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#503165 - 02/01/08 07:29 AM Re: Would you prefer to be engaged to .. a pianist?
Janus K. Sachs Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/31/07
Posts: 1710
Loc: Betelgeuse, baby!
Moi again. It has been said before in this thread, but still, my self the composer actually somewhat misses having a significant other who is also a performer. I mean, if I had a pianist significant other who appreciated my music, I could just write tons of piano music (which I really want to do regardless) and have a ready made champion!

In terms of a composer-performer partnership, the Schumanns started out well enough I suppose. But Robert's retreat into his own subjective world ruined it, alas. From what I know, the Messiaens had a good, fruitful, and long composer-performer partnership (which overlapped with Olivier's first marriage, ahem, though that's a complicated story).

One other thing -- it is too easy to assume that common interests/common temperaments make for an ideal relationship (the second self theory). That is only partly true. Too many similarities can bring about massive problems. There is also the "opposites attract" dynamic which also works -- yes, I've been there too. I think the "complement" dynamic is the most rewarding -- having enough things in common to be relatable, but also having differences, as well as differing "strengths" and "weaknesses" (to use the terms relatively) that one complements (or "completes," to use the more conventionally romantic term) the other.

Man, I think I am taking this issue way too seriously. Isn't this supposed to be a lighthearted thread? \:\)

P.S.: To any other cranks like me: maybe Brahms's Piano Trio No. 3 in C minor befits you too? A cranky product of a (relatively) cranky age.

P.P.S.: Here's a nice little quote (from what I don't remember): "Have I considered divorce? Never. Murder? Often." \:D
_________________________
Die Krebs gehn zurücke,
Die Stockfisch bleiben dicke,
Die Karpfen viel fressen,
Die Predigt vergessen.

Die Predigt hat g'fallen.
Sie bleiben wie alle.

Top
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#503166 - 02/02/08 02:47 AM Re: Would you prefer to be engaged to .. a pianist?
faucon Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/13/07
Posts: 285
Loc: Missouri USA
 Quote:
Originally posted by Reaper978:
On that note, real artists tend to be people utterly alone with their craft, and have little room for outside relationships. [/b]
That may often be true of the most intense performers. Thankfully dedication and love aren't mutually exclusive. I'm thinking for example of Emanuel Ax, who frequently performs duets with his wife, the pianist Yoko Nozaki.

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#503167 - 02/02/08 08:26 AM Re: Would you prefer to be engaged to .. a pianist?
Bob Newbie Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/02/06
Posts: 1549
Go for very long engagements...see if your "intended"
attempts to draw you away from your "hobby" if so
then they ain't the person for you!
a few have tried..thats why I'm still single \:\)

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#503168 - 02/02/08 03:04 PM Re: Would you prefer to be engaged to .. a pianist?
Antonius Hamus Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/24/05
Posts: 2230
Such individualism... A very Western phenomenon.

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#503169 - 02/02/08 03:34 PM Re: Would you prefer to be engaged to .. a pianist?
Reaper978 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/08/05
Posts: 1326
 Quote:
Originally posted by Antonius Hamus:
Such individualism... A very Western phenomenon. [/b]
That's a fairly... interesting comment. As far as I know, the Eastern philosophies center around emptiness, isolation, and meditation, hardly a "married with two kids, cute house, and an SUV" attitude.

-Colin

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#503170 - 02/02/08 03:59 PM Re: Would you prefer to be engaged to .. a pianist?
Antonius Hamus Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/24/05
Posts: 2230
The Eastern philosophies you probably refer to are quite rarefied, and their mundane manifestations as some sort religions haven't really affected the social structures prevalent in the East, which have been based on extended families and a strong sense of ethnic interests. Rather, they were adopted to suit these already existing social structures and intuitions (and I do mean intuitions, not institutions). You can see this in the way marriage practices differ in the East from what they have long since been here in the West. In the East, marriage is used as a strategic tool in a manner similar to that when kings marry (or used to) their daughters & sons to potential allies/enemies. All of this has of course changed somewhat with the modernization of the Eastern countries. The West, however, was relatively individualistic already before the Industrial Revolution, especially its northern regions, such as Germany, Scandinavia, etc.

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#503171 - 02/03/08 11:45 PM Re: Would you prefer to be engaged to .. a pianist?
Larisa Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/03/08
Posts: 498
Loc: Philadelphia
I'm perfectly happy with my SO, who is not a pianist, but who comes with me to all sorts of piano-intensive music festivals, merely because I am performing there. I really lucked out. \:\)

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#503172 - 02/04/08 12:21 AM Re: Would you prefer to be engaged to .. a pianist?
computerpro3 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/12/04
Posts: 367
Loc: Connecticut/Cincinnati
Believe it or not the biggest thing I struggle with going to conservatory and attempting to be a pianist is not the difficulty of it, or the overwhelming odds, or whether I am good enough....

The scary part is knowing that I CAN do it but that if I do, I honestly do not believe getting married will be possible.

This is sort of something I have always felt, and no matter how much I wish it wasn't so, I keep finding more and more evidence to back this up.

I'm not saying it is impossible to be a "successful" pianist and get married. There are two successful and rather famous teachers in my school who are married to each other.

What I'm saying is that I agree with Colin's assertion that the greatest artists are utterly alone with their craft. My teacher gave me an absolutely incredible book to read - the Spiritual Development of Beethoven. When I was reading it I got quite emotional because I had so many of the same thoughts. Beethoven very much didn't want to be alone, but it was his very alone-ness that helped form who he was and which made his music so powerful. I would go so far as to say that some of his music simply could not be written by a satisfied, untroubled man.

I look at Beethoven and I look at my teacher, who is absolutely one of the most intense (almost disturbingly so, but in a good way) performers out there right now. What makes listening to them so special is that you are getting an intimate glimpse of an utterly prodigous and immensely powerful personality that is normally alone. They are a very special breed of people and altogether unique.

Here at school, it is rather special for me, because for the first time there are a select few that understand. I can walk out of the practice room at 3:00AM and count on a small group of certain special people still being there too; still being utterly alone, taking comfort in music. Friday night, weekends, weekdays, it doesn't matter. Why? Becuase they need it. You can't exactly walk up to a random acquaintance or superficial friend and start talking about the mysteries of life and the joys and sorrows of living; they will look at you like you are crazy. So you are left with no other option but to explore them yourself - and what better way than through Bach and Mozart and Brahms and Beethoven?

What strikes me the most though, is that these people are the ones that long the most for communication. They are all incredible people, fascinating people - by far the most interesting to converse with. Once again, this is what sets them apart from an average pianist.

The bottom line is that if you develop your artistry to a level that is truly sublime, you can't help but develop yourself as well.

Once you've reached that point - that point which is special expressely because so few reach it - what are the odds of finding a "soulmate" that is capable of understanding you? Putting hundreds of thousands of hours into understanding the emotional and communicative aspects of music is LITERALLY putting hundreds of thousands of hours into understand humanity and yourself, and how many people actually do that? Hardly any! The odds are beyond ridiculous of finding someone who can understand a person like that at a fundamental level, which is what they wish for the most.

The sad thing is that even if I were to just give up an intensive study of piano and get married, I wouldn't be completely happy either, as something would still be missing. It is the proverbial "stuck between a rock and a hard place", and I am not sure which (if either), will bring me greater happniess in the end

Honestly, both marriage and being a pianist are vocations, pure and simple. I'm just not sure to which I'm called yet.

So to your answer, I would LOVE to be engaged to a pianist - one as dedicated as myself, as perhaps that's the only chance I have!

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#503173 - 02/04/08 12:26 AM Re: Would you prefer to be engaged to .. a pianist?
argerichfan Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/15/06
Posts: 8887
Loc: Pacific Northwest, US.
Since uni -and all its attendant dodgy memories- is past history for me, I tend to connect more at the London clubs these days. What else is a young single to do?

But I met a cool bloke the other day who is a baritone with the choir at Westminster Abbey... very interesting conversation. Yet I also met a pianist several weeks ago, but after mention of Moonlight Sonata and Liebesträume that seemed to be the cap on his knowledge.

Rather frustrating, I say. No wonder some of us find a certain companionship on this board.

I have a number of valuable friends, but none of them really understand why classical music means what it does to me. On the other hand, I find myself keeping up with pop culture just by osmosis.

And I wonder if I'm unique on this board for not even owning a tv. How's about that, Colin? And you owe me a PM anyway...
_________________________
Jason

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#503174 - 02/04/08 12:56 AM Re: Would you prefer to be engaged to .. a pianist?
Janus K. Sachs Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/31/07
Posts: 1710
Loc: Betelgeuse, baby!
Hey argerichfan, I don't own a TV either. And I'm not trying to ingratiate myself to you, I'm serious!
_________________________
Die Krebs gehn zurücke,
Die Stockfisch bleiben dicke,
Die Karpfen viel fressen,
Die Predigt vergessen.

Die Predigt hat g'fallen.
Sie bleiben wie alle.

Top
#503175 - 02/04/08 01:04 AM Re: Would you prefer to be engaged to .. a pianist?
computerpro3 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/12/04
Posts: 367
Loc: Connecticut/Cincinnati
 Quote:
Originally posted by argerichfan:
Since uni -and all its attendant dodgy memories- is past history for me, I tend to connect more at the London clubs these days. What else is a young single to do?

But I met a cool bloke the other day who is a baritone with the choir at Westminster Abbey... very interesting conversation. Yet I also met a pianist several weeks ago, but after mention of Moonlight Sonata and Liebesträume that seemed to be the cap on his knowledge.

Rather frustrating, I say. No wonder some of us find a certain companionship on this board.

I have a number of valuable friends, but none of them really understand why classical music means what it does to me. On the other hand, I find myself keeping up with pop culture just by osmosis.

And I wonder if I'm unique on this board for not even owning a tv. How's about that, Colin? And you owe me a PM anyway... [/b]
I don't own a TV. No point as I don't even have enough time in the day without another distraction. Chopin > Desperate Housewives.

Top
#503176 - 02/04/08 01:05 AM Re: Would you prefer to be engaged to .. a pianist?
argerichfan Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/15/06
Posts: 8887
Loc: Pacific Northwest, US.
 Quote:
Originally posted by Janus Sachs:
Hey argerichfan, I don't own a TV either. And I'm not trying to ingratiate myself to you, I'm serious!
Aw nuts, you took me off my pedestal... well hardly the first time!

Good on ya, Janus. And we get our news via BBC, Al Jazeera, and International Herald Tribune? Heck, when I want to watch a DVD, the computer will do just fine.
_________________________
Jason

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#503177 - 02/04/08 01:10 AM Re: Would you prefer to be engaged to .. a pianist?
argerichfan Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/15/06
Posts: 8887
Loc: Pacific Northwest, US.
 Quote:
Originally posted by computerpro3:
Chopin > Desperate Housewives.
But when I'm in the mood: Chopin < QAF.

Rather cryptic of me... :p
_________________________
Jason

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#503178 - 02/04/08 01:21 AM Re: Would you prefer to be engaged to .. a pianist?
computerpro3 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/12/04
Posts: 367
Loc: Connecticut/Cincinnati
 Quote:
Originally posted by argerichfan:
 Quote:
Originally posted by computerpro3:
Chopin > Desperate Housewives.
But when I'm in the mood: Chopin < QAF.

Rather cryptic of me... :p [/b]
There's a fair amount of scholars out there that think Chopin would greatly enjoy it!

There is no such thing as "cryptic" when Google exists...

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#503179 - 02/04/08 01:23 AM Re: Would you prefer to be engaged to .. a pianist?
Janus K. Sachs Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/31/07
Posts: 1710
Loc: Betelgeuse, baby!
 Quote:
Originally posted by argerichfan:
 Quote:
Originally posted by Janus Sachs:
Hey argerichfan, I don't own a TV either. And I'm not trying to ingratiate myself to you, I'm serious!
Aw nuts, you took me off my pedestal... well hardly the first time!

Good on ya, Janus. And we get our news via BBC, Al Jazeera, and International Herald Tribune? Heck, when I want to watch a DVD, the computer will do just fine. [/b]
Add the NY Times and Time Magazine websites as news sources for me, and yes, I have a particular fondness for the good ole BBC (having lived in London once). I don't know if this appeals to you, but this one-time America-dweller also has a fondness for another trustworthy news source: the Daily Show, which also has a website .

P.S.: I don't own any DVDs either. Gave them away when I moved... \:\(
_________________________
Die Krebs gehn zurücke,
Die Stockfisch bleiben dicke,
Die Karpfen viel fressen,
Die Predigt vergessen.

Die Predigt hat g'fallen.
Sie bleiben wie alle.

Top
#503180 - 02/04/08 01:33 AM Re: Would you prefer to be engaged to .. a pianist?
Janus K. Sachs Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/31/07
Posts: 1710
Loc: Betelgeuse, baby!
 Quote:
Originally posted by computerpro3:
 Quote:
Originally posted by argerichfan:
 Quote:
Originally posted by computerpro3:
Chopin > Desperate Housewives.
But when I'm in the mood: Chopin < QAF.

Rather cryptic of me... :p [/b]
There's a fair amount of scholars out there that think Chopin would greatly enjoy it!

There is no such thing as "cryptic" when Google exists... [/b]
Along with Schubert, Saint-Saens, and Ravel, amongst others...
_________________________
Die Krebs gehn zurücke,
Die Stockfisch bleiben dicke,
Die Karpfen viel fressen,
Die Predigt vergessen.

Die Predigt hat g'fallen.
Sie bleiben wie alle.

Top
#503181 - 02/04/08 02:39 AM Re: Would you prefer to be engaged to .. a pianist?
Antonius Hamus Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/24/05
Posts: 2230
 Quote:
Originally posted by computerpro3:

What I'm saying is that I agree with Colin's assertion that the greatest artists are utterly alone with their craft. My teacher gave me an absolutely incredible book to read - the Spiritual Development of Beethoven. When I was reading it I got quite emotional because I had so many of the same thoughts. Beethoven very much didn't want to be alone, but it was his very alone-ness that helped form who he was and which made his music so powerful. I would go so far as to say that some of his music simply could not be written by a satisfied, untroubled man.
[/b]
So you don't count Wagner and Bach as some of the greatest artists?

How about Horowitz? Who said you need to be untroubled if you have wife and kids?

And how about Beethoven and his nephew? I don't tend to trust Wikipedia, but since it for once happens to corroborate my delusional, know-next-to-nothing-about-anything-at-all views, here's a quote: "After Beethoven lost custody of his nephew, he went into a decline that led to his death..."

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#503182 - 02/04/08 07:24 AM Re: Would you prefer to be engaged to .. a pianist?
computerpro3 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/12/04
Posts: 367
Loc: Connecticut/Cincinnati
I think that they had other things to draw inspiration from. Some people don't. Music is a very personal thing and of course it is going to be different for everyone.

Beethoven's relationship with his nephew was bizzare and not quite healthy. It wasn't simply the uncle doting on the nephew from what I've read; more like an obsession stemming from some other problem.

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#503183 - 02/04/08 08:08 AM Re: Would you prefer to be engaged to .. a pianist?
Reaper978 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/08/05
Posts: 1326
Computerpro3,

I have high-functioning autism (Asperger's, see sig) which works to prevent me from fully connecting with people. This creates an unbelievable intensity to my music as I tend to feel alone whether in a group or with people. It is not a choice, it's just the way my brain works.

What you say about having interesting conversations and wanting to connect is absolutely true.

Top
#503184 - 02/04/08 10:34 AM Re: Would you prefer to be engaged to .. a pianist?
argerichfan Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/15/06
Posts: 8887
Loc: Pacific Northwest, US.
 Quote:
Originally posted by Reaper978:
I have high-functioning autism (Asperger's, see sig) which works to prevent me from fully connecting with people. This creates an unbelievable intensity to my music as I tend to feel alone whether in a group or with people. It is not a choice, it's just the way my brain works.
I've looked at the link in your sig so I at least have some idea what is going on. But I don't feel that you are entirely in this by yourself. Music has a very intense affect on me also (generally choral and organ over solo piano), and I also experience some of the problems you do.

I don't see it as a matter of choice or the way my brain works, it's just my environment. I can become emotionally overwhelmed at an Evensong or organ recital, yet am embarrassed because everyone else just seems to be sitting quietly. Perhaps their "overwhelming emotions" are bottled up.

But this is the killer: it's hard to find someone afterwards who wants to go out for a pint and discuss those musical experiences. That's where the sense of loneliness comes in.

I generally enjoy my job, but just try to relate with anyone there about classical music. I might as well be talking to a brick wall. It's all sports... and if it were not for the fact that I read BBC before going to work, I would not have known about the Super Bowl. And yes, earlier this morning, there was some talk about this amongst a few American football fans.

At least I wasn't totally out to lunch...
_________________________
Jason

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#503185 - 02/04/08 11:22 AM Re: Would you prefer to be engaged to .. a pianist?
Antonius Hamus Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/24/05
Posts: 2230
 Quote:
Originally posted by computerpro3:
I think that they had other things to draw inspiration from. Some people don't. Music is a very personal thing and of course it is going to be different for everyone.[/b]
Then I suppose you should be more careful about what sort of statements you pretend to agree with ("the greatest artists are utterly alone with their craft", assuming this implies no family---if it doesn't, then it's not really a relevant statement, is it? A bit empty, isn't it? Otherwise it's a false statement, as I demonstrated earlier).

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#503186 - 02/04/08 11:10 PM Re: Would you prefer to be engaged to .. a pianist?
Reaper978 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/08/05
Posts: 1326
Some people are alone regardless of who they are with, Antonius.

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#503187 - 02/05/08 12:27 AM Re: Would you prefer to be engaged to .. a pianist?
Janus K. Sachs Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/31/07
Posts: 1710
Loc: Betelgeuse, baby!
 Quote:
Originally posted by Reaper978:
Computerpro3,

I have high-functioning autism (Asperger's, see sig) which works to prevent me from fully connecting with people. This creates an unbelievable intensity to my music...[/b]
Wow, little Napoleon crowning himself Emperor, anyone?
_________________________
Die Krebs gehn zurücke,
Die Stockfisch bleiben dicke,
Die Karpfen viel fressen,
Die Predigt vergessen.

Die Predigt hat g'fallen.
Sie bleiben wie alle.

Top
#503188 - 02/05/08 01:40 AM Re: Would you prefer to be engaged to .. a pianist?
Ferdinand Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/23/07
Posts: 943
Loc: California
 Quote:
originally posted by Janus Sachs
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Reaper978:
Computerpro3,

I have high-functioning autism (Asperger's, see sig) which works to prevent me from fully connecting with people. This creates an unbelievable intensity to my music...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Wow, little Napoleon crowning himself Emperor, anyone?
Out of context the quote from Reaper978 does sound grandiose. However it can be read as "I experience my music with an intensity that others would scarcely believe." This reading raises questions of its own, but does not justify the accusation that it indicates delusions of grandeur.

Top
#503189 - 02/05/08 02:03 AM Re: Would you prefer to be engaged to .. a pianist?
Tenuto Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/09/07
Posts: 550
Loc: U.S.A.
I teach piano to autistic students and Aspergers. Janus Sachs and Antonius Hamus: how many experiences have you had with students and/ or individuals who suffer from these conditions? Do you think it is compassionate and wise to belittle or deride an individual who is trying to cope with these symptoms? I have seen first hand that these conditions are not the fault of the individual. They must work hard to learn to cope in this world. The least we can do is show some kindness. Is this not a more noble way to behave towards someone else's malody?

Top
#503190 - 02/05/08 04:03 AM Re: Would you prefer to be engaged to .. a pianist?
Antonius Hamus Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/24/05
Posts: 2230
I don't need to have experience with such students to know that their ability for logical thought isn't any worse than that of the general population. There's also a subtle but meaningful difference between deriding someone's statements and deriding that someone himself.

Reaper, please raise your hand if my lack of commiseration is driving you to suicide. I wouldn't want that to happen to you.

Top
#503191 - 02/05/08 04:43 AM Re: Would you prefer to be engaged to .. a pianist?
Ragnhild Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/22/06
Posts: 1117
Loc: Norway
Just me, suddenly thinking like a mother ;\) :

Please, be nice and go gently with eachother, life is not that easy and this topic is probably the most sensitive of all you could have chosen.

Computerpro3, I enjoyed your long post and found it full of true insight, you say :

 Quote:
Honestly, both marriage and being a pianist are vocations, pure and simple. I'm just not sure to which I'm called yet.[/b]
So true, but don't be sure you are not called for both ! They might both demand your full concentration for longer or shorter periods, but by choosing the right time (and the right girl ;\) ), I would think it's possible.

Colin, I've looked at the site in your link and found it very interesting. The milder forms of autism is very common and has its advantages when it comes to being passionate about things. I might be there myself, the more serious I know little about.

This forum is a great place for meeting passionate people, and again, please everybody, try to be nice.


Good luck to all of you with life, love and music !

R
_________________________
Trying to play the piano:
http://www.box.net/public/dbr23ll03e

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#503192 - 02/05/08 07:28 AM Re: Would you prefer to be engaged to .. a pianist?
Janus K. Sachs Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/31/07
Posts: 1710
Loc: Betelgeuse, baby!
 Quote:
Originally posted by Ferdinand:
 Quote:
originally posted by Janus Sachs
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Reaper978:
Computerpro3,

I have high-functioning autism (Asperger's, see sig) which works to prevent me from fully connecting with people. This creates an unbelievable intensity to my music...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Wow, little Napoleon crowning himself Emperor, anyone?
Out of context the quote from Reaper978 does sound grandiose. However it can be read as "I experience my music with an intensity that others would scarcely believe." This reading raises questions of its own, but does not justify the accusation that it indicates delusions of grandeur. [/b]
Alright, if we take your interpretation, it then becomes somewhat ironic that Reaper continuously blows a tantrum because the world doesn't love music as much as he does in a forum where many are at least as dedicated, if not more so, to music than he is. It doesn't take Asperger's to live a life dedicated to music, or to love it with blinding intensity . Neither does Asperger's give Reaper the right to think that he alone experiences music as intensely as he does, or that such a love of music that is unknownable to most people creates within him a sense of alienation that he alone feels (see argerichfan's post). Doesn't sound too far from "delusions of grandeur" (your words, not mine) to me.

Given your interpretation, and my own many years of humbly serving the muses (more years than Reaper's age, I'll say that much), I could choose to be insulted by Reaper's implied assertion that he alone (partly or wholly because of his Asperger's) is able to love music so greatly and experience it with such intensity, and that as a result he alone suffers from such a great sense of alientaion. But you know what, I just smile and go on \:\) , because life is far too short. Frei aber Froh.

Believe me, I for one will be overjoyed once Reaper steps out of his many vicious circles (some of which he creates himself) so that he can achieve his potential. But I think I can wait...
_________________________
Die Krebs gehn zurücke,
Die Stockfisch bleiben dicke,
Die Karpfen viel fressen,
Die Predigt vergessen.

Die Predigt hat g'fallen.
Sie bleiben wie alle.

Top
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Chrono Trigger piano medley
by Stefo
Today at 04:44 PM
need help with deciding between digital and acoustic
by luvboise713
Today at 04:16 PM
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