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#508148 - 08/17/07 08:40 AM if anyone knows chopin op 10 no 4, help (UPDATE, QUESTION
lonewolf604 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/08/07
Posts: 53
Loc: Vancouver BC
i have a very simple and general question, how long did it take you? i've never tackled any chopin etudes before, this is my first
plus i only consider myself an average piano player i quick my piano at grade 9

and another thing, does having a piano with heavy action make it bad for learning fast pieces

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#508149 - 08/17/07 02:33 PM Re: if anyone knows chopin op 10 no 4, help (UPDATE, QUESTION
BruceD Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 17670
Loc: Victoria, BC
lonewolf604:

Questions such as "How long did it take you...?" or "How long will it take me...?" are almost impossible to answer. How long it took one person to learn a piece is absolutely no indication of how long it will take another to get to the same stage of a work.

How long did it take to get to what stage of the work: a passable performance with all the notes in place or a professional performance with polish, style and flair? When one person considers a work "performance ready" another may disagree and feel that much more work has to be done.

There are some very difficult spots in this Etude, making it one of the more difficult ones; there are many other that one could take on as a "first" Chopin Etude: Op 10, No 3; Op 10, No 5; Op 10, No 6; Op 10, No 12; Op 25, No 1; Op 25, No 7, for example.

What other works have you studied? What have you played that you considered a polished performance? These are things to consider before deciding whether or not to study the Op 10, No 4. Do you have a teacher? What does s/he suggest?

Regards,
_________________________
BruceD
- - - - -
Estonia 190 in satin ebony
Writing from Paris until 15 May, 2014

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#508150 - 08/17/07 03:32 PM Re: if anyone knows chopin op 10 no 4, help (UPDATE, QUESTION
hopinmad Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/07
Posts: 1001
Loc: Eryri/Manchester
this one may be a little tricky fora first chopin etude . . .

BruceD. op10.no.5, that's black keys one yes? i always thought that would be one of the more difficult ones! ine never attmpeted it so i dont know how it is to play.
_________________________
Patience's the best teacher, and time the best critic. - F.F.Chopin

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#508151 - 08/17/07 03:59 PM Re: if anyone knows chopin op 10 no 4, help (UPDATE, QUESTION
pianist.ame Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/18/07
Posts: 1164
Loc: Singapore
umm...you're level is grade 9 rcm, and you want to learn Op.10 No.4,seriously, I would'nt reccomend it at this level.

Secondly, you should talk to your teacher 1st, she will know whether you are ready for chopin etudes.

The trois nouvelles etudes are way more feastable for you right now.

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#508152 - 08/17/07 04:33 PM Re: if anyone knows chopin op 10 no 4, help (UPDATE, QUESTION
Antonius Hamus Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/24/05
Posts: 2230
Try at what tempo you can learn to play it in a couple of weeks... (And now...

 Quote:
Originally posted by Amelialw:

The trois nouvelles etudes are way more feastable for you right now. [/b]
A brilliant neologism

)

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#508153 - 08/17/07 07:50 PM Re: if anyone knows chopin op 10 no 4, help (UPDATE, QUESTION
Gyro Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/24/05
Posts: 4533
You could probably play this if you
put enough time into it. I'm not a fan
of Chopin etudes. I think they are
just too difficult. Professional
concert pianists can't even play some of
them, which bodes ill for an amateur
who tries to play them at full throttle.

For example, take the 4th measure. You're
going to have to take the right hand
figures with the rt. alone, a daunting
task at the speed this is supposed to
be played at. This kind of thing can simply
wear out your hands, with no apparent
practical benefit returned for your trouble.

If you want something technically challenging,
I'd suggest instead tackling one of the big
Romantic Era concertos. That's real
music, unlike this Czerny-like technical
study with its hand-wrecking pace.

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#508154 - 08/17/07 09:40 PM Re: if anyone knows chopin op 10 no 4, help (UPDATE, QUESTION
hopinmad Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/07
Posts: 1001
Loc: Eryri/Manchester
"That's real
music, unlike this Czerny-like technical
study with its hand-wrecking pace."

Now, I'm sorry but I have never heard such an opinion expressed concerning Chopin's etudes!! It is nothing whatsoever like a "Czerny-like technical study with it's hand-wrecking pace" (not that I have anything against Czerny). For starters, your hand will only be 'wrecked' if you don't have good enough technique for it. I diskile disagreeing on posts and such but implying that this thrilling masterpiece is a waste of time is ridiculous. It is "real music". In fact, it is one of the most inspiring pieces that exists; when heard for the first time, the sheer excitement of it fires one up inside, and that feeling is so for the first copule of times it is heard, of course if you feel different, as you obviously do, it remains a great piece; the theme repeating between the hands and the striking harmonies, the rhythms and dynamics, it's wonderful!!
How can you dare criticise a piece like this?


To lonewolf 604 - if you put loads and loads of time, and believ me it would be an unrealistic, impractical, impossible amount of time, it would be learnt, but that goe for everything. build up to it so you can learn it in a possible amount of time, and not murder it, because that is what will happen if you wont be able to polay it well. dont get me wrong, you may be good enough, but you dont want to just play the notes, you have to ahve the piece in your com,plete control, and maybe grade 9 isnt normally a sufficent standard, though you may be an exception, it would howveer be foolhardy to risk it, simple try an easier etude and get a good enough technque before (not attempting) mastering this piece.
_________________________
Patience's the best teacher, and time the best critic. - F.F.Chopin

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#508155 - 08/18/07 02:12 AM Re: if anyone knows chopin op 10 no 4, help (UPDATE, QUESTION
BruceD Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 17670
Loc: Victoria, BC
 Quote:
Originally posted by hopinmad:
"That's real
music, unlike this Czerny-like technical
study with its hand-wrecking pace."

Now, I'm sorry but I have never heard such an opinion expressed concerning Chopin's etudes!! It is nothing whatsoever like a "Czerny-like technical study with it's hand-wrecking pace" (not that I have anything against Czerny). [...] How can you dare criticise a piece like this?

[/b]
hopinmad :

Don't get "hoppin' mad" over what Gyro says about Chopin Etudes and Chopin Nocturnes. His minority opinion - to which, I guess, he is entitled - is that Chopin Etudes are unmusical exercises and that the Nocturnes are second-rate salon pieces not worthy of a great composer - or of study by "serious" pianists.

I mean, what the heck! I keep harping on what a shallow piece of "clap-trap" Islamey is, every time it comes up in discussion and you know that no one else agrees with that opinion, either!

Cheers, mate!
_________________________
BruceD
- - - - -
Estonia 190 in satin ebony
Writing from Paris until 15 May, 2014

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#508156 - 08/18/07 02:48 AM Re: if anyone knows chopin op 10 no 4, help (UPDATE, QUESTION
appassionata9 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/15/06
Posts: 35
I dont know much about RCM grade levels, could someone explain them to me?
Sorry to get off topic, lonewolf604. I agree that op. 10 no. 4 is a very difficult etude to start with - in fact a very difficult etude in general. It was my third chopin etude. Why dont you start with something like op. 25 no. 2 in f minor? That's just a suggestion- first thing you should do is ask your teacher.

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#508157 - 08/18/07 07:02 AM Re: if anyone knows chopin op 10 no 4, help (UPDATE, QUESTION
argerichfan Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/15/06
Posts: 8696
Loc: Pacific Northwest, US.
 Quote:
Originally posted by BruceD:
Don't get "hoppin' mad" over what Gyro says about Chopin Etudes and Chopin Nocturnes. His minority opinion is that Chopin Etudes are unmusical exercises and that the Nocturnes are second-rate salon pieces not worthy of a great composer - or of study by "serious" pianists.

I keep harping on what a shallow piece of "clap-trap" Islamey is, every time it comes up in discussion and you know that no one else agrees with that opinion, either!
That's okay Bruce, I can't stand Bartok's Allegro Barbaro, yet perhaps I'm in a minority there too. Whatever. Outside of the UK, most people can't understand what the appeal of Elgar is.

As for Gyro, he always makes his statement (in a highly stylized format- one can always recognise his posts instantly), and then moves on. He could care less what anyone else thinks and never responds to any challenges. One needs to keep this in mind.

For those of us that "know better", Gyro's posts about Chopin's Etudes and Nocturnes carry no weight whatsoever, yet I fear for younger and less experienced pianists who might take his pronouncements seriously.

Rather a pity, since Gyro has on occasion made some very valid comments on the Adult Beginner's Forum. Yet with all due respect, his "signal to noise" ratio on the Pianist Corner forum is much too high, IMHO.
_________________________
Jason

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#508158 - 08/18/07 07:57 AM Re: if anyone knows chopin op 10 no 4, help (UPDATE, QUESTION
gerg Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/02/07
Posts: 1651
Loc: Houston, TX
lonewolf604, some friendly advice and I really hope this is taken in the spirit in which it is intended.

As an autodidact I am unfamiliar with the British/Canadian grading system, but if you need others to inform you about the difficulty of learning a piece you may not be ready for it.

That said, it is possible that you may have the rare gift for self-criticism and identifying and correcting your own technical deficiencies such that you can acquire the technique on your own. In that case I would direct you to CC Chang, whose ideas would help greatly in that regard.

Don't ever let others tell you you "can't" do something, but also be realistic with yourself.

Hope that helps.
_________________________
http://www.ecital.net
Wikicital: A collaborative effort to build a knowledgebase of classical music history combined with examples. Your chance to both perform and write...

Don't click here!

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#508159 - 08/18/07 10:12 AM Re: if anyone knows chopin op 10 no 4, help (UPDATE, QUESTION
lonewolf604 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/08/07
Posts: 53
Loc: Vancouver BC
well to give people a better idea of me, im an average piano player, and i like chopin
ive half learned heroic and military polonaise. i fully learned minute waltz and fantasies impromptu
now to get to the point: those pieces i just mentioned, i never thought i could play (or even progress slowly)
i guess i was just really determined to learn these, even though im not much of a pianist (and the fact that the pieces i just mentioned aren't chopins hardest pieces
eh whatever, lets just hope i can tackle this etude

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#508160 - 08/18/07 10:21 AM Re: if anyone knows chopin op 10 no 4, help (UPDATE, QUESTION
lonewolf604 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/08/07
Posts: 53
Loc: Vancouver BC
sorry for this irrelevant topic

ill learn this piece
if a guy on youtube (whos been playing 4-6 years) can learn this etude and 2 others in a month,whats stopping me

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#508161 - 08/18/07 11:57 AM Re: if anyone knows chopin op 10 no 4, help (UPDATE, QUESTION
Varcon Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/15/04
Posts: 1931
Loc: Mount Vernon, Georgia 30445
The piece itself is a wonderful example of music as well as being a technical challenge. By slow, careful study one can improve technique and musicianship at the same time.

As to Gyro's comments, I always, except for a few of his comments that actually made sense, discount his posts as they are, for the most part, irrelevant and any knowledgeable musician will recognize that instantly.

Some preparatory etudes of Henselt, Moszkowski, or others might be wise to pursue before tackling this etude of Chopin. I use this one in my etude 'bank' to keep up technique and enjoy working on it immensely as I feel it helps my playing in general. I've never performed it in public and probably won't but it is a wonderful finger exercise and the resulting reward is beautiful music.

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#508162 - 08/18/07 12:57 PM Re: if anyone knows chopin op 10 no 4, help (UPDATE, QUESTION
hopinmad Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/07
Posts: 1001
Loc: Eryri/Manchester
Of course opinions are to be entitled with, however it seemed as though there should be a limit!!!! lol
_________________________
Patience's the best teacher, and time the best critic. - F.F.Chopin

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#508163 - 08/18/07 04:41 PM Re: if anyone knows chopin op 10 no 4, help (UPDATE, QUESTION
Varcon Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/15/04
Posts: 1931
Loc: Mount Vernon, Georgia 30445
hopinmad:

Of course I think Gyro has every right to post his opinions and observations and, as with any poster, others can post their observations and opinions whether agreeing or not with whatever is posted. Hm . . .I wonder if I could make that more convoluted?

Anyway, not to overly disparage Gyro's posts and opinions, I don't think his posts exemplify a majority opinion but they do definitely give pause for thought.

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#508164 - 08/18/07 05:05 PM Re: if anyone knows chopin op 10 no 4, help (UPDATE, QUESTION
Fraggle Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/26/07
Posts: 384
Loc: Nottingham, U.K.
I`d like to hear Gyro`s playing.
_________________________
Will

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#508165 - 08/18/07 07:05 PM Re: if anyone knows chopin op 10 no 4, help (UPDATE, QUESTION
gerg Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/02/07
Posts: 1651
Loc: Houston, TX
 Quote:
Originally posted by lonewolf604:
well to give people a better idea of me, im an average piano player, and i like chopin
ive half learned heroic and military polonaise. i fully learned minute waltz and fantasies impromptu
now to get to the point: those pieces i just mentioned, i never thought i could play (or even progress slowly)
i guess i was just really determined to learn these, even though im not much of a pianist (and the fact that the pieces i just mentioned aren't chopins hardest pieces
eh whatever, lets just hope i can tackle this etude [/b]
Since you've learned these other difficult works, esp. Op.66, Op.53, there's no point in "stepping up" to it by learning music that has absolutely zero interest for you. Those pieces ARE your stepping stones - and technique unique (within your repertoire) to 10/4 you'll have to acquire learning the piece itself. Doing that QUICKLY will require self-observation/self-criticim, but it sounds like you already know how to do that if indeed you can well play Op.66, Op.53, Op.64/1, etc.

A red-flag for me is that you mentioned you are halfway though the Op.53. From experience I'll tell you that it can be dejective to have too many "unfinished" threads dangling from the repertoire. May want to consider that.
_________________________
http://www.ecital.net
Wikicital: A collaborative effort to build a knowledgebase of classical music history combined with examples. Your chance to both perform and write...

Don't click here!

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#508166 - 08/18/07 08:00 PM Re: if anyone knows chopin op 10 no 4, help (UPDATE, QUESTION
Alan G Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/19/07
Posts: 20
Loc: Ireland
 Quote:
Originally posted by lonewolf604:
if a guy on youtube (whos been playing 4-6 years) can learn this etude and 2 others in a month,whats stopping me [/b]
Ah seriously, come on. 4-6 years. And did he say he's been playing for that long? If he can play it well, it's very unlikely he's been playing for 4-6 years. If he has been playing for 4-6 years, then he does not play it well.

Basically, go by your own standard. Is your technique up to the challenge? Can you play the first few bars HS (hands separately) comfortably after 10 or 20 minutes practice?

This Chopin Op.10 no.4 is one of the most difficult Chopin pieces I know, in my opinion.

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#508167 - 08/18/07 10:20 PM Re: if anyone knows chopin op 10 no 4, help (UPDATE, QUESTION
hopinmad Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/07
Posts: 1001
Loc: Eryri/Manchester
"Basically, go by your own standard. Is your technique up to the challenge? Can you play the first few bars HS (hands separately) comfortably after 10 or 20 minutes practice?"

Out of curiousity now, is that generally a good idea, to test out the technique in seperate hands after a few minutes??? It sounds so, though I've never thought of it like that, I think I will now though!!
_________________________
Patience's the best teacher, and time the best critic. - F.F.Chopin

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#508168 - 08/18/07 11:00 PM Re: if anyone knows chopin op 10 no 4, help (UPDATE, QUESTION
lonewolf604 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/08/07
Posts: 53
Loc: Vancouver BC
well about 3 days practice, i have the first page both hands slow-medium speed

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#508169 - 08/18/07 11:11 PM Re: if anyone knows chopin op 10 no 4, help (UPDATE, QUESTION
hopinmad Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/07
Posts: 1001
Loc: Eryri/Manchester
together??? that's very good, how much a day did you do?
_________________________
Patience's the best teacher, and time the best critic. - F.F.Chopin

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#508170 - 08/19/07 06:12 AM Re: if anyone knows chopin op 10 no 4, help (UPDATE, QUESTION
pianist.ame Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/18/07
Posts: 1164
Loc: Singapore
appasionata: here you go

Royal Consevatory of Music (RCM)

Introductory Grade - Grade 10

Introductory Grade: any 3 contrasting pieces
Grade 1-2: 1 Baroque/Classical, 1 Romantic/20th C , 1 invention and 1 study
Grade 3-7: 1 Baroque, 1 Classical/Classica style, 1 Romantic/20th C and 2 studies
Grade 8-9: 1 Baroque, 1 Classical, 1 Romantic, 1 20th C and 2 studies
Grade 10: 1 Baroque, 1 Classical Sonata, 1 Romantic, 2 20th C and 2 studies

Pass: 60-69
Honors: 70-79
1st Class Honors: 80-89
1st Class Honors with Distinction: 90-100
* for grade 10 at least 75 or 70% for each section is required to carry on to ARCT and a prelude and fugue is required either for grade 9,10 or ARCT to graduate

Associate of Royal Consevatory of Toronto (ARCT)
3 diplomas
- ARCT Performer's
1 work of J.S Bach, 1 Sonata, 1 Romantic, 2 20th C and 1 Concert Etude
- ARCT Teacher's
1 P+F, 1 grade 9 work, 1 grade 10 work and 2 ARCT Performer's Pieces
- ARCT in Theory

Pass: 70 required for ARCT Performers and 75 required for ARCT Teachers
Honors: 70-80
1st Class Honors: 80-90
1st Class Honors with Distinction: 90-100

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#508171 - 08/19/07 06:18 AM Re: if anyone knows chopin op 10 no 4, help (UPDATE, QUESTION
Mr_Kitty Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/07
Posts: 667
Loc: Toronto
ease up on gyro guys.
if he doesn't like chopin etudes and finds them too difficult, that's HIS problem. not yours.

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#508172 - 08/19/07 08:24 AM Re: if anyone knows chopin op 10 no 4, help (UPDATE, QUESTION
AZNpiano Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/07/07
Posts: 5278
Loc: Orange County, CA
lonewolf604:

Wow, Op. 10 No. 4 for your _first_ Chopin etude?! I went through several other Chopin etudes before I tackled 10/4. You are brave.

Just a personal experience on this piece--the opening five notes (the link between D# and the octave C#) always gave me a slight pain in the forearm. After six weeks of Taubman training, that pain went away. I discovered that the pain was caused by my trying to play the D# to C# octave with finger legato. I don't have the score in front of me, but I remember adding several "strategic staccatos" in the middle of legato passages, which enabled me to play with cleaner fingers.
_________________________
Private Piano Teacher and MTAC Member

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#508173 - 08/19/07 12:27 PM Re: if anyone knows chopin op 10 no 4, help (UPDATE, QUESTION
JBiegel Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/16/07
Posts: 850
Lonewold604--just practice it slowly alittle every day and enjoy it. Because all pieces are written in different keys, and each hand is different, this etude may or may not pose any major difficulties for you and your hand. No need to work too long at it each day, as it will be a cumulative effort over time. You should add it to other pieces, of course. How about finding the Hugo Reinhold 'Impromptu in c-sharp minor' which coincides with Chopin's Fantasie-Impromptu in the same key? Sometimes playing other virtuosic pieces in the same key helps solidify the scaler passages in the other. It took me many years until I had the nerve to sit down and record Op 10 #4 (You Tube has it), so starting now would be good.
_________________________
www.jeffreybiegel.com

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#508174 - 08/19/07 05:20 PM Re: if anyone knows chopin op 10 no 4, help (UPDATE, QUESTION
pianist.ame Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/18/07
Posts: 1164
Loc: Singapore
"I'm not a fan of Chopin etudes. I think they are
just too difficult. Professional
concert pianists can't even play some of
them, which bodes ill for an amateur
who tries to play them at full throttle."

No, they are not, you just have to be willing to spend time on those and work problems out but I agree it might be too difficult for anyone who has'nt mastered their technique yet.

That's no true, my teacher is a professional pianst and she performed all of Op.10 in one concert and finished learning every single other one. Look at all those famous pianists, don't they all/or at least most of them play chopin etudes.

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#508175 - 08/19/07 07:38 PM Re: if anyone knows chopin op 10 no 4, help (UPDATE, QUESTION
Varcon Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/15/04
Posts: 1931
Loc: Mount Vernon, Georgia 30445
JBiegel has a very sensible suggestion and approach. You can learn it HS by section/page and then together but slowly as the ultimate speed is only reached by careful preparation (unless you already have a complete technique, which from your post is not quite there). I learned it that way--hands alone and section by section. Sometimes I play it all the way through hands alone and then together. For this one I increased the metronome two notches each week as the base for very (and I do mean VERY) slow practice. No matter what the progress and accomplishment my teacher wanted me (and the others) to continue slow practice even tho the piece might have been ready for public presentation.

I still do practise that way--slow (very) first, gradually faster (often with metronome) and then a tempo (or as close to it as I can depending on the stage of learning).

And some other pieces that will contribute to your overall musicianship and technique are important too. Whether you would actually present a public recital or not, it might be something to consider, i.e., plan a program with some varied pieces and styles and include the ones you're particularly interested in adding to your repertoire. Self-satisfaction with your progress is as important as public adulation and you should be your severest critic setting the highest standards for yourself. Then work to get there.

As my teacher said, practice is hard work. It's not all fun and enjoyment. But the hard work sure results in fun, satisfaction, and enjoyment.

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#508176 - 08/20/07 10:56 PM Re: if anyone knows chopin op 10 no 4, help (UPDATE, QUESTION
lonewolf604 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/08/07
Posts: 53
Loc: Vancouver BC
well im maybe ok progress, still on the first page
i am now familiar with the notes on the first page. when that happens, i usually strain myself and see how fast i can go, and i can go about medium-fast speed, so now im going to move on and familiarize myself with the second page

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#508177 - 08/22/07 08:04 AM Re: if anyone knows chopin op 10 no 4, help (UPDATE, QUESTION
lonewolf604 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/08/07
Posts: 53
Loc: Vancouver BC
im gettin a bit faster on the first page now, but of course i don't over do it
but i have a question
in the 4th measure, the last chord, are you suppose to press both the C# and D # with the thumb?

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