Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Pianist Corner i can't seem to get the hang of opera

Let's say that out of musical curiosity, i've tried almost everthg the repertoire can offer, from baroque to contemporary music(Boulez, Stockhausen, Messiaen..)
but for some reason i just can't get used to the opera texture and i feel like i'm passing out on some masters like Wagner or Mahler

maybe because the lyrics are often in german??maybe is it the high pitches?i don't know, but i would like some "easy" beginner opera titles to get started

Start with some of the Mozart operas - they tend to be pretty accessible. Don Giovanni and Marriage of Figaro are great ones to start with. Rossini operas can also be good - try The Barber of Seville. And while I personally am not a big fan of Johann Strauss, Die Fledermaus is a fun one.

Wagner operas tend to be an acquired taste - they're great works, but I wouldn't recommend them as a first opera. As for Mahler, he didn't write any operas - but his symphonies are awesome...

Most people's first experience with opera is hearing it over the radio, or some unflattering depiction of it in pop culture (e.g., TV ads). Trying to appreciate opera by hearing it only is like enjoying a movie blindfolded. You're only getting a portion of the experience.

Unfortunately, most people aren't willing to shell out the expensive ticket prices to try something they're already predisposed to dislike. Many opera companies offer outreach performances to draw in new audiences. Take advantage of these.

Hahaha.... I just finished reading, "Bach, Beethoven, and The Boys," and he had nothing good to say of Mahler, little good to say about Wagner, and NOTHING good to say about opera. LOL

Opera is the most wonderful art medium of all. Here you have beautiful music, song, dance, drama, comedy, all rolled into one performance. But it is a heavy art form to get into, therefore, start carefully. First, get a CD with the highlights from Puccini's "La Boheme", that should light your candle and make you ask for more. (I took a friend of mine to his first opera which happened to be "Boheme", and after the second act was over, he sighed: "God, I wish it would never end.")
When you have familiarized yourself with Puccini's romantic perennial, go to Verdi and continue with "La Traviata". Tons of hummable tunes here. After you have heard Violetta die prettily on cue a dozen times, you may advance to Donizetti. His waltz orgy "Lucia di Lammermoor" will give you a prime example of Bel Canto. Especially the mad scene. Get Anna Netrebko, that girl knows how to kill a groom and get away with it.
When you have mastered these three, the sky's the limit. Just one thing: Before you try Wagner, let Anna Russell give you the introduction to these masterpieces. She will also tell you that "The beauty with grand opera is that you can do ANYthing as long as you SING it!"
(To 8UDE: "Die Fledermaus" is lovely, but is no opera. It's an operetta, a lighter form of the medium.)

La Traviata is always my favorite. i saw it performed live on stage twice at least plus some movie versions of it (one of which sang by Domingo).

i also saw Tosca on stage once, and a few times of Marriage of Figaro live.

not much i've seen beside those though (except on TV/PBS). i really don't like Tchakoviski's opera - that Eugen Onegen(?), heard only on radio or some scence on PBS, because i just don't like all melodies sang in there, not even one single tune i like.

I saw Eugene Onegin live and thought it was excellent. Another great one that I saw live, though not one I'd recommend starting with, was Debussy's Pelleas and Melisande.

I second the suggestion of some Puccini - he's got great stuff. Boheme and Butterfly shouldn't be missed, and Tosca is really good too. Verdi's Rigoletto and Traviata are excellent too.

There's a lot of great opera out there - just give it a chance.

Magic Flute - Ingmar Bergman - on video - in Swedish with subtitles - marvelous!


John

COMRADE!!

The genius of Bergman enhancing the genius of Mozart. And Håkan Hagegård aint bad either...

"La Boheme" is actually quite lovely, as is "Madam Butterfly."

And although it's not a real opera, "Phantom Of The Opera," is probably my favorite performance and soundtrack, EVER.

Phantom of the Opera, isn't that the musical where you come out of the theatre, humming the set?

Hahaha... Yep! I have the score, which for me, is fabulously difficult, but after seeing the performance, I was utterly wrung out... I had laughed, cried, exulted, and been heartbroken. I see it everytime it comes to Nashville. I love it...

I suggest you pick an opera which matches your preferred style of music - so if you like Baroque try Monteverdi, or of you prefer Classical try some Mozart (Cosi FanTutti is good). If you like something more romantic then Puccini and Verdi depending on whether hyou like tunes or drama! And if you like 20th century music then any of the operas by Janacek are very accessible - particularly From the House of the dead, Katja Kabanova and The Cunning Little Vixen. Any of these operas or composers are probably good ways to get into the style - certainly easier than dipping straight into Wagner.

My 2 favourite operas: Die Freischutz by Weber and Faust by Bussoni.

I think as an introduction to opera you can't go wrong with Bizet's "Carmen." Familiar, immensely hummable melodies, accessible story... I like Madame Butterfly, too.

For modern operas, Philip Glass's works are incredible. I had the good fortune to be present at the premiere of "The Juniper Tree" in 1985 (which he composed with Robert Moran). Stunning, intense, and sad work.

"Bach, Beethoven and the Boys chronicles the lives of the great (and not-so-great) composers as you've never read them before - exploring their sex lives, exposing their foibles and expanding our knowledge of these remarkable but also human creatures."

"Facts and trivia abound in this gentle expose of music history. From Bach's laundry lists to Handel's unexpected success in Italy, this provides a lively, involving format which treats musicians as human beings and which reads almost like an action novel in exploring their lives and approaches to music and its marketing."

Well, I wouldn't put too much store in the critical appartus of Barber & Donald - at least, not in this context - if this is what their book is about.

Regards,

i forgot about Carmen. i remember seeing a movie version Carmen (foregin, Spain or something?) long time ago, where it had 2 story lines going: one is Carmen the opera (or theatric dance version) and the other is the actors/singers(or dancers) who actually play the main roles. it has all of opera singing and drama except sometimes you don't really know which is opera and which is the actors' story anymore, and when he did kill her, i don't know they're just acting for the opera or in real life. it was really interesting.

yeah i think i saw that one, it was rather old wasn't it?
thanks for all the help, i'll get my hands on some of those very soon i hope

....and to all you operalovers: It is Madama Butterfly, not Madame. Remember, it is an Italian opera.

Speaking of movie versions, that movie version of "La Traviata" is worth seeing in a theatre. It is an outrageously lavish production by Franco Zeffirelli. He also did a lavish film version of "Otello" that some people like more.

Both of these may offer the easiest (?), cheapest way to get some of the effect of grand opera at home.

I really liked that Spanish film version of "Carmen" - it was an ode to Flamenco dancing (but had no singing, if I recall correctly).

Opera, without any singing. Now THAT may just be your cup of tea! :p

I'm a fan of opera overtures, myself.

That "Traviata" movie was a travesty. Franco Zeffirelli at his melagomaniest. And they cut out my favorite cabaletta in the last act, I almost spit at the screen. But then I thought: Our newspaper critic will get them for this, and he DID! A few years later I met Mr. Marouani in Paris, the man responsible for the sound, and he apologized and told me that it was all a matter of not making the movie too long. (He also told me some hot gossip about the stars, oh la la, what goes on in that opera world!!!)
Later I saw Zefirelli's stage version of "Traviata" at the Metropolitan in NY with Veronica Villaroel, and I left after the second act. Big does not mean better.
As for the flamenco version of Carmen, I didn't like it one bit. These things have been done to death. Prosper Merimee must be rolling in his grave.

Opera can be problematic... If you have bad listening equipment, the singing might sound worse than Sh--I mean, it might sound unbearably bad.

If the singers, or some of them, are bad, the problem is similar (I, for one, don't like nor even understand the overuse of vibrato (overuse is the singer singing mostly other pitches than the ones desired by the composer that aren't mostly even very close to the desired ones), and as far as I know, neither did Mozart nor Wagner).

If the sound of the recording is bad: not good, not good...

I think this would be a good moment to adver--to verbalize, to, umm, recommend the following recording of Tristan & Isolde:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0006ZFQP8/

The sound is very good. Kleiber is unbeatable, at least in the first act. Price as Isolde sounds heavenly feminine, and she mostly sings with a natural, slight, quick vibrato. Most of the other singers are nice in the vibrato department too, and also otherwise, if not as outstanding as Price (somebody put me to sleep before I write more sentences like that one).

I think Tristan, with this recording and good equpiment, is the place to start or continue.

i'm listening to my favorite aria in marriage of figaro right this very moment. "tell me what love is..." sung by cherubino. it's gorgeous. there is nothing more human and profound than mozart opera.

i suggest getting videos/DVDs of great performances with the subtitles, so you can follow the story. some of the stories are really great.

"carmen" is an excellent suggestion, very accessible. there is a film version with placido domingo that came out in the 1980s that is fantastic.

i have another domingo video, this one of "tosca" which is also really terrific. catherine malfitano ain't bad either.

other than videos, if you have access to free staged opera in the parks, that is what got me hooked. i was there every thursday night in the summers.

i loved david hockney's staging of "the magic flute" at the met and went to see it several times. if that is on video, get it.

WB, you're right and it didn't have singing really (how come i couldn't recall that?). i only saw it once at a film festival or something long long time ago. now i remember more of it now!

There's a wonderfully atmospheric, dark and evil film of Don Giovanni with Ruggiero Raimondo as the Don. It may have been another Zeffirelli, I can't remember exactly. The overture is accompanied by scenes of Venetian glass-making.


John

I hate to be a party pooper, but I blame my dislike of opera on the singers. VIBRATO VIBRATO VIBRATO. I'm sitting there thinking "hmmmm, what note are they supposed to be singing here?? I wonder...." It drives me INSANE.

If you're OK with Stockhausen, Boulez, and someone else you mentioned, than I don't think the problem is the ease of listening of the particular opera.

I'm struck by a couple of things. You write "i just can't get used to the opera texture," and later, "VIBRATO, VIBRATO, VIBRATO," and it brings this question to mind: do you like singing, and more specifically, do you like classical singing, and lastly--just a hunch--do you like sopranos.

"Opera texture." I'm not sure what you're getting at here, but I suspect it is the soprano voice. Many people who dislike opera really dislike sopranos. You gotta learn to love them. It's like olives that way. Sopranos, of all the voices, record the most poorly, and oftentimes sound shrill. It's difficult not to hear them. The sound they make demands to be heard. Opera is a dramatic venue, and opera composers need that quality. It is essential to opera.

After many years of being a singer myself, and avidly listening to every singer I could, I have to say that the soprano is my favorite voice.

But getting back to you again: you write "opera texture," and "VIBRATO VIBRATO VIBRATO. The issue is singing, not the music.

I'm guessing that you need to come to terms with the conventions of singing.

Vibrato and/or the lack of vibrato, is a part of singing, just like the crescendo and decrescendo on a single note, or the change of tone color, or the portamento, or starting a note a little flat and bending into it as a little vibrato is added. These are all standard conventions in singing.

I think once you accept that, and then learn how different singers employ these conventions in different ways to make a personal style, you'll learn to appreciate singing--and then opera.

None of this is meant to say that some singers don't go overboard with vibrato. But not all of them do. There are many fine opera singers around today, and a wealth of Lieder and Art Song singers too, (in general, you'll find that recitalists use less vibrato than opera singers).

Try listening to different singers sing the same aria. I suggest "O mio bambino caro" from Gianni Schicci, by Puccini. It's been recorded over and over by many different sopranos. Listen to how they use vibrato differently, portamento differenctly, pitch differently. Listen five times each to three different sopranos sing this aria, and I think you'll start to love singing, and love sopranos too, and even love a little vibrato.

Opera is wonderful. You are missing something. I'd get over it.

Tomasino

Slightly off topic :

(From a Joyce Grenfell monologue) Two wealthy patrons of the arts are waiting to talk to a pianist who has just given a recital.

"Oh, my dear, yes; I just love music! I just sit back and let it pour all over me. I guess that's what I don't like about Beethoven; I mean, he just doesn't pour, does he?"

Cheers!

Just before you posted, I was thinking of sending him a recording of Renata Tebaldi singing that very aria.

Her voice and that aria are irresistible.

Mel

yes it's quite possible the soprano voice is the problem and not the music itself as you suggested

i have heard some choral pieces(not operas)such as mozart's requiem and of course the final mvt of beethoven's 9th these were very enjoyable pieces perahps because there was a certain balance between the amount of instrumental music and singing

i'm still a stranger though to this world of sopranos and high pitched singing, i'm on the right track to it, i suppose, some day i might just start liking it

I only heard Barber of Sevilla, Don Giovanni, Magic Flute and a macedonian opera that noone from other countries knows it because noone performs it!

You just took the words out of my mo--- eh, keyboard. And Montserrat Caballe aint too bad either.
Then get a recording of Lucia Popp doing "Die hölle Rache kocht in meimem Herzen" from the Magic Flute. If that doesn't blow you away, nothing will.

Rossini : Barber of Seville

He was the first operatic composer that intentionally made the audience laugh & Terrific melodies.

For about $9 usa you can get the DVD at berkshirerecordoutlet.com. Fall in love w/ Joyce di Donato visually and musically. BTW Figaro wears a blinking barber-pole as an entrace costume as he walks through the audience.

PS Rossini's nickname was Mr. Crescendo & he doesn't disappoint.

pps:
if you don't like it you can hang the DVD w/a string on your deck to keep woodpeckers away. The oscillating spectrum of reflecting colors does the trick.

well, i love opera and i don't particularly like sopranos. i much prefer the frequencies of the alto voice. for that matter, i prefer the sound of a viola to a violin, the sound of a clarinet to a flute.

i do make an exception for roberta peters in the role of the queen of the night. my god, that woman has the voice of an oboe. it's inhuman.

Elisabeth Schwarzkopf (who recently died) had a gorgeous soprano voice -- her singing of Strauss was magnificent (the Marschallin in Der Rosenkavalier I believe was one of her roles).

Sophia

I don't think anyone would argue with the statement that Schwarzkopf was the Marschallin. Her recording of the role with von Karajan (EMI - 1957) has never been equalled and may never be surpassed.

Regards,

I miss Lucia Popp.

And Schwarzkopf, of course.

--you just need to find the right recordings, or attend some live performances. Many, not all, sopranos simply sound more or less unpleasant on record (the date of the recording alone is no guarantee of anything).

And you really need to have decent hi-fi equipment. Before I had mine, many tenors, for example, occasionally sounded as if they had been singing through their noses.

Of course, you will no doubt be able to begin liking opera anyway by ignoring the conceivable unpleasant sounds and concentrating on the melodies and harmonies they produce. But at least Wagner is as much about sound as it is about harmonies & melodies...

As for balances... The most important balance in opera, at least for me, is that of music and recitative, which balance is ideal when there is little recitative. Unfortunately, also Wagner employs more than little recitative, perhaps contrary to Wagner's own & some other beliefs. Die Walkure contains much recitative, but the first act is simply unmissable: you can't miss it without missing something too good to be missed. I recommend Karajan with Vickers and Janowitz as Siegmund and Sieglinde (is there a better one out there in decent sound (and I mean good sound by general standards)?).

Tristan & Isolde contains much less recitative than Die Walkure, and is much more unmissable on whole. Parsifal is the most unmissable opera, after Tristan & Isolde. Goodall made an excellent digital recording of Parsifal, recorded in long takes.

With Mozart, I would suggest starting with highlights, since his operas mainly consist of arias and (real) recitatives. The long D minor sequence or aria near the end of Don Giovanni is something utterly unmissable (what would be some of the best recordings of this that can be found on highlights-albums?). The famous Queen of the Night aria in The Magic Flute is another unmissable one (although not nearly as unmissable as the Don Giovanni sequence I mentioned). And, of course, there are many others--

And along with Tebaldi and Caballe, let's add Zinka Milanov.

If he doesn't like Lucia Popp singing Queen of the Night, perhaps Florence Foster Jenkins is more his style.

By the way, to my ears, the RCA set of La Traviata with Caballe, Bergonzi and Milnes is incredibly beautiful.

Mel

.....and nowhere has anyone mentioned Björling. The epitome of a tenorial voice. Listen to that little cabaletta Amore te vieta from Fedora, and you will never feel the same again.

I love opera and always get season tickets. This coming season, here in Portland, we are being offered Mozart's Magic Flute, Wagner's Flying Dutchman, Bellini's Norma--which is seldom offered, and Faust.
The stage settings, the drama the music,--it is all just absolutely wonderful.

I too saw the Spanish film version of Carmen a number of years ago. I remember the wonderful dancing--but if I recall the music was not that of Bizet, but was flamenco music.

I enjoy Wagner,but detested the modern dress version of one of his operas. Siegfried wore a dirty looking Tee shirt, and looked like Marlon Brando in "Streetcar Named Desire," All I could think of was Brando's bawling "Stella, Stella,"
Woton wore a crumpled business suit, and Brunhilda was dressed in what looked like a flannel night gown.

That was the only time I did not enjoy an opera. Had trouble trying to keep from giggling in all the wrong places. Gaby Tu

you think it would be a good idea if i started off with some short choral pieces(Shubert Lieder, Mahler, cantatas??) to get used to soprano voice then move on to opera?

Very important to get into the words, with translation, of course. Start with "Dramatic" (as opposed to "let's listen to the vocal fireworks...") operas like Carmen, Tosca, The Magic Flute and other good accessible works mentioned previously. Follow with a libretto word-for-word, don't just sit back and hope it "gets to you". I like some of videos of actual stage productions over most of the films I've seen (films are often just too far from the intended context of the stage).

Try a few like this one act at a time. First Wagner I would recommend (following with libretto!) is actually Das Rheingold, cause it's "short" by Dick's standards, and you go total immersion into his world.

Good Luck (just try and ignore today's wide, slow vibrato tendancies and go for the action and music).

I would suggest starting with:


1) Puccini's "La Boheme"

2) Mozart's "The Magic Flute" (Die Zauberfloete)

3) Verdi's "La Traviata"


By listening to great singers, a pianist can learn a lot about creating a "singing tone" with his fingers.

Mel

I should add Das Rheingold, especially the first scene, to the unmissables. The first scene is about 25 minutes long, full of music, kind of works like a classical symphony. My favourite recording is Levine's, with Wlaschiha as Alberich (I don't know anything about the singer, except that he's my favourite bass voice now, by far).

PS. One of my friends who listens to a bit of classical now and then, but not opera, always thought that he disliked sopranos... But then he watched Amadeus, and liked the famous Queen of the Night aria and the singing too. However, he disliked another recording of it, the generally admired one sung by Lucia Popp. That's because the sound of the soprano voice in the film is smooth, whereas in the other recording it's shrill. So what do we learn about this? Get the Tristan & Isolde I recommended, Price's (Isolde) voice sounds relatively smooth in it (depends significantly on your equipment, though, as I've been trying to tell... *I* always liked that recording... And there are still sopranos I utterly detest on record).

PPS. If your concern is to not miss unique music, then Wagner and Mozart are obviously the two most important opera composers for you to get into. If you're just trying to start enjoying singing in general, then you should simply start with the best singers, and get what ever they're singing, lied as well as opera... Those singers would include Björling or Bjorling, as already mentioned, Peter Schreier, Fischer-Dieskau, and others...

And if you are getting into Wagner heroines, your first choice should be the Norwegian marvel, Kirsten Flagstad. Never again has there been such a soprano voice on the operatic stage although Birgit Nilsson came very close. Listen to her "Liebestod" from Tristan und Isolde, it is pure gold.

I recently saw on television a snippit of an opera with Maria Callas. I don't know when the recording was made, but it was quite old as the film flickered quite a bit. But the sound track was excellent. Oh, what a voice---like pure velvet. No harsh nasal sounds, just fluid and smooth. Absolutely gorgeous. It was probably one of her last operas as she was very thin.
I was unfamiliar with the aria, and they never did announce the name of the opera. No matter, the singing was superb.

Another one of my favorites is Kiri Te Kanawa (I'm not sure of the spelling). Another gorgeous voice. Gaby Tu

The Maria Callas thing you saw was an excerpt from "Tosca" filmed at Covent Garden in 1964.

It is one of the most remarkable things I've ever seen! It captures the depth of her emotive skills and is quite chilling, considering the terrible predicament her character was experiencing. You see her go through these agonizing emotions, and feel like it is real!

It makes us wonder why this is the ONLY opera of her to be filmed - and only partially, at that.

This reminds me - for anyone not sure if they like opera (but are otherwise very much into instrumental music) maybe the best thing is to get a tape/dvd of arias performed in concert.

The Callas recitals are superb, and show her genius. She was electrifying!

Once you 'get the hang of' some of these arias, then it is a simple next step to start appreciating the entire opera.

That sounds like a good plan!