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#522820 - 01/05/09 07:24 PM Fingering scales in double thirds
Horowitzian Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/18/08
Posts: 8453
What is the most efficient way to finger these? I'm not having the best of luck making these sound even using Hanon's fingering, so I'd like some suggestions or to be pointed to a set of exercises that might have a better fingering.
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#522821 - 01/05/09 07:31 PM Re: Fingering scales in double thirds
jehalliday Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/12/08
Posts: 119
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Do you mean double thirds? If so, the RCM technique book (scales and arpeggios) has them with fingering for each key. I'm told the trick to an even sound is not to play them too slowly although I've yet to master it.

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#522822 - 01/05/09 07:36 PM Re: Fingering scales in double thirds
ThomasF Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/18/08
Posts: 64
Loc: Newmarket

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#522823 - 01/05/09 07:36 PM Re: Fingering scales in double thirds
Horowitzian Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/18/08
Posts: 8453
I'm in the US, so I don't have any RCM stuff.

Double thirds is another name for what I mean. I actually have a scales, etc book. I'll look to see if it has what I need.
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#522824 - 01/05/09 07:37 PM Re: Fingering scales in double thirds
sotto voce Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/15/06
Posts: 6163
Loc: Briarcliff Manor, NY, USA
What's the distinction between thirds and double thirds?

Steven
_________________________

"There are two means of refuge from the miseries of life: music and cats."
—Albert Schweitzer

Chopin: Allegro de Concert Op. 46
Schumann: Toccata Op. 7
Fauré: Ballade Op. 19

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#522825 - 01/05/09 07:38 PM Re: Fingering scales in double thirds
Horowitzian Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/18/08
Posts: 8453
 Quote:
Originally posted by ThomasF:
http://files.sheetmusicarchive.net/compositions_b/grad29.pdf

If that doesn't work, this should:

http://www.filesavr.com/grad29 [/b]
Thanks! I see Tausig's name on it. What is this?
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#522826 - 01/05/09 07:44 PM Re: Fingering scales in double thirds
ThomasF Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/18/08
Posts: 64
Loc: Newmarket
When one plays scales "in thirds" it, it often means "separated by a third". So essentially you can play a C major scale from C-C with L.H. while playing from E-E with R.H. Two keys are depressed at once.

Double thirds essentially means that you play the exercise above, but with one hand. The fingering I'd use with R.H. would be 13, 24, 35, 13, 24, 13, 24, 35.

With double thirds with both hands, you are playing 4 keys at once.


I should point out that you must be very careful while playing double thirds: if you are not relaxed or methodical enough, you can do some serious damage to your arm muscles. Pushing down 2 keys at once with 2 different fingers requires more dexterity than pushing one key down. I advise you to practice double thirds very slowly and relaxed.

Keep in mind that there are records of Rachmaninoff practicing the Chopin double thirds etude at a rate of about 1 bar per 23 seconds.


Edit: Horowitzian, it is double thirds fingering in all 24 major and minor keys.

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#522827 - 01/05/09 07:44 PM Re: Fingering scales in double thirds
sotto voce Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/15/06
Posts: 6163
Loc: Briarcliff Manor, NY, USA
 Quote:
Originally posted by Horowitzian:
Thanks! I see Tausig's name on it. What is this? [/b]
It's from Tausig's edition of selections from Clementi's Gradus ad Parnassum.

Steven
_________________________

"There are two means of refuge from the miseries of life: music and cats."
—Albert Schweitzer

Chopin: Allegro de Concert Op. 46
Schumann: Toccata Op. 7
Fauré: Ballade Op. 19

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#522828 - 01/05/09 07:51 PM Re: Fingering scales in double thirds
Horowitzian Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/18/08
Posts: 8453
 Quote:
Originally posted by ThomasF:
When one plays scales "in thirds" it, it often means "separated by a third". So essentially you can play a C major scale from C-C with L.H. while playing from E-E with R.H. Two keys are depressed at once.

Double thirds essentially means that you play the exercise above, but with one hand. The fingering I'd use with R.H. would be 13, 24, 35, 13, 24, 13, 24, 35.

With double thirds with both hands, you are playing 4 keys at once.


I should point out that you must be very careful while playing double thirds: if you are not relaxed or methodical enough, you can do some serious damage to your arm muscles. Pushing down 2 keys at once with 2 different fingers requires more dexterity than pushing one key down. I advise you to practice double thirds very slowly and relaxed.

Keep in mind that there are records of Rachmaninoff practicing the Chopin double thirds etude at a rate of about 1 bar per 23 seconds.


Edit: Horowitzian, it is double thirds fingering in all 24 major and minor keys. [/b]
Yeah, I guess there is a difference. \:o

Thanks for the warning; I figured out pretty quick that you need to be relaxed in order to play them at all. My problem is smoothness; the Hanon fingering doesn't seem to lent itself all that well to smoothness. I'll try Tausig's fingering and see how it works for me.
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#522829 - 01/05/09 08:13 PM Re: Fingering scales in double thirds
soccer_daemon Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/30/07
Posts: 128
This is another site with good resources, including double thirds scales:

http://www.musicandhealth.co.uk/pedagogy.html

Scroll down to the heading Resources, the 2nd bullet point.

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#522830 - 01/05/09 09:21 PM Re: Fingering scales in double thirds
Horowitzian Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/18/08
Posts: 8453
Thanks! ;\) Looks like the same fingerings as those Tausig exercises above, but a lot easier to read.
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#522831 - 01/05/09 11:36 PM Re: Fingering scales in double thirds
BruceD Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 17835
Loc: Victoria, BC
 Quote:
Originally posted by soccer_daemon:
This is another site with good resources, including double thirds scales:

http://www.musicandhealth.co.uk/pedagogy.html

Scroll down to the heading Resources, the 2nd bullet point. [/b]
This source does not include chromatic scales in double thirds, while Tausig's does - separated by a minor third and by a major third.

Regards,
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#522832 - 01/06/09 12:29 AM Re: Fingering scales in double thirds
jscomposer Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/27/08
Posts: 537
Loc: The Boogie Down
If you're as fast as your buddy Horowitz, you could play 'em all with the same two fingers! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qnla_5zrHAE (around 1:45) ;\)
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#522833 - 01/06/09 12:29 AM Re: Fingering scales in double thirds
Horowitzian Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/18/08
Posts: 8453
 Quote:
Originally posted by BruceD:
 Quote:
Originally posted by soccer_daemon:
This is another site with good resources, including double thirds scales:

http://www.musicandhealth.co.uk/pedagogy.html

Scroll down to the heading Resources, the 2nd bullet point. [/b]
This source does not include chromatic scales in double thirds, while Tausig's does - separated by a minor third and by a major third.

[/b]
No, it's just major and minor.

After playing with the Tausig scales this evening, I noted that the fingerings to make them fit neatly into 4 octaves are rather odd, and hard to remember. I guess they are correct, and OK to drill into habit? Or is there yet a better way I ought to do?

For C major:

3453434534343...34543434354343...543
1231212312121...12321212132121...321

3212132121213...32123121212342...123
5434354343435...54345343434534...345
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#522834 - 01/06/09 12:48 AM Re: Fingering scales in double thirds
Horowitzian Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/18/08
Posts: 8453
 Quote:
Originally posted by jscomposer:
If you're as fast as your buddy Horowitz, you could play 'em all with the same two fingers! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qnla_5zrHAE (around 1:45) ;\) [/b]
Actually, those are not chromatic thirds (there are some earlier in the piece, though); but they might as well be. I've tried them, and they are difficult to pull off cleanly. Those are actually a series of 1st inversion chords on white keys.
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#522835 - 01/06/09 06:23 PM Re: Fingering scales in double thirds
Horowitzian Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/18/08
Posts: 8453
bump.
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#522836 - 01/06/09 08:02 PM Re: Fingering scales in double thirds
sotto voce Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/15/06
Posts: 6163
Loc: Briarcliff Manor, NY, USA
Have you taken a look at Chopin's 25/6? It won't necessarily help you with fingering for pure double-thirds scales (as there is a mixture of major thirds and minor thirds), but it's pretty interesting to compare many different editions and the diverse fingerings that are suggested.

The chief problem in execution of the ascending scales is how to treat the lower notes when they are two successive white keys. Many editors recommend using the thumb for both notes, but I find it easier to slide my index finger from the previous black key onto the first white key and then use my thumb on the second one.

As fun as this piece can be to play, it won't help with the left hand at all; for that, you'd have to go to the Godowsky transcription. \:\( )

Steven
_________________________

"There are two means of refuge from the miseries of life: music and cats."
—Albert Schweitzer

Chopin: Allegro de Concert Op. 46
Schumann: Toccata Op. 7
Fauré: Ballade Op. 19

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#522837 - 01/06/09 08:03 PM Re: Fingering scales in double thirds
jscomposer Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/27/08
Posts: 537
Loc: The Boogie Down
What piece of music are you trying to learn?
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Joshua Seth plays Joshua Seth

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#522838 - 01/06/09 08:04 PM Re: Fingering scales in double thirds
Horowitzian Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/18/08
Posts: 8453
No, but I will. Thanks for the suggestion! ;\)

I still would like some confirmation from someone knowledgeable on those Tausig fingerings before I drill any of them into my head... \:D

@ JScomposer: I'm just trying to learn scales in double thirds right now. \:\)
_________________________
Close only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades, and nuclear weapons.

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#522839 - 01/06/09 08:14 PM Re: Fingering scales in double thirds
jscomposer Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/27/08
Posts: 537
Loc: The Boogie Down
 Quote:
Originally posted by Horowitzian:
@ JScomposer: I'm just trying to learn scales in double thirds right now. \:\) [/b]
OK. So, what piece of music are you prepping for? Are you panning on writing something with such patterns? Or is this just for shits and giggles?
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#522840 - 01/06/09 08:15 PM Re: Fingering scales in double thirds
Horowitzian Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/18/08
Posts: 8453
\:D \:D


The Mazurka in Op. 44 has quite a few double thirds (and other intervals, too)

I might try my hand at the Chopin etude Steven mentioned once I get comfortable with a few scales.

And, yes, being a composer I might want to use some double thirds.
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#522841 - 01/07/09 06:28 AM Re: Fingering scales in double thirds
wr Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 7764
 Quote:
Originally posted by Horowitzian:
No, but I will. Thanks for the suggestion! ;\)

I still would like some confirmation from someone knowledgeable on those Tausig fingerings before I drill any of them into my head... \:D

[/b]
I asked more or less the same question here some time ago (and for more or less the same reason) and and got no response. Anyway, I have been using those fingerings for some months now and they seem okay. I got them from somewhere other than Tausig; I think they are pretty standard.

But if you want to get REALLY serious about thirds and other double-notes, take a look at Moszkowski's "School of Double Notes", op. 64.

I'm not serious enough to tackle that, but I have been supplementing scales with various etudes in thirds, too, to help keep from getting too fixated on just the scales and those particular fingerings.

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#522842 - 01/07/09 12:55 PM Re: Fingering scales in double thirds
Horowitzian Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/18/08
Posts: 8453
Thanks, wr!! I just needed to hear from someone who uses them. I'll check out the Moszkowski Op. 64 later, after I've gotten a better feel for double thirds. ;\)
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Close only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades, and nuclear weapons.

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#522843 - 01/07/09 01:05 PM Re: Fingering scales in double thirds
computerpro3 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/12/04
Posts: 367
Loc: Connecticut/Cincinnati
Look at Czerny Op. 740. There is an etude in double thirds. We had to do it as one of the pieces for our studio etude competition last year and it helped my thirds incredibly.

Here's a video of a kid that plays it decently

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMLSs1CepU8

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#522844 - 01/07/09 01:14 PM Re: Fingering scales in double thirds
Horowitzian Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/18/08
Posts: 8453
That looks like fun! Thanks for the suggestion. \:\)
_________________________
Close only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades, and nuclear weapons.

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#1989815 - 11/22/12 03:00 PM Re: Fingering scales in double thirds [Re: soccer_daemon]
Michael_99 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/28/12
Posts: 935
Loc: Canada Alberta
Thank you very for posting this awesome piano resource.

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#1989817 - 11/22/12 03:07 PM Re: Fingering scales in double thirds [Re: jscomposer]
Michael_99 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/28/12
Posts: 935
Loc: Canada Alberta
Wow, I have never teared up before watching any video. Thanks for helping my education.

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#1989821 - 11/22/12 03:17 PM Re: Fingering scales in double thirds [Re: Horowitzian]
Michael_99 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/28/12
Posts: 935
Loc: Canada Alberta
Wow, I have never teared up before watching any video. Thanks for helping my education. (Horowitz plays Carmen Fantasie)

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#1989882 - 11/22/12 06:29 PM Re: Fingering scales in double thirds [Re: Horowitzian]
dolce sfogato Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/29/10
Posts: 2626
Loc: Netherlands
there is so much difference between minor and major thirds, diatonical or chromatic, one hand /two hands, parallel motion/contrary motion, quick or slow, compare Chopin/Saint-Saēns/Scriabin/Debussy.
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Couperin pices, Ravel tombeau de C

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#1989908 - 11/22/12 08:47 PM Re: Fingering scales in double thirds [Re: Horowitzian]
DanS Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/28/12
Posts: 550
FWIW, I've found that practicing one voice legato and the other voice stacatto is very helpful for double thirds, double sixths, etc.
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"Most pianists are poor musicians, they dissect music into bits-and-pieces, like a roast chicken" -Debussy

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