positively flaming \:\)

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